Polar/Atlas @ EINN
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You must be an Atlas employee who can't accept Atlas's financial situation and have no one elso to blame but Polar.
Question is who's running the show?
Its surely not Polar management.
Polar is going where Atlas is taking them. Nowhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No need to blame Polar for anything!
Its all aawh.
Question is who's running the show?
Its surely not Polar management.
Polar is going where Atlas is taking them. Nowhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No need to blame Polar for anything!
Its all aawh.
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Well lets see.
Chowdry's BBJ was a lease, and a mighty good one at that. In fact Boeing just about GAVE him the thing. The Albatross was bought with his own money.
I any case the 600 mil that Atlas had in the bank was after Chowdry passed away but before Atlas bought Polar. The proof that Polar is AAWH downfall is obvious to anyone who can read and understand an 8k or 10k report.
AAWH is going down the tubes and has been since they bought Polar. GEE I wonder what can be causing it. Atlas lost a few ACMI contracts and gained a few. Atlas has a few more airplanes and have dry leased some. Nothing in the mix could be causing the hemorrage except Polar. Polar is the ONLY thing in their current business model that could possibly be the big money loser.
Once they bought Polar they comitted to the business model and to the scheduled routes. I agree that Atlas management is no great brain trust but they would be a whole lot better off financially if the Polar section wasn't dragging them down. How can Polar pilots say they are supporting Atlas when Atlas is going broke at such a rapid clip? What kind of support is that?
BTW B74flyer, since I have invested in CGO in the past and since I invest in a number of airlines that operate out of my city, I listen in on the company and AIRINC freqs to get a hows-it-going feel for my investments. Polar has left the International Airport (not the AFB) a few times in the last 2 months headed west with "Zero-Cargo."
Chowdry's BBJ was a lease, and a mighty good one at that. In fact Boeing just about GAVE him the thing. The Albatross was bought with his own money.
I any case the 600 mil that Atlas had in the bank was after Chowdry passed away but before Atlas bought Polar. The proof that Polar is AAWH downfall is obvious to anyone who can read and understand an 8k or 10k report.
AAWH is going down the tubes and has been since they bought Polar. GEE I wonder what can be causing it. Atlas lost a few ACMI contracts and gained a few. Atlas has a few more airplanes and have dry leased some. Nothing in the mix could be causing the hemorrage except Polar. Polar is the ONLY thing in their current business model that could possibly be the big money loser.
Once they bought Polar they comitted to the business model and to the scheduled routes. I agree that Atlas management is no great brain trust but they would be a whole lot better off financially if the Polar section wasn't dragging them down. How can Polar pilots say they are supporting Atlas when Atlas is going broke at such a rapid clip? What kind of support is that?
BTW B74flyer, since I have invested in CGO in the past and since I invest in a number of airlines that operate out of my city, I listen in on the company and AIRINC freqs to get a hows-it-going feel for my investments. Polar has left the International Airport (not the AFB) a few times in the last 2 months headed west with "Zero-Cargo."
Last edited by Beaver Driver; 9th Jan 2004 at 09:27.
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How naive Beav. You make absolutely no sense at all. How easy it is to just make up any number that suits your quest in bashing Polar 
Why don't you reference your sources? Would you even know where to look?
Did you ever know what your stock was "really" worth? (and I don't mean info you could get from Mr Chowdry or different press releases that were paid for)
You remind me of my customers (banks, insurance groups and fund managers) in Switzerland who, throughout the 80s would by any stock that sounded Japanese with a PE of sometimes 300 but would not touch IBM with a PE of 35. And when I'd ask them why they'd simply answer "well everybody else is buying, we can't afford not to". Wow, and they went to school for that? Well when the Nikei finally dove to it's true level, nobody had the time to react and everybody sat dumbfounded on what had just happened. ("How could these companies not be worth what everybody said they were??") These same customers wouldn't get back in to the US market after the dump of October 87 until the early 90s even though it had regained most of its losses by mid 88. When I retired in 94 the Dow was probably around 3400. (BTW, the Nikei has never come close to half its high since the debacle)
Do you not know that most, if not all, of the articles and press releases that privately owned companies love to put out are paid for? Do you read that kind of stuff? And you would want me to believe that YOU "the beaver" knows everything about his company
That's why you still have some CGO right? All of it??
I'm not making fun, just being a bit sarcastic......
My god it's getting late!! Time flies when you're having fun
Anyhow, I don't think you realize what a relief it would be if AAWH dumped PO!
Cheerios Beav
Pat
Why don't you reference your sources? Would you even know where to look?
