Polar Arbitration II
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Vac,
I doubt that. Do you even have any "blocked" arbitration? Has your MEC ever taken any grievances to arb that were not scope grievances?
You excel at name calling and placing the blame and you give the appearance that you want to stay here. Yet you insist on blowing up the airline. This could be a great place to work; and the current management seems to want to negotiate. You need to get out of the dark ages and read a book on interest based negotiation. The merger is going to happen. No court in the land will allow a union to dictate managements business rights to them.
You don't have a case. So quit belly-aching and get on board - or quit. Either way the Atlas pilots are REALLY tired of the Polar crap and the source of all of the current troubles. When all is said and done He, Bobb, and you will probably quit anyways - so why not save all the pain and anguish and do it now.
I guess my question is if it is so terrible for you; If management sucks so bad; if you hate the Atlas pilots and the Atlas MEC so much then why do you stay?
I doubt that. Do you even have any "blocked" arbitration? Has your MEC ever taken any grievances to arb that were not scope grievances?
You excel at name calling and placing the blame and you give the appearance that you want to stay here. Yet you insist on blowing up the airline. This could be a great place to work; and the current management seems to want to negotiate. You need to get out of the dark ages and read a book on interest based negotiation. The merger is going to happen. No court in the land will allow a union to dictate managements business rights to them.
You don't have a case. So quit belly-aching and get on board - or quit. Either way the Atlas pilots are REALLY tired of the Polar crap and the source of all of the current troubles. When all is said and done He, Bobb, and you will probably quit anyways - so why not save all the pain and anguish and do it now.
I guess my question is if it is so terrible for you; If management sucks so bad; if you hate the Atlas pilots and the Atlas MEC so much then why do you stay?
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 19th Nov 2007 at 20:55.
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Whale
Thanks for your "expert" legal and bargaining advice, simplistic as it is.
And, uh, best of luck on Interest-Based Bargaining with Mr. Cato--guess you've never heard his rather outspoken opinion on the subject.
I do not hate anyone, nor have I ever said that I do. I do not even hate you Whale, despite that fact that you work for a different airline and yet repeatedly tell me to "quit", "get out of the way", and blame my airline for all that is wrong in your "world".
Namecalling? Would you find "Bonehead" offensive?
Thanks for your "expert" legal and bargaining advice, simplistic as it is.
And, uh, best of luck on Interest-Based Bargaining with Mr. Cato--guess you've never heard his rather outspoken opinion on the subject.
I do not hate anyone, nor have I ever said that I do. I do not even hate you Whale, despite that fact that you work for a different airline and yet repeatedly tell me to "quit", "get out of the way", and blame my airline for all that is wrong in your "world".
Namecalling? Would you find "Bonehead" offensive?
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Merc
Let me write this s-l-o-w-ly: I did not say anything about the Atlas membership. I said and still say your LEADERSHIP is in bed with Management and apparently that is OK with the membership. And, again, that is great. Just don't blame others for all your problems.
Please stop misrepresenting history...(I was in the room with Flynn and Henderson--saw nothing as you describe)...(You are insinuating that the Atlas leaderships' "tough" stands with Management have removed/installed multiple CEO's? Um, ok...). Please stop insulting Polar pilots...(I will NOT respond in kind.) And please stop trying to undermine Polar Leadership while they are representing my interests. There, I said "please".
Let me write this s-l-o-w-ly: I did not say anything about the Atlas membership. I said and still say your LEADERSHIP is in bed with Management and apparently that is OK with the membership. And, again, that is great. Just don't blame others for all your problems.
Please stop misrepresenting history...(I was in the room with Flynn and Henderson--saw nothing as you describe)...(You are insinuating that the Atlas leaderships' "tough" stands with Management have removed/installed multiple CEO's? Um, ok...). Please stop insulting Polar pilots...(I will NOT respond in kind.) And please stop trying to undermine Polar Leadership while they are representing my interests. There, I said "please".
