Atlas STN
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A bit curt there flight Idol.
Atlas is hiring. All new hires are doomed to STN but will be on the ALPA union contract and seniority list. And so it makes sense for management to look for people who want to work for Atlas and be in STN. Who knows, maybe they will hire all 3 of them.
Atlas is hiring. All new hires are doomed to STN but will be on the ALPA union contract and seniority list. And so it makes sense for management to look for people who want to work for Atlas and be in STN. Who knows, maybe they will hire all 3 of them.
Sorry.......did not mean to sound curt and definitly not towards the original poster!
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Originally Posted by what_goes_up
Hi guys
Seen an ad that Atlas is recruiting in STN.
Any infos about T&C's and rosters?
Thanks
W_G_U
Seen an ad that Atlas is recruiting in STN.
Any infos about T&C's and rosters?
Thanks
W_G_U
Here is the Atlas ALPA contract (CBA) IN PDF FORMAT. I didn't attach all of the recent LOA's that go with it. Just the more recent one's on STN. Those are at the end of the file.
The STN base was originally a union busting operation that grew to almost 200 non-union pilots while furloughing the same or more ALPA members on the US side and it was also an attempt to side step the wet leasing laws in the UK. The UK CAA didn't go for the latter and then Atlas created GSS and gave 51 percent stock to a EU citizen. Atlas still leases everything that GSS uses to them to this day. So Atlas got around that also.
AACS (or now known as AABO) continues as a piece of leverage for management against ALPA labor. It is still a very sore spot at the moment with the Atlas crews and I doubt AABO will last through the Atlas/Polar merger that is currently ongoing. At least in it's current form. I don't expect them to get canned, but they won't be enjoying their current rewards for their past actions.
As leverage, the company is constantly doing base realignments and displacing our ALPA guys from their US bases to STN to avoid giving them gateway rights. Many of the STN crew members end up doing US based flying in the end anyway because of these displacements for negotiations instead of base needs. That's the leverage thing that is going on at the moment. The remaining AABO crewmembers is about 60 to 70 guys. They get a lot of the priority in upgrades, super seniority in the STN base and pay for their service to be our replacements. They were "replacements" because they hired at least one AACS guy for every furloughed ALPA guy during their ramping up.
mercpc9
Last edited by mercpc9; 19th Apr 2007 at 02:38.
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"because they hired at least one AACS guy for every furloughed ALPA guy during their ramping up"
Don't forget that AACS hired non ALPA members because AAWWH crewmembers refused the STN basing.
Don't forget that AACS hired non ALPA members because AAWWH crewmembers refused the STN basing.
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Originally Posted by 5Y744
Don't forget that AACS hired non ALPA members because AAWWH crewmembers refused the STN basing.
I think most would recognize this as union busting "101" and others would blindly just see it as a quick way to a heavy jet and to be a captain at others expense.
I believe only 19 total Atlas crewmembers jumped over to STN for out of seniority upgrades of 600 crew members. I believe the ex CEO R.S called them the "Courageous 19". There are only 7 of them left now.
So as we stand now, STN is still a thorn in the union's side that management tweaks. All hiring now requires the employees to be under the Atlas CBA and seniority list. No more crew leasing guys like AACS (AABO) in STN or at any other base worldwide. AABO is dying on the vine. When management realizes STN and AACS is no longer useful as leverage, they may move the base somewhere useful. Currently, as in the past, there are no Atlas A/C flying through the STN base. Moving it to AMS or PIK would be more meaningfull operationally, but that would negate all of the STN LOA's leverage against the union on STN and management is not ready for that yet.
Last edited by mercpc9; 20th Apr 2007 at 02:24.
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It would be shame if this thread deteriorates into an Atlas ALPA/AABO squabble. Just a few voices made all of the Atlas and Polar crews look like idiots in the recently closed thread, and it should not be allowed to happen again.