Did you ever know what your stock was "really" worth? (and I don't mean info you could get from Mr Chowdry or different press releases that were paid for)
You remind me of my customers (banks, insurance groups and fund managers) in Switzerland who, throughout the 80s would by any stock that sounded Japanese with a PE of sometimes 300 but would not touch IBM with a PE of 35. And when I'd ask them why they'd simply answer "well everybody else is buying, we can't afford not to". Wow, and they went to school for that? Well when the Nikei finally dove to it's true level, nobody had the time to react and everybody sat dumbfounded on what had just happened. ("How could these companies not be worth what everybody said they were??") These same customers wouldn't get back in to the US market after the dump of October 87 until the early 90s even though it had regained most of its losses by mid 88. When I retired in 94 the Dow was probably around 3400. (BTW, the Nikei has never come close to half its high since the debacle)
Do you not know that most, if not all, of the articles and press releases that privately owned companies love to put out are paid for? Do you read that kind of stuff? And you would want me to believe that YOU "the beaver" knows everything about his company
That's why you still have some CGO right? All of it?? I'm not making fun, just being a bit sarcastic......
My god it's getting late!! Time flies when you're having fun
Anyhow, I don't think you realize what a relief it would be if AAWH dumped PO!
Cheerios Beav
Pat
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Heil,
Well first off AAWH is not privately owned. Nor was CGO. So not much was "paid for". The statements and numbers I reference are all available to anyone who wants to read them on "edgar." It is ridiculously easy to discern the "scheduled" vs. "ACMI" numbers even though AAWH tries to hide them.
And then there are the company releases. I have a few friends at both carriers. The company confirms that Polar has never made money. I used to work for Southern Air. Polar never made money there. Yes I know they were a start-up. Funny how Atlas was a start up on their own certificate, at almost the same time, yet they made money.
Yes, I know what a relief it would be if AAWH would dump Polar. Not Naive at all, although still do have a small position with AAWH.pk. It's unfortunate that the Polar pilots feel as they do. You'd think they would have wondered about things when GECC dumped them for a mere 50 mil + releasing AAWH from ALL debt. CGO was a player. AAWH is not. Too bad.
Not really taking sides; just hate to see the Polar pilots ride this one into the dirt with their blinders firmly in place. Seems like most Atlas pilots I know are aware of the drill and most are actively seeking employment elsewhere. The Polar guys, however, seem comitted to riding this one into oblivion with their bugles blaring. Too bad. They should learn to read financial statements and the company rumor board.
Atlas could still be viable, but not with Polar attached. ACMI might be limited but there is still a small niche there. Polar, with their limited sales ability, as proven over their history, is dead. Just hope they don't take Atlas with them. hhhmmmmmm.....ok well maybe I am taking sides a little bit. Just my opinion of course.
Well first off AAWH is not privately owned. Nor was CGO. So not much was "paid for". The statements and numbers I reference are all available to anyone who wants to read them on "edgar." It is ridiculously easy to discern the "scheduled" vs. "ACMI" numbers even though AAWH tries to hide them.
And then there are the company releases. I have a few friends at both carriers. The company confirms that Polar has never made money. I used to work for Southern Air. Polar never made money there. Yes I know they were a start-up. Funny how Atlas was a start up on their own certificate, at almost the same time, yet they made money.
Yes, I know what a relief it would be if AAWH would dump Polar. Not Naive at all, although still do have a small position with AAWH.pk. It's unfortunate that the Polar pilots feel as they do. You'd think they would have wondered about things when GECC dumped them for a mere 50 mil + releasing AAWH from ALL debt. CGO was a player. AAWH is not. Too bad.
Not really taking sides; just hate to see the Polar pilots ride this one into the dirt with their blinders firmly in place. Seems like most Atlas pilots I know are aware of the drill and most are actively seeking employment elsewhere. The Polar guys, however, seem comitted to riding this one into oblivion with their bugles blaring. Too bad. They should learn to read financial statements and the company rumor board.
Atlas could still be viable, but not with Polar attached. ACMI might be limited but there is still a small niche there. Polar, with their limited sales ability, as proven over their history, is dead. Just hope they don't take Atlas with them. hhhmmmmmm.....ok well maybe I am taking sides a little bit. Just my opinion of course.
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BD sez:
Well lets see.
_________________
Yes, BD, let's see where you take us THIS time...Wheeee!
_________________
BD sez:
"Chowdry's BBJ was a lease, and a mighty good one at that. In fact Boeing just about GAVE him the thing. The Albatross was bought with his own money."
_________________
Again, what cites do you have? Perhaps Boeing did give him a good deal on the 'lease' in exchange for leasing so many whales and thus fattening the -400F orderbook.
