To say the HKAOA represents 80% of the CX pilot body is misleading.
I doubt if it actually represents 50% and certainly amongst commanders far less than this.

HKPU 2018 the way forward.

When it took a separate union to eventually restore honour, dignity, and resolution to those that were terminated unfairly in 01 by something that was initially started by the HKAOA, then says it all about what to expect from this union when it comes to protecting your interests.

There’s irony for you. Only a couple of years ago 48% of the pilot membership (call it 1200 members) voted to take the pay raise on offer. 1 of the 1200 chose to go on the AOA forum after the vote to discuss further. That member was abused and vilified by the hardliners and eventually quit the union. The lone voice of 1200 paying members. Not a single person who voted for the pay raise has dared to have their say on the AOA forum since.

So the 200 or so hardliners now want to break away because they think the AOA doesn’t represent them. I’m guessing plenty of the silent majority who voted against the pay raise would now happily take it.

The sooner a vote comes the better.

Excellent post. I agree 100%.

100% correct and accurate.

Good post GFC2

Morningcoffee, if you want to see what life post TA16 wouid look like. Gaze across at KA. They agreed a 0% payrise and have their Housing locked up in their COS. The DPA has been summons to talks. Do you think Management wants to talk about payrises?:\

If you want to see what life post 'victory' look like. Gaze across at KA.

The DPA, fought and got that pay rise some years ago and the boys lost two great airlines, Dragonair Cargo and Dragonair.

So you’re saying that by taking a pay raise we would be paid less. Best you turn down 13th month, it’s a trick.
And you’re all more than happy to vilify the members who didn’t vote how you wanted them to. And that over rides the fact that if those 1200 ditch the AOA any strength you have goes out the window.
Which leads on to the reality of point 3, Clause 7. The company already has managed to tie up the SHP claim in the courts until eternity, it has also managed to reduce the payout to the 49ers to only 5 or 10% of what the court said was originally owed. And you naively think that having no clause 7 is going to save us from what? You strike, you lose your job and your P fund and you get blacklisted by every half decent airline out there.
But you sit there thinking lucky there’s no Clause 7 or things could be really bad? In reality, in the real world, on planet Earth, in Hong Kong, your argument makes no sense.
If it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling irrespective of what history is telling you, I completely understand.

Dragon69,
Clearly you have no idea what happened back in 01 and the post dispute formation of the HKPU. Educate yourself before making ignorant remarks like that.

Morningcoffee. I'll give you full marks for perseverance. However, that doesn't change the fact you are a management plant, masquerading as a pilot. On that note, your attempts to discourage and dissuade our efforts to fight back are doomed to fail. Not because you don't have the ability to mess with us, but because ultimately, you can't have power over people who aren't even employed here anymore. THAT is the small fact that you and your management cretin comrades can't control: most of us are leaving (5 more this week confirmed with one of our main competitors, now awaiting course dates). You can rant and rave all you wish. Won't change the outcome. You will soon not have enough pilots to operate the fleet with. They are leaving. You have managed to convince nearly all of us that there is no future here worth betting the farm on. You have lied, bullied and intimidated us one step too far. Nothing you or your cabal say or do now will change the fact that you are liars. And sensible people don't tie their and their families careers and futures to the promises of liars. You, all of you, are immoral liars. And btw, when the SCMP posts their main editorial cartoon about CX needing pilots...well, the writing is on the wall. LMAO ! :ok:

And one more thing: many of my ex-colleagues in C and T are just waiting to submit their resignations the first confirmed attack on our housing, pension or leave is received. You go down that route at your peril. None of us are willing to be seen to be part of a management attempt to not only ruin the careers of those here, but they are not willing to play the patsy when their own lifestyle and remuneration is attacked. You really must hold us in contempt to think we would play your game after that has happened. Drown in your own delusion. You and the rest of your pathetic Swire mafia. Oh, and the comment about being 'blacklisted'...you make me laugh. Every airline in the world is desperate for experienced crew. The only thing they will do is roll out the red carpet for everyone of us who applies. The only warm fuzzy will be the satisfaction in seeing you and your mob being swept into the dustbin of management history as the incompetent failures that you are. That outcome is not in doubt.

Traf why don't they just leave C+T now? Genuinely curious, the attacks have already started

... because there are so many C scalers still to train. Train enough of them and then it won’t matter if the C&Ters resign. They’ll be doing those jobs too. Duh, talk about an own goal. Idiots!

