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Whale
Your bias is clouding your processing abilities...
The Polar MEC is not making anyone pay a price for anything. They continue to represent their membership.
The Atlas MEC has indeed climbed into bed with Management and, in my opinion, the Atlas Crewmembers are "paying the price" for their MECs brand of representation. As I indicated, if that is OK with them...fine. Just an observation.
You continue to minimize the Polar Crewmembers rights, and insist that they merge NOW or "get out of the way". Ummmm...no.
You are also welcome to quit. Best of luck to ya...don't let the door...etc.
We'll all get our answers soon enough.
Your bias is clouding your processing abilities...
The Polar MEC is not making anyone pay a price for anything. They continue to represent their membership.
The Atlas MEC has indeed climbed into bed with Management and, in my opinion, the Atlas Crewmembers are "paying the price" for their MECs brand of representation. As I indicated, if that is OK with them...fine. Just an observation.
You continue to minimize the Polar Crewmembers rights, and insist that they merge NOW or "get out of the way". Ummmm...no.
You are also welcome to quit. Best of luck to ya...don't let the door...etc.
We'll all get our answers soon enough.
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What Price are the Atlas Pilots paying - ahhh that's right no section 6 ability. No pay raise, no solution to quality of life issues. No solution to the AABO debacle. No solution to the Hotel and Travel issues. All of them created by Bobbrobin and their incessant delaying tactics.
Where is your "right not to merge" spelled out?
I am not minimizing Polar rights at all - "The-Right-Not-to-Merge" is simply not there. If you all were so sure you had this right then the arbitration would have been right at the top of the list. So get on with it. Quit sending every little thing to arbitrators and get to the meat of the problem. What's next? Will Bobbrobin decide to send the choice of a caterer to arbitration? How about the size of the coffee cups in the meeting room? Do they want the seating arrangements arbitrated too?
This is not about the average Polaroid rights - this is about the delaying tactics of Bobbrobin.
I don't insist that the merger happen. In fact I think it is horribly bad for the Atlas pilots - I only insist that Bobbrobbin let the process happen. Polar getting out of the way, and off the Atlas seniority list, would be a dream come true.
As I said before. If you don't want to merge then probably the first step would be to return all of the Atlas Aircraft to Atlas and give back the Atlas route authorities. Just like your strike, you continue to fight your battles with the company through the Atlas pilots. You use that Atlas pilots as a buffer because you are unable, unwilling, or maybe not smart enough to use the tools that would actually make an impact on managements decisions.
Where is your "right not to merge" spelled out?
I am not minimizing Polar rights at all - "The-Right-Not-to-Merge" is simply not there. If you all were so sure you had this right then the arbitration would have been right at the top of the list. So get on with it. Quit sending every little thing to arbitrators and get to the meat of the problem. What's next? Will Bobbrobin decide to send the choice of a caterer to arbitration? How about the size of the coffee cups in the meeting room? Do they want the seating arrangements arbitrated too?
This is not about the average Polaroid rights - this is about the delaying tactics of Bobbrobin.
I don't insist that the merger happen. In fact I think it is horribly bad for the Atlas pilots - I only insist that Bobbrobbin let the process happen. Polar getting out of the way, and off the Atlas seniority list, would be a dream come true.
As I said before. If you don't want to merge then probably the first step would be to return all of the Atlas Aircraft to Atlas and give back the Atlas route authorities. Just like your strike, you continue to fight your battles with the company through the Atlas pilots. You use that Atlas pilots as a buffer because you are unable, unwilling, or maybe not smart enough to use the tools that would actually make an impact on managements decisions.
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In total, I couldn't disagree with you more, Whale...
The good news: You are going to get your wish in exactly 1 week...we will "get on with it". You may even be happy with the outcome...ya just never know.
The good news: You are going to get your wish in exactly 1 week...we will "get on with it". You may even be happy with the outcome...ya just never know.
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Didn't think you could come up with anything that the Polar MEC has done in support of Atlas council and it's membership.
Actually, I made no personal attacks. That is what Bobb and Robin are doing. The truth does not make it a personal attack. But I guess that wasn't really the point - avoiding the questions asked of you was.
As to Bourne and Caputo not flying, they don't and don't profess that they do fly to their membership unlike Bobb Henderson does in select crowds. Bourne and Caputo are normally just ten taps of a phone pad away night and day - where I can't say that of Bobb Henderson and Polar MEC.