Regardless, the BBJ was an utterly needless expense that I feel only made him appear to be an extravagant spendthrift in the eyes of his more practical ACMI customers, and I would wager more than a few of the saner Wall Street types as well.
Would you not have put 2 and 2 together as one of AAWH's ACMI customers and thought, 'Hey, if Chowdry can buy all these toys and make all this Wall Street money with our ACMI bux, maybe we could REALLY make some money at this game buying our OWN freighters, WITHOUT paying a middleman! And that's exactly what China Airlines, among others, DID. Of course, one must also remember that there was a rather severe downturn in the international economy then... a COMPLETELY SEPARATE ISSUE from the BARGAIN price AAWH paid for Polar- about the SAME as what his 2 flying toys were worth, as I will demonstrate shortly.
_________________
BD sez:
"In any case the 600 mil that Atlas had in the bank was after Chowdry passed away but before Atlas bought Polar. The proof that Polar is AAWH downfall is obvious to anyone who can read and understand an 8k or 10k report."
_________________
Put your money where your mouth is, BD, and POST said "8k and 10k" reports, and SHOW us, using those reports, that the purchase and operation of Polar by AAWH is the MAIN cause of its financial difficulties, as you continue to imply. Are you going to do it? Didn't think so, because it's NOT TRUE. And you know it.
It has been shown time and again, from the marketing and management geniuses at AAWHs' total inability to generate believeable financial statements for Wall Street that *anything* they put out for said street nowadays must be taken with a VERY large grain of salt.
The "$600 mil" you continue to prattle about was likely spent on the massive AAWH aircraft lease payments that are a hallmark of Atlas', and many other airlines', operations. It was pissed away plenty quick when the ACMI biz went to pot.
Your assertions that much of the '$600mil' was 'blown' on Polar's purchase are a crock, as Polar's purchase price was hardly in the neighborhood. Here's a little aritcle that might educate you as to the bargain price AAWH paid for Polar:
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m.../article.jhtml
To make it easier for you:
Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings Completes Acquisition of Polar Air Cargo.
Business Wire, Nov 2, 2001
"""Under the terms of the agreement announced in July, the stated purchase price of $84 million was effectively reduced by $30 million through certain financing commitments as well as the restructuring of associated aircraft leases. In addition, approximately half of the purchase price has now been financed through a two-year term loan. The transaction was completed following receipt of exemption authority for such purchase from the U.S. Department of Transportation."""
Well well. We see that not only was the price paid for Polar considerably LESS than even the original bargain of $84mil, but in reality, AAWH financed HALF the $54mil. final purchase price of Polar through a LOAN! So, AAWH got Polar's many valuable routes, and some serviceable-100 series freighters (which Connie and others that BOUGHT some will tell you still fly perfectly well) for around $27 million in CASH- about 5% of the $600mil 'Pile' you think was 'wasted' on Polar's acquisition and operation-and the rest a low-interest loan. So this, like your other contentions, is WRONG and not supported by FACTS.
________________
BD sez:
"AAWH is going down the tubes and has been since they bought Polar. GEE I wonder what can be causing it. Atlas lost a few ACMI contracts and gained a few. Atlas has a few more airplanes and have dry leased some. Nothing in the mix could be causing the hemorrage except Polar. Polar is the ONLY thing in their current business model that could possibly be the big money loser."
"Once they bought Polar they comitted to the business model and to the scheduled routes. I agree that Atlas management is no great brain trust but they would be a whole lot better off financially if the Polar section wasn't dragging them down. How can Polar pilots say they are supporting Atlas when Atlas is going broke at such a rapid clip? What kind of support is that?"
_______________
Well GEE, BD, it's fairly obvious to even the most disinterested observer that without Polar dry-leasing FOUR of Atlas' planes (a -200, 2-300s, and a 400f) I think they'd be going down the tubes a LOT faster than they are now! Want N numbers? I'll give 'em to ya. N505MC (200) N354MC, N355MC (300) and N496MC (400F). All DRY LEASED to Polar for what I'm sure is CONSIDERABLY above market rates.
And again, you have FAILED to show how it can be that Polar is 'dragging' Atlas down despite the FACT that AAWH/Atlas WET-LEASES multiple 200, 300 and 400 freighters, to POLAR in EVERY ONE of POLAR'S markets...again, the majority of which we ALREADY HAD before the marketing and management geniuses at AAWH took over.