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(I was in the room with Flynn and Henderson--saw nothing as you describe)
Was that the time you all wore your uniforms? lol - now that is funny. 3/4 of you had not turned a fan in years and you wear your uniforms to a meet and greet with the new boss?!? And you found nothing adversarial in that? Or in Bobb's opening comments to the boss? You truly are whacked.
How does Bobb's koolaid taste?
And if you construe the Atlas MEC having a relationship and the ability to talk to management as "being in bed with them" then I will take that any day over being alienated by management as well as the union leadership. After all, it is important to be able to at least talk to the guys who run the company.
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The point is that they didn't wear their uniforms to a meeting in an attempt to intimidate the new guy. They actually know how silly that would look as they haven't flown in about the same number of years as the Polaroid MEC.
Try to keep up here willya
Try to keep up here willya
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 20th Nov 2007 at 16:47. Reason: Previous Poster removed his post
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Just what are you bitching about Merc and Whale? Your are Atlas not Polar, so stop the vitriol against the Polar MEC and worry about your sorry contract. From what I hear it could use a lot of work.
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Man-o.man; someone definitely got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. How about getting back on subject and the arbitration. The decision has been made, who one or lost is a matter of perception. Now wait for the other which I understand is being heard soon. I may be furloughed but I still care. And personally; the Polar MEC has been outstanding and deserves a ton of credit.
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Just what are you bitching about Merc and Whale? Your are Atlas not Polar, so stop the vitriol against the Polar MEC and worry about your sorry contract. From what I hear it could use a lot of work.
Atlas has been without a contract, without a pay raise, without changes to their QOL now for two years - and the reason can be laid directly at Bobbrobins doorstep.
So Atlas pilots are worried about the sorry contract; and that is all they are worried about. You don't think for a moment that really WANT to merge with the Polaroids do you?
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EVERYTHING you have gotten you have gotten at the Atlas pilots expense - EVERYTHING. Airplane, jobs, your pay raises (both the 3% and the 10%) came at the expense of the Atlas pilots
You have one twisted view of 'reality' there bubba. FWIW without the Polar scheduled service there would've been no lender willing to provide DIP financing resulting in Atlas liquidating in 2003.
You have one twisted view of 'reality' there bubba. FWIW without the Polar scheduled service there would've been no lender willing to provide DIP financing resulting in Atlas liquidating in 2003.
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FWIW without the Polar scheduled service there would've been no lender willing to provide DIP financing resulting in Atlas liquidating in 2003.
No Polar = no bankruptcy.
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 20th Nov 2007 at 19:09.
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jumpseats
cptvac said
Well first, you don't need to be in uniform to jumpseat. And if you were trying to "SAVE" ALPA national some money it would be the first time in the history of your council.
Secondly most airlines require that you be in an active works status to jumpseat; in fact here is a quote from one airlines JS agreement: "Use of cockpit jumpseats is restricted to pilots, flight engineers, and aircraft dispatchers who are in an active work status. it will not be extended to contract employees, trainees, furloughed personnel, retirees, employees on leave of absence or sick leave." [emphasis theirs]
My guess is that full time UB is considered, at least for the airline quoted above, as a leave of absence - in any case most of you are not in an "active work status."
And for you personally here is another quote "OMC travel is restricted to personal use. No company business use of any kind, including crew movement is permitted."
Drink some more koolaid vac - you will feel better soon.
Your idiocy is beyond words. The Polar contingent jumpseated-at no expense to ALPA to see Mr. Flynn for his "meet and greet" and you jerk-offs bought train tickets and expensed them to ALPA...dressed in nice suits and pretended to be executives. Hint: Despite the nice rags, the Company continues to use you and the rest of the Atlas pilots as doormats. But if Dave and Paul and Phil and Tom feel better dressed up to go see Papa--thats OK with us. They looked real purty. Funny, never see Caputo dressed that way.