In my opinion most of the Atlas pilots (of which I am one) feel that management over the years has lied to pretty much everyone about what the STN/AACS operation was about, including the AACS pilots and engineers during their interviews.
For those reading this who are not part of the Atlas “family’, the reality is that most of us fly together, eat together and have beer together in mixed crews with no problems. That said, the structure is gravely flawed and needs to be changed, probably in a manner that puts all of us on the same contract/representation/seniority list. Otherwise certain individual managers will continue to try to play us off against each other.
Again, IMO.
In my opinion most of the Atlas pilots (of which I am one) feel that management over the years has lied to pretty much everyone about what the STN/AACS operation was about, including the AACS pilots and engineers during their interviews.
For those reading this who are not part of the Atlas “family’, the reality is that most of us fly together, eat together and have beer together in mixed crews with no problems. That said, the structure is gravely flawed and needs to be changed, probably in a manner that puts all of us on the same contract/representation/seniority list. Otherwise certain individual managers will continue to try to play us off against each other.
Again, IMO.
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Hello All.
I am also interested in rostering, T and C, and pay at Atlas and Polar. I am at least a year or more away from the minimums only averaging 30h/mo lately so I won’t be getting an interview soon. I am just continuing my research as I want my next job to be at Atlas or Polar. Is it still true you can commute from anywhere in the world?
Thanks for all the help.
RSull
I am also interested in rostering, T and C, and pay at Atlas and Polar. I am at least a year or more away from the minimums only averaging 30h/mo lately so I won’t be getting an interview soon. I am just continuing my research as I want my next job to be at Atlas or Polar. Is it still true you can commute from anywhere in the world?
Thanks for all the help.
RSull
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rsull:
The truth is…who knows? There is a new CEO, there is the DHL deal in the works, there is going to be a merger and arbitration of the Atlas/Polar contracts, there is the AABO/ALPA situation, and probably half a dozen other wild cards that I am just too tired to list.
I would advise against setting one’s sights on Atlas for the simple reason that things are too fluid. However watching from the sideline should be entertaining.
The truth is…who knows? There is a new CEO, there is the DHL deal in the works, there is going to be a merger and arbitration of the Atlas/Polar contracts, there is the AABO/ALPA situation, and probably half a dozen other wild cards that I am just too tired to list.
I would advise against setting one’s sights on Atlas for the simple reason that things are too fluid. However watching from the sideline should be entertaining.
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Just to add a note...Guys that have moved over to Europe for the STN base have done very well. There are tax advantages, QOL when you live there is much better, and there are areas were the cost of living isn't bad. A few have settled in Nice, and loved it.
If your single, or just a couple, it could be a heck of an adventure.
If your single, or just a couple, it could be a heck of an adventure.
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Originally Posted by 742
That said, the structure is gravely flawed and needs to be changed, probably in a manner that puts all of us on the same contract/representation/seniority list. Otherwise certain individual managers will continue to try to play us off against each other.
I agree.
It's kind of ironic or a turn in events that management recently used the ALPA represented pilots as leverage against the AABO cadre with their new employment contracts. Management (Jim Cato and Richard Rolland) put forth - "either sign the new contracts (read pay/cond cuts) or management would have to find a new more economically feasable base other than STN like AMS in the EU. By-the-way, if the base moves - then all of the LOA's on STN protecting AABO are gone and you AABO guys must enter into the ALPA system seniority list and contract." They voted immediately to take the cuts rather than become junior FO's in the system seniority list/union that they had been used as a tool against since their invention save for about 5 votes from the Atlas cross overs which have protected seniority on the ALPA list.
Originally Posted by rsull
Is it still true you can commute from anywhere in the world?
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Here is a copy/paste from another web board composed by a former Atlas guy. It says it all!!!!!
I recently left Atlas because the working conditions and quality of life sucked. I left within two years of being hired and so did all but 2 of the 14 hired in my class. Atlas is not hiring due to growth, they are hiring because of attrition.