However, no Polar pilot that I know, including myself, considers themselves to be 'supporting' Atlas- any more that those at Atlas with any brains think they're supporting Polar. Nor do we resent the Atlas crews for the multiple violations of our Scope clause that are being racked up by AAWH against Polar on a daily basis; I'm sure they'd give us the same courtesy should the tables be turned- this goat-rope was handed us by mgt., not them. But I'll be damned if our outfit is what's dragging AAWH into the gutter- and you sure haven't, and CAN'T, prove otherwise.
________________
BD sez:
"BTW B74flyer, since I have invested in CGO in the past and since I invest in a number of airlines that operate out of my city, I listen in on the company and AIRINC freqs to get a hows-it-going feel for my investments. Polar has left the International Airport (not the AFB) a few times in the last 2 months headed west with "Zero-Cargo." "
_________________
Time for yet ANOTHER reality check, BD! Yes, flights do leave JFK empty. They go empty when headed to various military bases to pick up MAC charters, or other destinations such as Seattle where maxed-out loads of horses are picked up to be flown to Japan for 'Kobe Steaks'. We do a LOT of these sorts of trips, as does Atlas. So, as I've said, your observations mean NOTHING as to the financial health of either Polar or AAWH. Nada. ZIP.
Do rejoin the thread when you have something useful to contribute!
TT.
Well lets see.
_________________
Yes, BD, let's see where you take us THIS time...Wheeee!
_________________
BD sez:
"Chowdry's BBJ was a lease, and a mighty good one at that. In fact Boeing just about GAVE him the thing. The Albatross was bought with his own money."
_________________
Again, what cites do you have? Perhaps Boeing did give him a good deal on the 'lease' in exchange for leasing so many whales and thus fattening the -400F orderbook.
Regardless, the BBJ was an utterly needless expense that I feel only made him appear to be an extravagant spendthrift in the eyes of his more practical ACMI customers, and I would wager more than a few of the saner Wall Street types as well.
Would you not have put 2 and 2 together as one of AAWH's ACMI customers and thought, 'Hey, if Chowdry can buy all these toys and make all this Wall Street money with our ACMI bux, maybe we could REALLY make some money at this game buying our OWN freighters, WITHOUT paying a middleman! And that's exactly what China Airlines, among others, DID. Of course, one must also remember that there was a rather severe downturn in the international economy then... a COMPLETELY SEPARATE ISSUE from the BARGAIN price AAWH paid for Polar- about the SAME as what his 2 flying toys were worth, as I will demonstrate shortly.
_________________
BD sez:
"In any case the 600 mil that Atlas had in the bank was after Chowdry passed away but before Atlas bought Polar. The proof that Polar is AAWH downfall is obvious to anyone who can read and understand an 8k or 10k report."
_________________
Put your money where your mouth is, BD, and POST said "8k and 10k" reports, and SHOW us, using those reports, that the purchase and operation of Polar by AAWH is the MAIN cause of its financial difficulties, as you continue to imply. Are you going to do it? Didn't think so, because it's NOT TRUE. And you know it.
It has been shown time and again, from the marketing and management geniuses at AAWHs' total inability to generate believeable financial statements for Wall Street that *anything* they put out for said street nowadays must be taken with a VERY large grain of salt.
The "$600 mil" you continue to prattle about was likely spent on the massive AAWH aircraft lease payments that are a hallmark of Atlas', and many other airlines', operations. It was pissed away plenty quick when the ACMI biz went to pot.
Your assertions that much of the '$600mil' was 'blown' on Polar's purchase are a crock, as Polar's purchase price was hardly in the neighborhood. Here's a little aritcle that might educate you as to the bargain price AAWH paid for Polar:
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m.../article.jhtml
To make it easier for you:
Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings Completes Acquisition of Polar Air Cargo.
Business Wire, Nov 2, 2001
"""Under the terms of the agreement announced in July, the stated purchase price of $84 million was effectively reduced by $30 million through certain financing commitments as well as the restructuring of associated aircraft leases. In addition, approximately half of the purchase price has now been financed through a two-year term loan. The transaction was completed following receipt of exemption authority for such purchase from the U.S. Department of Transportation."""
Well well. We see that not only was the price paid for Polar considerably LESS than even the original bargain of $84mil, but in reality, AAWH financed HALF the $54mil. final purchase price of Polar through a LOAN! So, AAWH got Polar's many valuable routes, and some serviceable-100 series freighters (which Connie and others that BOUGHT some will tell you still fly perfectly well) for around $27 million in CASH- about 5% of the $600mil 'Pile' you think was 'wasted' on Polar's acquisition and operation-and the rest a low-interest loan. So this, like your other contentions, is WRONG and not supported by FACTS.