Anyhow, keeping those up to date here is a recent letter distributed to the Atlas membership after it's sending to Capt Prater President ALPA and the Executive Council.
IN PDF FORMAT 1 MB
Actually, I made no personal attacks. That is what Bobb and Robin are doing. The truth does not make it a personal attack. But I guess that wasn't really the point - avoiding the questions asked of you was.
As to Bourne and Caputo not flying, they don't and don't profess that they do fly to their membership unlike Bobb Henderson does in select crowds. Bourne and Caputo are normally just ten taps of a phone pad away night and day - where I can't say that of Bobb Henderson and Polar MEC.
Anyhow, keeping those up to date here is a recent letter distributed to the Atlas membership after it's sending to Capt Prater President ALPA and the Executive Council.
IN PDF FORMAT 1 MB
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Merc
You criticize Bobb and Robin for not flying...you criticize them for not being "reachable". You just keep nagging...Are you somebody's ex-wife? You are transparent and pointing that out is my only reason for engaging you. I am not here to answer any of your questions.
You post a letter from Mr. Bourne advocating on behalf of the Company.
I understand that this letter must mean something to you (and who knows, maybe to other Atlas Crewmembers). Good. Your MEC Chairman is articulating a position that blames others for the problems of his Crewmembers, dictated by the Company, immediately preceding an arbitration. I get it...politics...Bully for him.
Now, as a Polar Crewmember, I happen to disagree with his view of reality and just who has wronged the Atlas Crewmembers. But that just doesn't matter...the most I can say of this earth-shaking piece of "correspondence" is that it does not mean ANYTHING to me.
One week...then we can all get some answers. Like Whale, you might even like the outcome. This exchange won't change a thing--but I'm here for ya.
I just hope we Polaroids can reach Bobb and Robin between now and then...
You criticize Bobb and Robin for not flying...you criticize them for not being "reachable". You just keep nagging...Are you somebody's ex-wife? You are transparent and pointing that out is my only reason for engaging you. I am not here to answer any of your questions.
You post a letter from Mr. Bourne advocating on behalf of the Company.
I understand that this letter must mean something to you (and who knows, maybe to other Atlas Crewmembers). Good. Your MEC Chairman is articulating a position that blames others for the problems of his Crewmembers, dictated by the Company, immediately preceding an arbitration. I get it...politics...Bully for him.
Now, as a Polar Crewmember, I happen to disagree with his view of reality and just who has wronged the Atlas Crewmembers. But that just doesn't matter...the most I can say of this earth-shaking piece of "correspondence" is that it does not mean ANYTHING to me.
One week...then we can all get some answers. Like Whale, you might even like the outcome. This exchange won't change a thing--but I'm here for ya.
I just hope we Polaroids can reach Bobb and Robin between now and then...
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One week...then we can all get some answers. Like Whale, you might even like the outcome. This exchange won't change a thing--but I'm here for ya.
Because, of course, one assumes that Bobbrobin will have multiple BS grievances between now and the actual grievance to further delay the real issue. Lets see what he comes up with next. Perhaps a grievance to have all bald, angry men removed from negotiation. ....ooops that won't work. Then Robin would have to stay home. Well I am sure he will come up with something.
If you aren't here to answer questions then why are you here?
And as far as good news - that will only come when every Polaroid is removed from the ATLAS seniority list -- permanently.
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 16th Oct 2007 at 06:38.
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Whale
I said you MAY like the outcome...it could be a more rapid process than you indicated. Of course, maybe it won't...
I'm not on the Atlas Seniority list...can't be removed. But I am with you in spirit.
I said you MAY like the outcome...it could be a more rapid process than you indicated. Of course, maybe it won't...
I'm not on the Atlas Seniority list...can't be removed. But I am with you in spirit.
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Since atlas pays for your way to get to STN, is it only from USA to STN??? Or can you live in europe and have atlas buy you a ticket to get to STN. For example, say if i live in LED, will atlas buy me a ticket LED-STN???
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If you live in Europe, I believe you fall into the SPP program. Self Pre Positioning or something like that.
That means they will pay for an equivalent cost of a ticket from STN to the initial start of your pattern since there is no flying out of STN and all interim travel on that pattern. If that is STN to FRA as a DH, your going to get the cost equivalence of what a Ryan Air or any other budget carrier to FRA from STN. That is what the charge is before the weight and other add ons that they do. If you live in Europe, it is a little tough to start a trip in another part of Europe under that. If your pattern starts in someplace outside of Europe, like DXB, then your doing OK with a business class ticket there or DH on company A/C.