Admittedly I was naive about Atlas when I accepted the interview and I foolishly believed the information I got from the person conducting the interview (MBSCP).
I was told to expect to be based in STN for 12 months max and that there were plenty of Atlas flights between the US and STN to get me to work. I was also told they would "work with me" in order to get me to my assignment. Also, I was told the most I’d be away from home was 17 days. None of that proved to be true.
In my opinion here are the problems with Atlas:
STN:
You will be based in STN which is about an hour train ride ($40 each way) or two hour bus ride ($30 each way) outside of London. Currently you need about 6 year’s seniority to hold a US base. Atlas does not operate any flights out of or into STN, yet it is a crew base that is growing (more displacements).
As a US passport holder, when clearing immigration and passport control in the UK, you will be asked why you are coming to the UK. If you tell them you are based in STN and are going to work, you will be detained (work permit? What work permit. My company didn’t tell me I needed one.) This happens pretty frequently until you figure out the “right” answers to the questions.
Being on reserve (standby as Atlas calls it) is an expensive proposition. I spent anywhere from $36 a night at a hostel (not very dignified for a mid-thirties, college educated professional airline pilot) to $150 a night at the Radisson STN while on standby. A few of my class mates quit early on because they were spending more on hotels than they were earning in salary.
Jumpseating back and forth to Europe is very difficult, especially in the summer when the loads are heavy. The European gate/ticket agents and passport control people are not very familiar with the whole concept of jumpseating. FedEx, UPS, and American do not allow Atlas pilots to jumpseat internationally. So you are somewhat limited on your choices. I mostly used United and they were fantastic (business class every time). Northwest’s policy is to put you in coach even if business class has open seats. Only once did the crew let me sit in business class. In addition you have to carefully choose your flights when leaving Europe. Even if there are multiple flights going to the US within a fairly close time period, you can’t just run from one gate to the next like you can domestically. You have to re-pay the departure tax at the ticket counter or transfer desk and then clear security and passport control. Also, Delta won’t take you unless you “check in” 90 minutes prior to scheduled departure time. MaxJet goes directly to STN so they are a pretty good option, unless they cancel.
When it comes time for your PC/PT recurrent training, don’t be surprised if you have to go to LHR instead of MIA. Since you are based in STN you have to get there on your own and pay for your hotel.
It’s not impossible, and many people do it, but the commute to STN is extremely stressful.
Schedules:
The schedules are not very marriage/family friendly. I averaged 22-23 days away from home. You owe the company 17 days a calendar month, but they are allowed to take four addition days every month to “protect the operation”. It happens all the time. My longest trip was 26 days. Also quite frequently trips get carried over into the following month. Once you are stuck in that “bidding cycle” it is difficult to get out. Atlas uses PBS for bidding monthly schedules and it seems there is very little transparency to the system. Having PBS and being junior blows.
Politics and Corporate Culture:
There are numerous factions within the pilot group: ALPA Atlas STN, Non-ALPA Atlas STN, AABO STN, GSS, Atlas JFK/ANC/LAX/MIA (with gateway travel), Polar and now DHL (ASTAR and ABX). It’s an absolute mess. Divide and conquer at its finest.
The culture of the training department was pretty surprising to me. I’ve been through enough training events in my career (6 transport category aircraft, 4 type ratings, no busts) to know. It was pretty disheartening to see guys “wash out” during initial training. What bothered me the most was the “pride” the training department seemed to take in the bust rate. There are a few really good guys in the training department, but unfortunately they are outnumbered.
Despite all of the above, I don’t regret my time at Atlas. I traveled the world (circled the globe on my first trip), I got typed in the 747-400, and experienced many cultures. But in the end the negatives outweighed the positives and so I quit…leaving an opportunity for the next sucker.
I recently left Atlas because the working conditions and quality of life sucked. I left within two years of being hired and so did all but 2 of the 14 hired in my class. Atlas is not hiring due to growth, they are hiring because of attrition.