________________
BD sez:
"AAWH is going down the tubes and has been since they bought Polar. GEE I wonder what can be causing it. Atlas lost a few ACMI contracts and gained a few. Atlas has a few more airplanes and have dry leased some. Nothing in the mix could be causing the hemorrage except Polar. Polar is the ONLY thing in their current business model that could possibly be the big money loser."
"Once they bought Polar they comitted to the business model and to the scheduled routes. I agree that Atlas management is no great brain trust but they would be a whole lot better off financially if the Polar section wasn't dragging them down. How can Polar pilots say they are supporting Atlas when Atlas is going broke at such a rapid clip? What kind of support is that?"
_______________
Well GEE, BD, it's fairly obvious to even the most disinterested observer that without Polar dry-leasing FOUR of Atlas' planes (a -200, 2-300s, and a 400f) I think they'd be going down the tubes a LOT faster than they are now! Want N numbers? I'll give 'em to ya. N505MC (200) N354MC, N355MC (300) and N496MC (400F). All DRY LEASED to Polar for what I'm sure is CONSIDERABLY above market rates.
And again, you have FAILED to show how it can be that Polar is 'dragging' Atlas down despite the FACT that AAWH/Atlas WET-LEASES multiple 200, 300 and 400 freighters, to POLAR in EVERY ONE of POLAR'S markets...again, the majority of which we ALREADY HAD before the marketing and management geniuses at AAWH took over.
However, no Polar pilot that I know, including myself, considers themselves to be 'supporting' Atlas- any more that those at Atlas with any brains think they're supporting Polar. Nor do we resent the Atlas crews for the multiple violations of our Scope clause that are being racked up by AAWH against Polar on a daily basis; I'm sure they'd give us the same courtesy should the tables be turned- this goat-rope was handed us by mgt., not them. But I'll be damned if our outfit is what's dragging AAWH into the gutter- and you sure haven't, and CAN'T, prove otherwise.
________________
BD sez:
"BTW B74flyer, since I have invested in CGO in the past and since I invest in a number of airlines that operate out of my city, I listen in on the company and AIRINC freqs to get a hows-it-going feel for my investments. Polar has left the International Airport (not the AFB) a few times in the last 2 months headed west with "Zero-Cargo." "
_________________
Time for yet ANOTHER reality check, BD! Yes, flights do leave JFK empty. They go empty when headed to various military bases to pick up MAC charters, or other destinations such as Seattle where maxed-out loads of horses are picked up to be flown to Japan for 'Kobe Steaks'. We do a LOT of these sorts of trips, as does Atlas. So, as I've said, your observations mean NOTHING as to the financial health of either Polar or AAWH. Nada. ZIP.
Do rejoin the thread when you have something useful to contribute!
TT.
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Beav you make me smile..........shows how much you know about the financial community and its well oiled system. You need to read between the lines, I used the term "privately owned companies" because that was an example that pertained to my ex employer.
Statements like <<Well first off AAWH is not privately owned. Nor was CGO. So not much was "paid for">> or again <<And then there are the company releases>> make me regret i never had you as a customer. First off how do you know AAWH never paid to have articles written "by them and about them" published in different magazines such as ATW (and many other more investor oriented papers). Secondly, and I really love that one, "company releases". Well Beav if you don't know how to read, that's exactly what they are, COMPANY releases, and they just reflect what the COMPANY wnats you to know.
I think I've lost enough time with you Beav. Believe what you want to believe. Definitely stay out of banking, you'll lose your shirt
Keep up the posts though, they're amusing. (Waiting to read your next post is a bit like waiting for the next Seinfeld)
Good luck to Atlas,
Pat
Statements like <<Well first off AAWH is not privately owned. Nor was CGO. So not much was "paid for">> or again <<And then there are the company releases>> make me regret i never had you as a customer. First off how do you know AAWH never paid to have articles written "by them and about them" published in different magazines such as ATW (and many other more investor oriented papers). Secondly, and I really love that one, "company releases". Well Beav if you don't know how to read, that's exactly what they are, COMPANY releases, and they just reflect what the COMPANY wnats you to know.
I think I've lost enough time with you Beav. Believe what you want to believe. Definitely stay out of banking, you'll lose your shirt
Keep up the posts though, they're amusing. (Waiting to read your next post is a bit like waiting for the next Seinfeld)
Good luck to Atlas,
Pat
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Koolaid
The Atlast Boy, are drinking all the koolaid poured for them. They need to "Watch what AAWH does, NOT what they say. They also like to brag, when hauling Polar freight. Pretty pitiful on their part.
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Figured this would come out.
