Polar Arbitration II
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Polar Arbitration II
Damn - The original thread had wandered. . . . . and then later, was hijacked!.
Hopefully this thread will remain focused on Polar's multiple federally mediated arbitrations with AAWW management. . . . Not to be confused with the ALPA mediated Polar / 5Y / strike behavior dispute.
Polar's 3 separate federally mediated arbitrations were scheduled to each debut in order - October, November, and December.
Hopefully this thread will remain focused on Polar's multiple federally mediated arbitrations with AAWW management. . . . Not to be confused with the ALPA mediated Polar / 5Y / strike behavior dispute.
Polar's 3 separate federally mediated arbitrations were scheduled to each debut in order - October, November, and December.
Last edited by L-38; 8th Nov 2007 at 16:07.
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Obviously, there will be spin, but word on the street is one finding has been decided (expedited grievance), and another delayed until late "next year" (Holden review of previous findings).
Text, facts and spin (from both sides) will follow from those with access.
Text, facts and spin (from both sides) will follow from those with access.
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If it has been decided, it isn't out yet. I very seldom buy "the word on the street". Both grievances have been heard and the Nov 6th briefs have been submitted, so I would not be surprized if there is a decision.
I have two thoughts on grievances, the longer it takes for a decision the better it is for the plantiff. Usually it means a significant penalty for the company and the arbitrator is much more careful in making a decision that could cost the company a lot of dollars. That is what the Holden thing is all about now, money and jobs. That has been my experience anyway.
As for spin, what is there to say, it is either good, or bad, depending on who's side you are on. As I mentioned before, what is, is and that is it. Spin is only to make the bitter pill of the loser go down easier and, for one, am not going to get into that game.
I have two thoughts on grievances, the longer it takes for a decision the better it is for the plantiff. Usually it means a significant penalty for the company and the arbitrator is much more careful in making a decision that could cost the company a lot of dollars. That is what the Holden thing is all about now, money and jobs. That has been my experience anyway.
As for spin, what is there to say, it is either good, or bad, depending on who's side you are on. As I mentioned before, what is, is and that is it. Spin is only to make the bitter pill of the loser go down easier and, for one, am not going to get into that game.
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LL, the key players know the results. How and when they let the public know is up to them. They're probably waiting on the written findings to make comment.
As far as waiting, because the arbitration is leaning toward the plaintiff, well, if I had rendered a decision and felt someone was going around it, I would make a decision fast, just to make a point. I think he's hoping other actions will make this grievance null and void. If the merger were forced to go forward, there's no need for this to continue worrying about shifting equipment.
As far as waiting, because the arbitration is leaning toward the plaintiff, well, if I had rendered a decision and felt someone was going around it, I would make a decision fast, just to make a point. I think he's hoping other actions will make this grievance null and void. If the merger were forced to go forward, there's no need for this to continue worrying about shifting equipment.
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That is always a possibility I suppose. I worked grievance many years and it had been my expierience that anytime a decision will impact a party finacially, the arbitrator will take a long time in rendering a decision. I acutality it is "We're not happy until your not happy" scenario. Let's use this grievance as an example. The pilots and fe's want back pay for about a year and the return of their jobs. Face, it ain't gonna happen!
But, there will have to be (assuming the plantiff wins) some sort of monetary compensation. That could be very costly to the company so the arbitrator may try to take a middle ground. And that could take time with all the variables involved. Hence the company isn't happy because he has to pay something, and the plantiff isn't happy because he isn't going to get what he feels is just, nor his/her job back. Now let's look at the other side of the coin, ie, the company wins. It is basically a status quo position, no middle ground would have to be taken and the decision is fairly simple and quick. That is my take anyway.
Now as to who is right; I obviously, am on the Polar side, you just as obviously is on the Atlas side. But the only side that counts is the arbitrators side and what is, is. Let's hold our collective breath for the final result. Then it is all over amd the chips, where ever that they lay, give a little to boths sides. On that I think we can agree.
But, there will have to be (assuming the plantiff wins) some sort of monetary compensation. That could be very costly to the company so the arbitrator may try to take a middle ground. And that could take time with all the variables involved. Hence the company isn't happy because he has to pay something, and the plantiff isn't happy because he isn't going to get what he feels is just, nor his/her job back. Now let's look at the other side of the coin, ie, the company wins. It is basically a status quo position, no middle ground would have to be taken and the decision is fairly simple and quick. That is my take anyway.
Now as to who is right; I obviously, am on the Polar side, you just as obviously is on the Atlas side. But the only side that counts is the arbitrators side and what is, is. Let's hold our collective breath for the final result. Then it is all over amd the chips, where ever that they lay, give a little to boths sides. On that I think we can agree.