Admittedly I was naive about Atlas when I accepted the interview and I foolishly believed the information I got from the person conducting the interview (MBSCP).
I was told to expect to be based in STN for 12 months max and that there were plenty of Atlas flights between the US and STN to get me to work. I was also told they would "work with me" in order to get me to my assignment. Also, I was told the most I’d be away from home was 17 days. None of that proved to be true.
In my opinion here are the problems with Atlas:
STN:
You will be based in STN which is about an hour train ride ($40 each way) or two hour bus ride ($30 each way) outside of London. Currently you need about 6 year’s seniority to hold a US base. Atlas does not operate any flights out of or into STN, yet it is a crew base that is growing (more displacements).
As a US passport holder, when clearing immigration and passport control in the UK, you will be asked why you are coming to the UK. If you tell them you are based in STN and are going to work, you will be detained (work permit? What work permit. My company didn’t tell me I needed one.) This happens pretty frequently until you figure out the “right” answers to the questions.
Being on reserve (standby as Atlas calls it) is an expensive proposition. I spent anywhere from $36 a night at a hostel (not very dignified for a mid-thirties, college educated professional airline pilot) to $150 a night at the Radisson STN while on standby. A few of my class mates quit early on because they were spending more on hotels than they were earning in salary.
Jumpseating back and forth to Europe is very difficult, especially in the summer when the loads are heavy. The European gate/ticket agents and passport control people are not very familiar with the whole concept of jumpseating. FedEx, UPS, and American do not allow Atlas pilots to jumpseat internationally. So you are somewhat limited on your choices. I mostly used United and they were fantastic (business class every time). Northwest’s policy is to put you in coach even if business class has open seats. Only once did the crew let me sit in business class. In addition you have to carefully choose your flights when leaving Europe. Even if there are multiple flights going to the US within a fairly close time period, you can’t just run from one gate to the next like you can domestically. You have to re-pay the departure tax at the ticket counter or transfer desk and then clear security and passport control. Also, Delta won’t take you unless you “check in” 90 minutes prior to scheduled departure time. MaxJet goes directly to STN so they are a pretty good option, unless they cancel.
When it comes time for your PC/PT recurrent training, don’t be surprised if you have to go to LHR instead of MIA. Since you are based in STN you have to get there on your own and pay for your hotel.
It’s not impossible, and many people do it, but the commute to STN is extremely stressful.
Schedules:
The schedules are not very marriage/family friendly. I averaged 22-23 days away from home. You owe the company 17 days a calendar month, but they are allowed to take four addition days every month to “protect the operation”. It happens all the time. My longest trip was 26 days. Also quite frequently trips get carried over into the following month. Once you are stuck in that “bidding cycle” it is difficult to get out. Atlas uses PBS for bidding monthly schedules and it seems there is very little transparency to the system. Having PBS and being junior blows.
Politics and Corporate Culture:
There are numerous factions within the pilot group: ALPA Atlas STN, Non-ALPA Atlas STN, AABO STN, GSS, Atlas JFK/ANC/LAX/MIA (with gateway travel), Polar and now DHL (ASTAR and ABX). It’s an absolute mess. Divide and conquer at its finest.
The culture of the training department was pretty surprising to me. I’ve been through enough training events in my career (6 transport category aircraft, 4 type ratings, no busts) to know. It was pretty disheartening to see guys “wash out” during initial training. What bothered me the most was the “pride” the training department seemed to take in the bust rate. There are a few really good guys in the training department, but unfortunately they are outnumbered.
Despite all of the above, I don’t regret my time at Atlas. I traveled the world (circled the globe on my first trip), I got typed in the 747-400, and experienced many cultures. But in the end the negatives outweighed the positives and so I quit…leaving an opportunity for the next sucker.
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The above post hits the nail on the head. Well said. "MBSCP" is our chief pilot that sat across from us, on managements side of the table, during our first contract negotiations. He's had his job for a very long time, if that tells you anything.