Note: After that meeting, I jumpseated into a trip after your Negotiating Committee canceled any further meetings...ya moron.
Note: After that meeting, I jumpseated into a trip after your Negotiating Committee canceled any further meetings...ya moron.
Secondly most airlines require that you be in an active works status to jumpseat; in fact here is a quote from one airlines JS agreement: "Use of cockpit jumpseats is restricted to pilots, flight engineers, and aircraft dispatchers who are in an active work status. it will not be extended to contract employees, trainees, furloughed personnel, retirees, employees on leave of absence or sick leave." [emphasis theirs]
My guess is that full time UB is considered, at least for the airline quoted above, as a leave of absence - in any case most of you are not in an "active work status."
And for you personally here is another quote "OMC travel is restricted to personal use. No company business use of any kind, including crew movement is permitted."
Drink some more koolaid vac - you will feel better soon.
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 21st Nov 2007 at 16:44.
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careful Rat,
<sarcasm follows>
Next thing you know your name and birthday will be on some list on the internet and you will be accused of every falsehood on the planet as well as "being in bed" with management.
<sarcasm follows>
Next thing you know your name and birthday will be on some list on the internet and you will be accused of every falsehood on the planet as well as "being in bed" with management.
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No Polar = no bankruptcy
How many hundreds of millions went missing? Who was fined by the SEC and unable to restate earnings for multiple years because the dog ate the documents.
Not the successful entity you dream of.
How many hundreds of millions went missing? Who was fined by the SEC and unable to restate earnings for multiple years because the dog ate the documents.
Not the successful entity you dream of.
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ahhh - another Polar person who insists on revisionist history. Here is the news release:
"4/3/2007
...The SEC investigation focused on matters arising during the period from 1999 to 2002, when AAWW was under different management and prior to the Company’s successful emergence from Chapter 11 bankruptcy in late July 2004. Since emerging from Chapter 11, AAWW has a new management team and a new board of directors. None of the present board of directors or members of senior management was a focus of the investigation.
Pursuant to the settlement, without admitting or denying the findings therein, AAWW agreed to an administrative order to cease and desist from committing or causing any violations and any future violations of federal securities laws and regulations relating to the filing of annual, quarterly and periodic reports with the SEC, maintaining appropriate books, records and accounts, and maintaining an internal system of accounting controls. The order does not impose any civil penalties or fines and does not include allegations of fraud..."
There was no fine, but your response is typical of the half truths and innuendo that Bobbrobin feed you for this forum.
As far as the SEC investigation, there may or may not have been any wrong doing by the same group of gomers that paid good money to buy a failing airline with a bad business model. They proved to the stakeholders what financial geniuses they are just by that huge mis-step.
The simple fact is that Atlas Air Inc. was accused of mis-reporting, or reporting improperly, something (or things) on their balance sheet. None of us knows what that was despite the rumors of parts valuation and JFK Polar mechanics kick-backs. It just as easily could be valuing Polar route authorities higher than they should be, valuing Polar "blue sky" or "good will" higher than it actually was, or maybe even someone who attended Bobb's school of business and thought that REVENUE was better than PROFITS.
The holding company was formed in Feb of 2001 and Atlas purchased Polar in Nov of 2001. That tragic event falls right in the middle of the period that the SEC had issues with. Why were they trying to make the company look better on paper? Oh yeah - to shore up the failed, non-integrated, scheduled service business model that they had just bought. PT Barnum said there is a sucker in every crowd. GE Capital saw AAWWH coming a mile away.
So once again, if there were No Polar, there would probably be NO ISSUES with the SEC and there certainly would be no need for BK or DIP financing..
But you go right ahead and believe Bobbrobin.
"4/3/2007
...The SEC investigation focused on matters arising during the period from 1999 to 2002, when AAWW was under different management and prior to the Company’s successful emergence from Chapter 11 bankruptcy in late July 2004. Since emerging from Chapter 11, AAWW has a new management team and a new board of directors. None of the present board of directors or members of senior management was a focus of the investigation.