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LL Just shut the F)))) up
B, you know me. and I hate to get into our face about this topic but you are so off base it is driving me nuts. Let those of us who have some skin in this issue and credible information do the posting. Enjoy your new job, sit on the sidelines. Get off this thread.
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We lost but we won?
Lets see,
Atlas management gets to have their merger grievance done at first availability of the arbiter per the recent Nov 16th award of the arbiter and Bobb claims this as a win.
Wasn't this recent grievance at hand over if Atlas management has the right to have their original merger grievance heard before others at Polar? Isn't that what was just awarded by the arbiter?
I guess you have to think like Bobb or Robin to construe this as a win or is he just trying to put a flower on a cow turd for political reasons. Guess I'll have to dig up the award and post it. Maybe cptvac should post it since his name is on it.
Bobb's (probably Robin's) VARS in streaming audio:
Click Here for Streaming Mp3
Atlas management gets to have their merger grievance done at first availability of the arbiter per the recent Nov 16th award of the arbiter and Bobb claims this as a win.
Wasn't this recent grievance at hand over if Atlas management has the right to have their original merger grievance heard before others at Polar? Isn't that what was just awarded by the arbiter?
I guess you have to think like Bobb or Robin to construe this as a win or is he just trying to put a flower on a cow turd for political reasons. Guess I'll have to dig up the award and post it. Maybe cptvac should post it since his name is on it.
Bobb's (probably Robin's) VARS in streaming audio:
Click Here for Streaming Mp3
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Merc
Told you weeks ago that you (and the Whales) "may even like" the outcome. It seems you are pleased. Good.
The process will continue rambling along to a final conclusion, and we will all get our answers...whether you continue your anti "Bobbin" rant or not.
Told you weeks ago that you (and the Whales) "may even like" the outcome. It seems you are pleased. Good.
The process will continue rambling along to a final conclusion, and we will all get our answers...whether you continue your anti "Bobbin" rant or not.
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So, your saying you see no spin in the VARS and understand it?
I didn't say I was looking for Polar to lose, in fact, we would all be better off if Polar had won, in more ways than one.......
I didn't say I was looking for Polar to lose, in fact, we would all be better off if Polar had won, in more ways than one.......
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Understand? I sure do. Spin? One mans' spin gets another mans' grievance heard...understand ya'll have a backlog, too.
Don't get me wrong, would've loved to had won as much as you wanted us to, it was just not going to happen--now we are shopping arbitrators and Cato can't block OUR arbitrations anymore. Thats a good thing.
The Company was awarded an arbitration date in March. Though a bit unfair to Polars' Crewmembers with grievances, as good as we could hope for...and the merits are not going to change. Just got to take what we can get.
Honestly, the only spin I've seen is from the Company and Atlas parrots that claim we must have a "weak case". Once again, a complete failure to understand diligent representation of our membership...In this case Crewmembers whose grievances have not been heard now have a "new" procedure clarified that should keep everyone concerned busy for awhile getting them done...
Don't see why this would've been played any other way.
Don't get me wrong, would've loved to had won as much as you wanted us to, it was just not going to happen--now we are shopping arbitrators and Cato can't block OUR arbitrations anymore. Thats a good thing.
The Company was awarded an arbitration date in March. Though a bit unfair to Polars' Crewmembers with grievances, as good as we could hope for...and the merits are not going to change. Just got to take what we can get.
Honestly, the only spin I've seen is from the Company and Atlas parrots that claim we must have a "weak case". Once again, a complete failure to understand diligent representation of our membership...In this case Crewmembers whose grievances have not been heard now have a "new" procedure clarified that should keep everyone concerned busy for awhile getting them done...
Don't see why this would've been played any other way.
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Originally Posted by cptvac
Though a bit unfair to Polars' Crewmembers with grievances, as good as we could hope for...and the merits are not going to change. Just got to take what we can get.
Our backlog is due to the highest disciplinary actions in the ALPA membership which take priority above other grievances. That includes all of the US ALPA carriers. Done so just to log jamb the grievance process up on our other issues we want addressed. Unlike those of our sister union which they just don't schedule the arbitrations unless they are MEC grievances.
The biggest resolution to this is a combined merged CBA that hopefully has language in it for the System Board of Adjustments more conducive for labor. Otherwise, we both sit in stagnation.
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Merc
I agree with your post--though the "welcome" is a bit late, we've been combatting this for quite awhile ourselves. As for feeling lucky, NO that is how it is supposed to work--AAWH simply has no integrity...it is dysfunctional. And Mr. Flynn has taken ownership of these practices.