BTW Turbynetrip you ASSUME I live in NY (I don't), and You assume Polar has actually paid Atlas for the aircraft they lease (they haven't) for the full montey go here. http://www.atlasreorg.com/pdfs/Objec...ders020504.pdf
Seems POLAR owes Atlas some 140 million. Hmmmmm....Atlas claims that they operated at an 8 million dollar loss last year. If Polar was not around with their accumulated debt, it would have been profitable.
BTW heil YOUR financial acumen is showing (NOT). If you knew how to read a financial statement you would have seen this. Notice who the members of the "committee" are? Do you suppose that they are bankers? Are they saying the same things I just said? Are you still smiling?
BD
BTW Turbynetrip you ASSUME I live in NY (I don't), and You assume Polar has actually paid Atlas for the aircraft they lease (they haven't) for the full montey go here. http://www.atlasreorg.com/pdfs/Objec...ders020504.pdf
Seems POLAR owes Atlas some 140 million. Hmmmmm....Atlas claims that they operated at an 8 million dollar loss last year. If Polar was not around with their accumulated debt, it would have been profitable.
BTW heil YOUR financial acumen is showing (NOT). If you knew how to read a financial statement you would have seen this. Notice who the members of the "committee" are? Do you suppose that they are bankers? Are they saying the same things I just said? Are you still smiling?
BD
Last edited by Beaver Driver; 6th Feb 2004 at 12:05.
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Get a life
BD-
"Are you still smiling?"
What is that? You really not that smart. I bet people really love hanging out with you. You seem to be really enjoying the bankruptcy. Probably gives you something to do in your boring life!! Why don't you go mow the grass or something and stop spreading the BS that you think your an authority on.
"Are you still smiling?"
What is that? You really not that smart. I bet people really love hanging out with you. You seem to be really enjoying the bankruptcy. Probably gives you something to do in your boring life!! Why don't you go mow the grass or something and stop spreading the BS that you think your an authority on.
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No not enjoying it at all. The smiling comment was for heilhaavir who said I made him smile. Polar is, and has been, a huge drain on Atlas resources. Atlas leases planes to Polar that they don't pay for. Atlas buys the gas for them. etc. etc.
The Atlas pilots profit sharing was used to buy this money loser.
Now, the Polar pilots insist they are keeping Atlas afloat....read the whole thread (this one and others) before you chastize me.
BK is never fun. It sucks when you are part of it and it sucks more when you worked hard for your company and it goes down the tubes. Managment is no brain trust here. I agree with that. What I don't agree with is the Polar guys on this board and in the bars telling me that they are keeping Atlas afloat. This sure doesn't look like afloat to me. Click on the link in my previous post and actually read the document.
BD
The Atlas pilots profit sharing was used to buy this money loser.
Now, the Polar pilots insist they are keeping Atlas afloat....read the whole thread (this one and others) before you chastize me.
BK is never fun. It sucks when you are part of it and it sucks more when you worked hard for your company and it goes down the tubes. Managment is no brain trust here. I agree with that. What I don't agree with is the Polar guys on this board and in the bars telling me that they are keeping Atlas afloat. This sure doesn't look like afloat to me. Click on the link in my previous post and actually read the document.
BD
Last edited by Beaver Driver; 7th Feb 2004 at 11:12.
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Beav,
If you read more closely on ALL the pleadings of the BK you will find that while Polar has not paid Atlas for the lease payments, Atlas has not paid any of their lease payments either. Atlas has also not paid Polar for ANY of the wet lease flying that Atlas is doing for Polar. It is one big shell game out there. Strickly speaking Atlas and Polar are each others largest crediter. There is not enough ACMI flying out there to keep all of Atlas's Acft occupied. So if Polar was not there the 5 Acft that are flying Polar freight would be parked. Causing even more layoffs.
Also In one of the pleading it makes the statement that Polar's debt of 140 million is nothing more then scheduled lease payments for all the acft. Atlas purchased Polar dept free except for lease payments. The entire AAWH corp is busy shuffling mony back and forth. Did you see that the one company was transfered 20 million of Polar's cash and is just holding on to it and is not paying anyone?
Some of Polar's routes do not have very good revenue, but some of Atlas's ACMI contracts are crap also. (Money losers)
Face it we are all in this together. We have to hope that the Boys and Girls in the big white monstosity of Purchase ACTUALLY know what they are doing.
So SMILE
If you read more closely on ALL the pleadings of the BK you will find that while Polar has not paid Atlas for the lease payments, Atlas has not paid any of their lease payments either. Atlas has also not paid Polar for ANY of the wet lease flying that Atlas is doing for Polar. It is one big shell game out there. Strickly speaking Atlas and Polar are each others largest crediter. There is not enough ACMI flying out there to keep all of Atlas's Acft occupied. So if Polar was not there the 5 Acft that are flying Polar freight would be parked. Causing even more layoffs.
