HKAOA -losing the plot?
 

If the company "victimised" an individual or group of individuals and fired them for carrying out the reasonable actions of the HKAOA, the one and only response is strike. 6 months pay as compensation from your brother and sisters in the AOA .. FFS.... I am embarrassed....we are inviting trouble!!

Come on Ladies and Gents, this is Unionism 101. Taken to the extreme, if the company fired the GC, our only course of action has to be to not show up to work the next day, then the next and so on until they are reinstated. What are we suggesting, we pay the GC six months salary, pat them on the back, a round of beers, some rousing speeches wishing them well in their future careers and then ask for new volunteers to form a new GC? Dont be surprised if nobody volunteers.

This is a basic fundamental of being a union.... Protect your volunteers, because if you don't you won't have a Union for much longer.

Wrong. The pay compensation is to give the rank and file the balls to actually go ahead with the strike without fear of personal inimidation/sacking for sprurious reasons by our caring employer. Think 49ers.

I think this is a step in the right direction, and about time and all.

If you read the basic law article 27 states
HK residents shall have freedom of speech , of the press and of publication. Freedom of association , of assembly of procession and of demonstration and of the right and freedom to form and join trade unions and to strike

Liam,

Think you missed the point. Not just for GC members but for all and covering trumped up dismissals for no declared reason.

Employee has the freedom to strike and employer the freedom to fire.

Not worth much I'm afraid.

I hope we all still appreciate that the Swine hierarchy is still the same vindictive narcissistic inbred our way our the highway establishment it was back in ‘01 during the firings of the ‘49ers, nothing much has changed.
It’s still got the same kronies trying to pull the same ole BS on us.
They can fire whom they like but they will only be making matters worse and worse , and if they have any inkling how low moral is right now and how many of the troops will just go anyway ....

Huge credit to the union and the proposal and the proposers 👍

The way I see it, CX has two choices. They can turn a once proud airline into a boutique carrier with local only pilots while giving away massive market share to HKA; OR they can treat their pilots with respect and retain employees that allow CX to compete for the market in HK.

Knowing CX as I do from my experience here, they will try to find a middle ground. They won’t really treat employees well at all, but they won’t default to being a boutique carrier either. They will continue to sacrifice market share to other carriers all while pretending to compete and treat their employees well. The Big Lie will continue. They will pretend to pay us, and we will pretend to work. Morale will continue to crater. CX will die a slow death, as it is already. Air China and others will pick at the carcus years from now, and those whom have left already will have looked all the wiser.

Busyb,

I haven't missed the point. I understand this applies to all members. I think you missed my comment about taking it to the extreme and I used the most extreme example I could think of....the company sacking the GC.

Those quoting the law are deluding themselves, nobody will be fired for Union Activities. They will be given three months pay in lieu of notice for "no particular reason", or "loss of confidence". That's why the HKAOA's proposal may look good, but is actually nonsense;

1. It will never trigger, because nobody will be fired for Union Activities; they will be fired for other "grey" stuff.
2. The HKAOA doesn't have the money to fund anything other than a handful of sackings. It's a hollow commitment.
3. It signals to the Company and your fellow members that we won't even go on strike if they fired our GC. Why then should they be scared of cutting Housing or not paying a fair HKPA Allowance.

Frankly, I am embarrassed by anyone promoting this as a step in the right direction. ....Union 101...

Liam, slow down. It’s chess, not wack-a-mole.

Raven and Worriedpilot,

Have a read of my posts and take some time to think very carefully about what I am saying and what I am not saying. Take the time to dial down the hysteria and dial up some fortitude, decency and out right common-sense.

What I am not saying is we move to strike action as an escalation of CC/TB. That's a separate discussion. What I am saying is the termination of a member (or members) by management, as part of what the GC believes to be an industrial escalation by management, must be met by one action only;- strike.

I am not saying this as someone desperate to strap on a bomb-vest and pull the handle, but someone who believes we all have a line, and the termination of our fellow members as part of management's industrial plan must sit on the "strike" side of that line. I don't care where your personal line sits, but if "industrial" terminations doesn't sit within the "strike" zone, then;

1. You lack decency. Paying someone 6 months salary may easy your conscience but it doesn't ease mine.
2. You lack common sense. Unless the company knows very, very bad things will happen if they move to terminations, you are inviting them to take that action. We must have a credible deterent. This motion in no way deters management, in fact it probably does the opposite. It clearly signals to them that if they fire 49 of our colleagues again, our response will be to show up to work the next morning and bankrupt the HKAOA in the afternoon;- Result!!! Aren't we just inviting it, where's the deterrent?
3. You lack a spine.