That means they will pay for an equivalent cost of a ticket from STN to the initial start of your pattern since there is no flying out of STN and all interim travel on that pattern. If that is STN to FRA as a DH, your going to get the cost equivalence of what a Ryan Air or any other budget carrier to FRA from STN. That is what the charge is before the weight and other add ons that they do. If you live in Europe, it is a little tough to start a trip in another part of Europe under that. If your pattern starts in someplace outside of Europe, like DXB, then your doing OK with a business class ticket there or DH on company A/C.
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Slightly off thread, but does anyone know why there have been several recent Atlas 747s at MAN? It seems like 3 in the last week.
Are they bringing in, or taking away?
Any idea what the cargo is, what the origin or destinations of the flights are, and whether it's going to be a regular thing?
Are they bringing in, or taking away?
Any idea what the cargo is, what the origin or destinations of the flights are, and whether it's going to be a regular thing?
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Thanks Bobb and Robin, on behalf of all of us crewmembers looking to get on with the show and get fixes, new pay scales, longevity scales, into a combined merged contract. Bobb and Robin know better. I forgot, great job on that last section 6. What was that, an 18 month contract with essentially the same bag of money that was on the table before the strike, just distributed differently?
Regrettably, a true statement about the strike but no different than the STN travel on the one hand but giving up jumpseat positioning on the other.
There will be no fix, no new payscales until the end of a 30 day clock is in view. I just doubt the Atlas MEC and overall pilot ranks has the stomach for it. That is where the blame lies and not with Polar
Regrettably, a true statement about the strike but no different than the STN travel on the one hand but giving up jumpseat positioning on the other.
There will be no fix, no new payscales until the end of a 30 day clock is in view. I just doubt the Atlas MEC and overall pilot ranks has the stomach for it. That is where the blame lies and not with Polar
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Originally Posted by Furloughed
Thanks Bobb and Robin, on behalf of all of us crewmembers looking to get on with the show and get fixes, new pay scales, longevity scales, into a combined merged contract. Bobb and Robin know better. I forgot, great job on that last section 6. What was that, an 18 month contract with essentially the same bag of money that was on the table before the strike, just distributed differently?
Regrettably, a true statement about the strike but no different than the STN travel on the one hand but giving up jumpseat positioning on the other.
There will be no fix, no new payscales until the end of a 30 day clock is in view. I just doubt the Atlas MEC and overall pilot ranks has the stomach for it. That is where the blame lies and not with Polar
Regrettably, a true statement about the strike but no different than the STN travel on the one hand but giving up jumpseat positioning on the other.
There will be no fix, no new payscales until the end of a 30 day clock is in view. I just doubt the Atlas MEC and overall pilot ranks has the stomach for it. That is where the blame lies and not with Polar
After Atlas crewmembers experienced the help from the Polar MEC side that pledged solidarity and then the Polar MEC requested relief from that pledge of "not flying Atlas A/C and contracts" when it came down to the eleventh hour of the Atlas strike countdown, I can see why Atlas crewmembers do not have the stomach for it. Let's see, Polar volunteering to scab and AACS all willing to fly our A/C and routes let alone the non union carriers that were contracted on the side. Probably being smart more than not having the stomach for it as you suggest. Especially after the Polar MEC showed their true colors volunteering Polar's membership to scab at the eleventh hour.
VS
The Atlas membership going on a sympathy strike despite all of the previous sabotaging actions by the Polar MEC to Atlas crewmembers showed more stomach than anything demonstrated by Polar. A sympathy strike in which we were ordered back to work by the federal court. No other carrier did that for you, only Atlas. Atlas crewmembers showed a lot of stomach and solidarity. Only to be rewarded by another knife in the back for their efforts. Exampled here in streaming MP3 HERE (back in Jan 2007) or Right Click Here and Save As.
Scorecard wise, I have yet to see any real effort on the Polar side to get along with others as a union. More of a What have you done for me today attitude. Can you produce anything otherwise? I mean in action and not in words. We at Atlas now know that Polar's words mean nothing when it comes down to living up to them.
Are you listening Astar guys? Watch your backs.