Also In one of the pleading it makes the statement that Polar's debt of 140 million is nothing more then scheduled lease payments for all the acft. Atlas purchased Polar dept free except for lease payments. The entire AAWH corp is busy shuffling mony back and forth. Did you see that the one company was transfered 20 million of Polar's cash and is just holding on to it and is not paying anyone?
Some of Polar's routes do not have very good revenue, but some of Atlas's ACMI contracts are crap also. (Money losers)
Face it we are all in this together. We have to hope that the Boys and Girls in the big white monstosity of Purchase ACTUALLY know what they are doing.
So SMILE
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B7
First, ACMI is NEVER a money loser for Atlas as the customer pays for the gas, pays for the block hour whether they use it or not, and ususally has a monthly guarantee that they have to pay for. The customer also pays for crew transportation and lodging as well as all ground handling and overflight expenses. This is the definition of ACMI. Atlas will not sign a contract, whether long or short term, that is not profitable. It is WAY different and a lot less risky than scheduled freight.
Atlas does not have five aircraft dedicated to Polar flying. I have seen the Atlas monthly schedules and there is not that many of them with PO call signs listed, and certainly not five dedicated to Polar flying. Additionally, what Polar flights they do fly are not being paid for by Polar. AAWH pays for Polar's ground services with maintenance and ground handling contractors without re-imbursement.
Are you saying that Atlas should be PAYING to fly Polar cargo? I think you mean that Atlas has not paid Polar for the flying that Polar has done for Atlas. I have to tell you that I think the amount of flying in that direction has been miniscule as Polar's aircraft are mostly fully utilized.
However, just because they are fully utilized does not mean profitable. Polar flys MANY un-profitable routes. And if AAWH is going to survive they will have to dump them (or get a sales department that can actually sell the lift). Witness the recent demise of MNL and PEN (as well as the title of this thread). AAWH revised business plan is driven by the need to ensure that aircraft can meet a minimum revenue threshhold. Many of the routes that Polar has been flying do not meet the minimum threshold to keep in the plan. AAWH will be shrinking the Polar fleet to 11 in 2004 and possibly more as they identify unprofitable routes. With the reduced frequencies in Asia it is obviously necessary to reduce the number of markets Polar serves.
The boys and girls in the head shed don't know what they are doing. The have decided it is more fun to do battle with their employees than make money. They seem to be following the teachings of Sun Tzu and they have succeeded. They have both of their "enemies" at each others throats. This will ultimately cause the demise of both carriers.
As Gordon Bethune points out in his book From Worst to First, the profound turnaround in employee attitude and operations at Continental Airlines took all of one year. Continental rewarded employees for better on-time performance, listened to their ideas about how to improve operations, and, most important, stopped warring with workers and signaled that they were a valued part of the company.
One thought to bear in mind....Have you EVER seen ANY advertising for Polar Air Cargo. They don't know how to sell their lift. Many of their routes are un-profitable or marginally profitable. They either need to cr@p or get off the cr@pper.
First, ACMI is NEVER a money loser for Atlas as the customer pays for the gas, pays for the block hour whether they use it or not, and ususally has a monthly guarantee that they have to pay for. The customer also pays for crew transportation and lodging as well as all ground handling and overflight expenses. This is the definition of ACMI. Atlas will not sign a contract, whether long or short term, that is not profitable. It is WAY different and a lot less risky than scheduled freight.
Atlas does not have five aircraft dedicated to Polar flying. I have seen the Atlas monthly schedules and there is not that many of them with PO call signs listed, and certainly not five dedicated to Polar flying. Additionally, what Polar flights they do fly are not being paid for by Polar. AAWH pays for Polar's ground services with maintenance and ground handling contractors without re-imbursement.
Are you saying that Atlas should be PAYING to fly Polar cargo? I think you mean that Atlas has not paid Polar for the flying that Polar has done for Atlas. I have to tell you that I think the amount of flying in that direction has been miniscule as Polar's aircraft are mostly fully utilized.
However, just because they are fully utilized does not mean profitable. Polar flys MANY un-profitable routes. And if AAWH is going to survive they will have to dump them (or get a sales department that can actually sell the lift). Witness the recent demise of MNL and PEN (as well as the title of this thread). AAWH revised business plan is driven by the need to ensure that aircraft can meet a minimum revenue threshhold. Many of the routes that Polar has been flying do not meet the minimum threshold to keep in the plan. AAWH will be shrinking the Polar fleet to 11 in 2004 and possibly more as they identify unprofitable routes. With the reduced frequencies in Asia it is obviously necessary to reduce the number of markets Polar serves.