I am embarrassed that the GC is even proposing this and anyone believing this is a step in the right direction needs to step outside and have a word with themselves.

Liam, I agree with you, but as someone else pointed out, we have an association with lots of members, but with very few union men. That's the sad truth!

The AoA are aware of this, and to mention the word strike in a motion this early is going to have all the scaredy cats running to the nearest trash bin. Give it time, let the momentum build. Ultimately I'm sure the motion will revised to what you're rightfully suggesting.

Anyone understand Motion 3?
 

For those who think I am crazed uni-bomber, then perhaps you will freak out when you read Motion 3.

Now I have read Motion 3 repeatedly and I can only assume it's written by someone who has English as a second language and antipodean as their first. I think it is authorising the Chairman to lead us into any Industrial Action he sees fit. He doesn't require a GC vote and he doesn't require a membership. It's a completely blank cheque.

Dangerous stuff......

Anyone read it differently?

Liam,
He is saying that the members of the HKAOA lack a spine. That’s how I read it.
He is right about the spine part. That’s why we find ourselves here today. Talking about cuts when every first rate airline in our home countries are getting big raises.

Perhaps it is finally the HKAOA-writing the plot?
About time we saw some leadership and proactive activity.

A few comment from the side line.

In the midst of the biggest shortage of pilots ever, Your company declare that they are lowering You housing allowance and this in one of the most expensive real estate markets in the world.
The next day You all show up for work and Your checkers and trainers keep doing what they are doing.
And now You are surprised that they are still coming at You?

Are you familiar with the Charge of the Light Brigade....

Fortunately MC, we don’t have the « 600 » for the charge and ensuing massacre.

mc

Are you familiar with the 20th Maine at Little Round Top ?

I think in time, it will be branded Air China HK and the changes that occur with this will be as one expects.

China hates HK, its traditions, and its people. Why wouldn't the airline be forced to be subservient to the Mainland? The only trick will be to figure out to what degree Hainan/HKA/HKE will be permitted to fill the void, ie, compete with an Air China subsidiary.

I agree with the Air China takeover scenario. President Xi recently referred to the colonial shame of Hong Kong’s history. China will step in soon. The Kingboard/Qatar move is part of the strategy in a side deal made between Beijing and Doha. Unlike a thread on the AOA forum I don’t think John Swires of London are trying to talk down the share price. The opposite. When the sign or be fired contract rolls out soon the stock market will love it. Then Swires will cash out a large chunk.

https://hk.news.appledaily.com/local...71124/20224068

WE MADE IT ONTO HK APPLE NEWS!

Any way to view that in English?

google translate, instead of normal text paste the http address and hit translate

HeHe, Poor CN TJ makes it onto the front page.

But I get this...

"Dissatisfaction with Cathay Chutzpai pilots proposed industrial action"...

You are wasting your time with Google Translate.

Just read the email from AOA, what a farce to give away so much. They can keep the red lanyard if they put that through will save my 800+ hkd per month on subscription fees!

Really, The AOA email was well written and reasonable unlike the shrill response from you know who, quoting unsubstantiated figures who can only repeat “ the sky is falling down, the sky is falling down.”

Bit too light on in the details with that email, change to the way 900 hours a year is counted. What does that mean? Time in the bunk not counted? Still a long way to go it seems with all the red in the table

FFS
 

I am sorry good readers of pprune.... I chose the title of this thread incorrectly, it seems the HKAOA lost the plot some time ago. Apparently the GC thought the following was a good deal.

- I get to work 1/52 or 2% more and AFTLS 900 hour protection is increased and I sacrifice 20% of my earnings.
- Assuming a 5 year period, I will be earning about 20% less in year 5. (10% less in increments, 3% less in PFund and 7% less in HDP/EFP)
- I would have to move out of my house.
- I would gain some satisfaction that my colleagues on HKPA would get an increase, however their overall earnings would drop because they too would be down 20% in pay.
- The best industrial leverage we had for a generation would evaporate for absolutely no return.