Guess the rub is that we've been accused by Management and the Atlas MEC of delaying the process when the reality is exactly what your post explained. Now why would one Labor group willfully misrepresent the facts to help Management strong-arm another Labor group? Troubling.
I agree with your post--though the "welcome" is a bit late, we've been combatting this for quite awhile ourselves. As for feeling lucky, NO that is how it is supposed to work--AAWH simply has no integrity...it is dysfunctional. And Mr. Flynn has taken ownership of these practices.
Guess the rub is that we've been accused by Management and the Atlas MEC of delaying the process when the reality is exactly what your post explained. Now why would one Labor group willfully misrepresent the facts to help Management strong-arm another Labor group? Troubling.
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Vac,
The Polaroids were welcomed to the group the day after Atlas Air Inc used the Atlas profits (which could have been used to pay Atlas Pilots profit sharing) to purchase Polar. Atlas pilots offered to put your then communications committee chair (Johnson?) on the Atlas communications committee and actually looked forward to sharing the pain with, and garnering help from, another group of ALPA pilots. Merc has been over the history several times with you and others - suffice to say that you spit in Atlas pilots faces. And have continued to do so. So if the second welcome was a long time coming you will just have to deal with it.
Your problem is that you have been combating this for a while yourselves as you claim, but at the expense of the Atlas pilots. Instead of working with the Atlas pilots you have chosen to alienate them.
You claim the Atlas pilots do not support you? And are in bed with management? Perhaps it is time you stepped back and took a look again at the history.
Polar had less than a months worth of cash left when Atlas bought them. Atlas upstreamed profits from Atlas Air to AAWWH to purchase Polar. You would not have a place to go to work if Atlas pilots had not been forced to sacrifice for you - beginning with that step. It has continued for the last four years. EVERYTHING you have gotten you have gotten at the Atlas pilots expense - EVERYTHING. Airplane, jobs, your pay raises (both the 3% and the 10%) came at the expense of the Atlas pilots. The one time you were asked to support Atlas pilots - your MEC chair conned us. You continually blame all of your problems on the Atlas pilots. And you continue to delay delay delay - keeping them from the contact they deserve. No Atlas pilot I know wants to merge with you. None that I know of want to fly or share the same cockpit with you.
If it is so terrible for you then maybe it is time you all vote with your feet and leave the Atlas Pilots to deal with Atlas management.
The Polaroids were welcomed to the group the day after Atlas Air Inc used the Atlas profits (which could have been used to pay Atlas Pilots profit sharing) to purchase Polar. Atlas pilots offered to put your then communications committee chair (Johnson?) on the Atlas communications committee and actually looked forward to sharing the pain with, and garnering help from, another group of ALPA pilots. Merc has been over the history several times with you and others - suffice to say that you spit in Atlas pilots faces. And have continued to do so. So if the second welcome was a long time coming you will just have to deal with it.
Your problem is that you have been combating this for a while yourselves as you claim, but at the expense of the Atlas pilots. Instead of working with the Atlas pilots you have chosen to alienate them.
You claim the Atlas pilots do not support you? And are in bed with management? Perhaps it is time you stepped back and took a look again at the history.
Polar had less than a months worth of cash left when Atlas bought them. Atlas upstreamed profits from Atlas Air to AAWWH to purchase Polar. You would not have a place to go to work if Atlas pilots had not been forced to sacrifice for you - beginning with that step. It has continued for the last four years. EVERYTHING you have gotten you have gotten at the Atlas pilots expense - EVERYTHING. Airplane, jobs, your pay raises (both the 3% and the 10%) came at the expense of the Atlas pilots. The one time you were asked to support Atlas pilots - your MEC chair conned us. You continually blame all of your problems on the Atlas pilots. And you continue to delay delay delay - keeping them from the contact they deserve. No Atlas pilot I know wants to merge with you. None that I know of want to fly or share the same cockpit with you.
If it is so terrible for you then maybe it is time you all vote with your feet and leave the Atlas Pilots to deal with Atlas management.
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Whale
Merc was clearly (though not for you, genious) "welcoming" us to the blocked arbitration situation of which we are well aware. And he gave a damn good explanation of it.
I spit in no ones face. I do not want to merge. I will leave when and if I damn well want to. Ditto on sharing a cockpit with you. Clear?
Merc was clearly (though not for you, genious) "welcoming" us to the blocked arbitration situation of which we are well aware. And he gave a damn good explanation of it.
I spit in no ones face. I do not want to merge. I will leave when and if I damn well want to. Ditto on sharing a cockpit with you. Clear?