The boys and girls in the head shed don't know what they are doing. The have decided it is more fun to do battle with their employees than make money. They seem to be following the teachings of Sun Tzu and they have succeeded. They have both of their "enemies" at each others throats. This will ultimately cause the demise of both carriers.
As Gordon Bethune points out in his book From Worst to First, the profound turnaround in employee attitude and operations at Continental Airlines took all of one year. Continental rewarded employees for better on-time performance, listened to their ideas about how to improve operations, and, most important, stopped warring with workers and signaled that they were a valued part of the company.
One thought to bear in mind....Have you EVER seen ANY advertising for Polar Air Cargo. They don't know how to sell their lift. Many of their routes are un-profitable or marginally profitable. They either need to cr@p or get off the cr@pper.
Last edited by Beaver Driver; 8th Feb 2004 at 03:53.
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Uh Beav,
Do you have any idea how the freight forwarding business works? Polar Acft are filled by freight forwarders like Pilot , Emery, and Eagle. Polar has Never advertised because they are not a retail cargo airline. And you need to talk to some of your management guys to get the staight poop on some of the ACMI contaracts that Shulyer signed. Atlas is losing money on every flight because the rate is so low. Just because you have an ACMI contract signed does not mean the amount you get paid each leg is enough to cover all the overhead for running a 747 and paying all the salarys at the puzzle palace.
Do you have any idea how the freight forwarding business works? Polar Acft are filled by freight forwarders like Pilot , Emery, and Eagle. Polar has Never advertised because they are not a retail cargo airline. And you need to talk to some of your management guys to get the staight poop on some of the ACMI contaracts that Shulyer signed. Atlas is losing money on every flight because the rate is so low. Just because you have an ACMI contract signed does not mean the amount you get paid each leg is enough to cover all the overhead for running a 747 and paying all the salarys at the puzzle palace.
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Wouldn't you still have to sell your product even if it was to the freight forwarders. Or do you figure "If you buy it (airplane) they will come" ? Polar's advertising and their sales force are terrible. Why? Because managment are more concerned with fighting their employees than they are with doing business.
I don't have any management guys to talk to. Sorry.
But listen to yourself. ACMI has virtually no variable costs associated with it. All of those are paid by the customer. Why would Atlas sign a contract that is going to lose money. All of the costs that you talk about are fixed costs that Atlas would have to pay if they flew a plane or not...the leases, bonuses etc. I agree that ACMI, as a business model, is in it's declining phase and that the number of contracts that Atlas has is shrinking. But those contracts are still making money. Possibly not enough to cover the fixed costs that Atlas has incurred since buying Polar, but hour for hour, they are making money. On many routes, I don't think Polar even covers expenses. In fact I know they don't. It's right there in the 8K filings if you know how to read them.
BD
I don't have any management guys to talk to. Sorry.
But listen to yourself. ACMI has virtually no variable costs associated with it. All of those are paid by the customer. Why would Atlas sign a contract that is going to lose money. All of the costs that you talk about are fixed costs that Atlas would have to pay if they flew a plane or not...the leases, bonuses etc. I agree that ACMI, as a business model, is in it's declining phase and that the number of contracts that Atlas has is shrinking. But those contracts are still making money. Possibly not enough to cover the fixed costs that Atlas has incurred since buying Polar, but hour for hour, they are making money. On many routes, I don't think Polar even covers expenses. In fact I know they don't. It's right there in the 8K filings if you know how to read them.
BD
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another country heard from.........
I totally agree with BD. Atlas needs to dump Polar NOW!!!!
The sooner Polar's certificate is liberated from that concentration camp in upstate New York the sooner POLAR pilots can fly POLAR freight on POLAR
sorry 'bout that - hit the wrong key
anyway, POLAR pilots can fly POLAR freight on POLAR route with POLAR aircraft and put the money in POLAR's account instead of pissing it down a black hole that is already 2 BILLION dollars deep. So if you have any influence with Frank Lorenzo's imps in Purchase please implore them to sell Polar NOW!!!!!
I totally agree with BD. Atlas needs to dump Polar NOW!!!!
The sooner Polar's certificate is liberated from that concentration camp in upstate New York the sooner POLAR pilots can fly POLAR freight on POLAR
sorry 'bout that - hit the wrong key
anyway, POLAR pilots can fly POLAR freight on POLAR route with POLAR aircraft and put the money in POLAR's account instead of pissing it down a black hole that is already 2 BILLION dollars deep. So if you have any influence with Frank Lorenzo's imps in Purchase please implore them to sell Polar NOW!!!!!