In return, I would get a vague promise from a bunch of rogues with a rich history of reneging on deals (written or not) that they might;

- Return my investment.
- embrace Fleet Transfer by Seniority.
- Offer part-time work (if I could afford it!).

A couple of notes for the GC.

1. EBIT is Earning Before Interest and Tax. I think you mean EBITDA. But which ever one you use, payments to Swire and Air China are all included in EBIT and EBITDA. Basically, it's the same old manipulated numbers.
2. If you think I have my head in the sand, you are incorrect, I am really in the prone firing position ready to defend my home, 20% of my earning and my 6 weeks leave, that I firmly believe I should not be sacrificing because someone recklessly gambled on the fuel markets.

Now, those on the GC that got elected to negotiate concessions on my behalf please step forward and identify yourselves. I only voted for people who stood to protect and enhance my COS (which was all of you!).

What you don’t understand is that the company rejected these cuts! And are willing to force a worse contract down our throats....

ahh Natca .... You must be one one of the GC members I voted for.

We are a union, we are allowed to fight back. Some random thoughts.

- The only way the Company could force this through is to terminate all our contracts and offer us new ones in 3 months time.
- Did you see the recent reaction in the SCMP to Motion 1. How do you think the travelling public will react to the news that in 3 months Cathay may have no pilots because they just terminated all our contracts?
- Yep, I know you will wet your gusset and waddle upstairs surrounded by a leaking pool of p!ss and sign whatever's put in front of you, however some of us might just go "poker face" for 3 months.
- Within the group who go "poker face", there might be a small bunch slightly more endowned in the trouser department, who would fight for 20% of their earnings and their homes.
- I have no evidence to support this, but in the "post German-Wings" world, do think the aircraft insurers are going to be happy with a bunch of "sacked" pilots flying around the skies for 3 months on their liability? I know in the IT world, you cannot touch a company computer once your contract is terminated, do you think it's "best practice" that we get to handle $250m aircraft for 3 months?

But then again, mustn't upset the company, that gets us nowhere...... collaboration has been so successful.

As I have been saying. The ONLY way this company will listen is if they themselves suffer. So, resolve to demonstrate over this holiday season, and right through and over CNY, that you and your efforts have value. This company's operation should should reflect our disgust at what the company is trying to do. If you are not willing to take individual action, then welcome to your worthless career. For those of you who have any other options of employment, now is the time to exercise it. Good luck to all.

FWIW there would be and will be no better time for the HKAOA to strike. Ever.

Think of the BS rammed down the pike in a market favoring pilots. And it has just accelerated. And will continue to do so.

IF you buy into any future scenario, with increasing influence from Beijing (whether through influence of private carriers or government regulations) do you REALLY think they will allow ‘national assets’ to strike ? Methinks if anything were to happen it would be a one sided version of the US RLA. In future operations Beijing will have no problem enforcing a back to work order within the SARs.

So it is now or never.

I guess it will be up to the will of the membership and how they envision their future.

Shep. You are correct. However, there is no future. No matter the outcome, the bully boy tactics and corporate lying by the likes of DP are all that there is in store for this company for the rest of it's pathetic existence. The only real action available is to leave HK and establish a career in a part of the world where there are proper laws and processes. I will however be taking personal action over the next few months to do my part in showing this company that they have taken me for granted once too often. And the rest of us....? (and I do support a strike if called btw)

The AoA was gonna try and sell us that garbage? Unbelievable!

A motion of "non confidence" could force a new election for a new president and GC if the majority of the HKAOA members disagree with the current direction the HKAOA is going. Just saying .......

There is already talk of a new pilots union to be created that actually represents it's members. The shocking revelations about how much the AOA was prepared to negotiate away on behalf of the membership will only increase the calls for a new union.

No comment

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-c...-idUSKBN1DN29Q

baggagecart

you forgot to add that there is no more coal industry in UK. the action of the government destroyed 250,000 jobs in 10 years.
Back to HKG. It is time for a new pilots union. One that embraces all the HKG based airlines and not just CX.
I have it on good authority that "The Hong Kong Pilots Union 2018" is almost up and running.
The recent HKAOA concessions are not supported by the members and the GC should resign today. CX will then be forced to talk with the newly elected body.
So "HKPU 2018" forever.