It appears that the Bobb Henderson and Robin Hair show have you geared only towards a Section 6 negotiation that will lead to a repeat of the past Atlas and Polar actions again. Except I doubt that the Atlas side will do more than what is legally required by them. No voluntary sympathy strikes as we did for you in the past. We have seen what that has gotten us. I'm sure Polar will repeat their volunteering to fly our stuff again if we have to strike.
So it seems to be true that Polar has a short and selective memory.
Should the merger get blocked through this latest tactic by the Polar MEC and section 6 negotiations start, we will be repeating history except there will be no support. Not that Polar side provided any for the other union anyway.
Having said this, I have a hard time believing an arbiter finding for Polar in these arbitrations. Time will tell.
All of this over the "follow the flying" which was already decided by an arbitration of the seniority lists earlier this year.
Scorecard wise, I have yet to see any real effort on the Polar side to get along with others as a union. More of a What have you done for me today attitude. Can you produce anything otherwise? I mean in action and not in words. We at Atlas now know that Polar's words mean nothing when it comes down to living up to them.
Are you listening Astar guys? Watch your backs.
It appears that the Bobb Henderson and Robin Hair show have you geared only towards a Section 6 negotiation that will lead to a repeat of the past Atlas and Polar actions again. Except I doubt that the Atlas side will do more than what is legally required by them. No voluntary sympathy strikes as we did for you in the past. We have seen what that has gotten us. I'm sure Polar will repeat their volunteering to fly our stuff again if we have to strike.
So it seems to be true that Polar has a short and selective memory.
Should the merger get blocked through this latest tactic by the Polar MEC and section 6 negotiations start, we will be repeating history except there will be no support. Not that Polar side provided any for the other union anyway.
Having said this, I have a hard time believing an arbiter finding for Polar in these arbitrations. Time will tell.
All of this over the "follow the flying" which was already decided by an arbitration of the seniority lists earlier this year.
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Merc
Since you are the source of all information for both pilot groups, when can we expect you to post the eleventh hour resolution put before the Executive Council this week? Though it further undermined your MEC's credibility at ALPA, fairness dictates that you share...
Since you are the source of all information for both pilot groups, when can we expect you to post the eleventh hour resolution put before the Executive Council this week? Though it further undermined your MEC's credibility at ALPA, fairness dictates that you share...
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Which one?
Vac,
Since you have never been to an EC we assume that it is Robin that has questions? I am not sure why he is turning to us for the info but we are happy to oblige. So which resolution? The one that was actually requested by some EC members demanding the merger proceed; or the one for the battle stars commending the Atlas pilots for their secondary strike help during the Polar strike.
Merc or I would be happy to explain whichever one Robin doesn't understand.
Since you have never been to an EC we assume that it is Robin that has questions? I am not sure why he is turning to us for the info but we are happy to oblige. So which resolution? The one that was actually requested by some EC members demanding the merger proceed; or the one for the battle stars commending the Atlas pilots for their secondary strike help during the Polar strike.
Merc or I would be happy to explain whichever one Robin doesn't understand.
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 28th Oct 2007 at 17:14.
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cptvac,
I don't have the resolutions, but I don't think I have posted any resolutions in the past for or against Atlas or Polar. Only commented on some. So I don't think I have been biased. I don't generally go to the EC's since it would be on my own dime. I have yet to come across anyone willing to snag me a copy of any. Feel free to have Robin send me them for posting. Preferably in PDF format. They will be fact checked though. It wouldn't be the first time he had a document that change after leaving his hands (buried in the Seniority Arbitration Transcripts Click Here OR Right Click and "Save As" (txt format))
Kind of funny and a shame, most on the EC thought Robin Hair was part of the Polar MEC until just recently. Too bad your whole MEC (to include the Vice MEC and Sect. Treas) can't show up for them. I guess they are not part of the trusted group ordained by Robin Hair and Bobb Henderson.
As to the resolutions submitted by Atlas, I believe both passed eventually. The one urging Polar to move on with the merger required a rewrite before passing I believe and the Battle Stars one without a rewrite.
Now, since your so full of questions and have side stepped mine in the past a couple of times. Why don't you answer this:
Please, do tell and have some proof of the "self serving choices" of the Atlas MEC. I know of a number of selfless acts of support for Polar by the Atlas MEC and membership that went rewarded with only a campaign of hate and scapegoating by the Polar MEC.
Off the top of my head, I can't remember a time Polar reciprocated any support unless it was of a direct benefit to themselves. Could you please refresh my memory of any?