Pursuant to the settlement, without admitting or denying the findings therein, AAWW agreed to an administrative order to cease and desist from committing or causing any violations and any future violations of federal securities laws and regulations relating to the filing of annual, quarterly and periodic reports with the SEC, maintaining appropriate books, records and accounts, and maintaining an internal system of accounting controls. The order does not impose any civil penalties or fines and does not include allegations of fraud..."
There was no fine, but your response is typical of the half truths and innuendo that Bobbrobin feed you for this forum.
As far as the SEC investigation, there may or may not have been any wrong doing by the same group of gomers that paid good money to buy a failing airline with a bad business model. They proved to the stakeholders what financial geniuses they are just by that huge mis-step.
The simple fact is that Atlas Air Inc. was accused of mis-reporting, or reporting improperly, something (or things) on their balance sheet. None of us knows what that was despite the rumors of parts valuation and JFK Polar mechanics kick-backs. It just as easily could be valuing Polar route authorities higher than they should be, valuing Polar "blue sky" or "good will" higher than it actually was, or maybe even someone who attended Bobb's school of business and thought that REVENUE was better than PROFITS.
The holding company was formed in Feb of 2001 and Atlas purchased Polar in Nov of 2001. That tragic event falls right in the middle of the period that the SEC had issues with. Why were they trying to make the company look better on paper? Oh yeah - to shore up the failed, non-integrated, scheduled service business model that they had just bought. PT Barnum said there is a sucker in every crowd. GE Capital saw AAWWH coming a mile away.
So once again, if there were No Polar, there would probably be NO ISSUES with the SEC and there certainly would be no need for BK or DIP financing..
But you go right ahead and believe Bobbrobin.
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 24th Nov 2007 at 15:33.
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"4/3/2007
...The SEC investigation focused on matters arising during the period from 1999 to 2002,
Why were they trying to make the company look better on paper? Oh yeah - to shore up the failed, non-integrated, scheduled service business model that they had just bought.
So once again, if there were No Polar, there would probably be NO ISSUES with the SEC
Last time I checked 1999 was 2 years prior to the Polar purchase.
...The SEC investigation focused on matters arising during the period from 1999 to 2002,
Why were they trying to make the company look better on paper? Oh yeah - to shore up the failed, non-integrated, scheduled service business model that they had just bought.
So once again, if there were No Polar, there would probably be NO ISSUES with the SEC
Last time I checked 1999 was 2 years prior to the Polar purchase.
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"4/3/2007
...The SEC investigation focused on matters arising during the period from 1999 to 2002,
...The SEC investigation focused on matters arising during the period from 1999 to 2002,
You don't for a minute think that Atlas just went shopping one day and said "hmmmmm.... I think I will buy Polar today" do you?
The whole structure of AAWW was set up to buy Polar. They announced the completion of the holding company in early 2001. That holding company certainly took some time to form, upstreaming money from Atlas, finding financing etc - so as I said the SEC allegations can be directly tied to the Polar purchase. It all happened during the same time frame.
so once again, No Polar = No Bankruptcy and No SEC investigation.
The problem with just posting what Bobbrobin tells you to is that you don't think for yourself. Bummer.
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 26th Nov 2007 at 21:07.
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so once again, No Polar = No Bankruptcy and No SEC investigation.
AAWH did not go bankrupt because they had no money. They went bankrupt because the top officers stole/hid/laundered so much of it that the company's outside auditors could not certify over 2 years' worth of the books! The only option available, if the company ever wanted to be relisted on any stock exchange, was to declare bankruptcy and get their "fresh start accounting" status.
I suppose it's possible that the planned Polar acquisition was PART of the cause, but far from the root or only cause. That was the corruption inherent in the Lorenzo-era company officers.