I don't have the resolutions, but I don't think I have posted any resolutions in the past for or against Atlas or Polar. Only commented on some. So I don't think I have been biased. I don't generally go to the EC's since it would be on my own dime. I have yet to come across anyone willing to snag me a copy of any. Feel free to have Robin send me them for posting. Preferably in PDF format. They will be fact checked though. It wouldn't be the first time he had a document that change after leaving his hands (buried in the Seniority Arbitration Transcripts Click Here OR Right Click and "Save As" (txt format))
Kind of funny and a shame, most on the EC thought Robin Hair was part of the Polar MEC until just recently. Too bad your whole MEC (to include the Vice MEC and Sect. Treas) can't show up for them. I guess they are not part of the trusted group ordained by Robin Hair and Bobb Henderson.
As to the resolutions submitted by Atlas, I believe both passed eventually. The one urging Polar to move on with the merger required a rewrite before passing I believe and the Battle Stars one without a rewrite.
Now, since your so full of questions and have side stepped mine in the past a couple of times. Why don't you answer this:
Originally Posted by mercpc9
Originally Posted by cptvac
You continue to demonize and blame the Polar MEC for the self-serving choices your own MEC has made. The Atlas MEC has climbed into bed with Mr. Cato, and Atlas crewmembers are paying the price.
You continue to demonize and blame the Polar MEC for the self-serving choices your own MEC has made. The Atlas MEC has climbed into bed with Mr. Cato, and Atlas crewmembers are paying the price.
Off the top of my head, I can't remember a time Polar reciprocated any support unless it was of a direct benefit to themselves. Could you please refresh my memory of any?
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Merc----
I am not a Polaroid or an Atlas guy---Just an outsider. My curiosity in the Atlas/Polar feud is only why you are so compulsive, diabolical, demeaning, and laser-like in your hatred to the Polar folks. That is the impression I get from your postings.
Frankly, I just don't understand. Seems like the Polaroids want to go their own way and that, based upon your past opinings, is fine with the Atlas guys.
So why all the vitroilic comments? Why do you persist in your quest to debunk, undermine, meddle, and counter any processes that are in play?
I picture you as a drunk who has no life and who only lives vicariously through the internent. It is the only explanation that I can conger up that seems to give you a sense of purpose to your existence (whatever purpose that may be) to go on, to go to bed, to wake up the next day, and to renew again the onslaught. WHY?
What is it that you are trying accomplish?
I am not a Polaroid or an Atlas guy---Just an outsider. My curiosity in the Atlas/Polar feud is only why you are so compulsive, diabolical, demeaning, and laser-like in your hatred to the Polar folks. That is the impression I get from your postings.
Frankly, I just don't understand. Seems like the Polaroids want to go their own way and that, based upon your past opinings, is fine with the Atlas guys.
So why all the vitroilic comments? Why do you persist in your quest to debunk, undermine, meddle, and counter any processes that are in play?
I picture you as a drunk who has no life and who only lives vicariously through the internent. It is the only explanation that I can conger up that seems to give you a sense of purpose to your existence (whatever purpose that may be) to go on, to go to bed, to wake up the next day, and to renew again the onslaught. WHY?
What is it that you are trying accomplish?
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Merc
You have ordained yourself (with Whale) as the only reliable sources of info for all pilots Polar and Atlas...just thought we could keep that flow of information...uh...flowing. Can't say I'm really full of questions--just cynical commentary. Sidestep? More like completely disregard.
Turns out neither resolution was adopted...how and when they were presented is fascinating though...best that comes from your "fact-checkers" directly.
As for the rest, it just wouldn't be a Merc (Atlas MEC) post if it didn't blame Robin (or Bobb) for something...anything...everything.
As for doing us favors...please, you've done enough. We just don't deserve this much love.
You have ordained yourself (with Whale) as the only reliable sources of info for all pilots Polar and Atlas...just thought we could keep that flow of information...uh...flowing. Can't say I'm really full of questions--just cynical commentary. Sidestep? More like completely disregard.
Turns out neither resolution was adopted...how and when they were presented is fascinating though...best that comes from your "fact-checkers" directly.
As for the rest, it just wouldn't be a Merc (Atlas MEC) post if it didn't blame Robin (or Bobb) for something...anything...everything.
As for doing us favors...please, you've done enough. We just don't deserve this much love.