I think management are :mad: scared of what MAY happen if they announce real and unjustified cuts. The C and T members actually have latent power in just the threat of them resigning. Which they will if the cuts are announced. At the moment I think they are better off keeping their powder dry. The department will collapse if the company moves against us. I’ve spoken to over two dozen personally. Every one has committed to resigning immediatlely. Don’t attack them now and play into the company’s hands. They are on the side of integrity. They will resign. None of them are willing to play if their own housing and pay are affected. Not worth it at the best of times. It certainly won’t be worth it then. C and T are finished if the company moves against us.

Cafe de Coral get it. People expenses up 7% year on year

The decline in profitability of our Hong Kong operations for the period was due in large part to the
investment we made in people for our quick service restaurant (QSR) business, the Group’s core
business. This was necessary for attracting and retaining talent in a highly competitive labour market
as well as for our continuing business development in the sector. Our investment in people resulted in
significant improvements in our staff retention rate, although it also led to increases in manpower
expenses during the review period that were higher than the pace of our revenue growth.

It’s things like “...If THEIR OWN housing and pay are affected.” which cause alarm bells. What would they decide to do if the company comes up with a package where the trainers get significantly more housing than everyone else?

Exactly! “I got mine. I’m alright Jack.” Why wouldn’t CX do this? They’d be stupid not to, and most of our check and trainers will fall for it. Their contribution to the Company is being appropriately compensated. They are no different than the sim instructors coming back to do PCs. Just gotta get enough cadets into the LHS and then into training, then it’s all over. Writing is on the wall, and we are just too dumb to read it. Beaten by a bunch of bean counters with no imagination or originality... Aren’t CX pilots awesome? I’m so proud.

Sorry boys, but I need to point out the abject stupidity of your comments. Firstly, the company has not offered any such deal. Secondly, the C and T pilots are all pilots and colleagues first. Knowing many of them as long time friends, I can safely assure you that they will not be bought off in a cynical and manipulative manner. In fact, many of them told PC a few weeks ago at a 'drinks' evening that they would be offended at any such attempt by the company. Most of the C and T members that I have spoken with are adamant that they will resign immediately if the company cuts housing or pension/leave etc. Most of them (like myself) have had a gut full of CX's appalling mismanagement. They are also aware that the company will be brought to it's knees upon a mass resignation. I don't know a single one of them who is willing to undermine their own living conditions just to endure as a C and T member. Not one. This management is blind and deaf to the outright contempt they are held in by all levels within the CX pilot community. Don't turn against your brothers and sisters. We are all on the same side, and you will need the good will of the C and T members soon enough. Together we can bring this appalling management down. Good riddance to AT and DP...and that is just for a start.

I sure hope you’re correct Trafalgar. History would not indicate that, but I’m not a defeatist. I would like nothing more than to look at our C&Ters with admiration for having saved the pilot group. I’m willing to do my part, but unless the HKAOA is going to get serious and down tools, then it is left to the C&Ters. Sorry boys, I’d prefer to simply stop showing up to work, collectively, and let the chips fall where they may.

I hear you CX. I hope i'm right as well. All indications from conversations i've had the past few months indicate that there is a collective resolve to meet this management head on. The C and T members are not willing to be used as a manipulative tool against their 3000+ colleagues. I resigned, several others have as well, and most will do so soon. There is no dignity in life if you can't make a small sacrifice for your profession, friends and colleagues. I won't be used by this appalling management, and I don't believe any of my former C and T colleagues will either. If i'm wrong, then they can go to their own personal hell. I think they are made of better stuff than that, and I believe they will do the right thing. If not, then they will deserve the contempt and animosity that will fill their every remaining day in CX. Have hope. I believe we will see off this appalling and contemptible management, with the help of all the pilots. Make sure every one of you take action this holiday season. It's up to each and very one of us to play a part in fighting this attack on the value of our careers and profession.

So if it’s a Monday we blame the A scalers, right at the beginning with their huge packages they let the rot start

If it’s a Tuesday we blame the B scalers, they put up a woeful fight and here we are now

If it’s a Wednesday we blame the C scalers, sure the industry has gone to crap and the CX option is still a good one but that’s irrelevant

If it’s a Thursday we blame the C&Ters, they could maybe bring the company to its knees, they’d probably get fired for it but the rest of us wouldn’t and that’s a sacrifice the rest of us are willing to take

If it’s a Friday we blame everyone who caved in in 1999, and since most of the GC weren’t around in 1999 we have to repeat the mistakes made then. Can anyone say lemmings, cliff

Whats left?

MC, you are becoming tedious and predictable. So, your latest attempt to sow dissension is to try and turn pilot against pilot. Pathetic. The vast majority of us are united against the type of cretin you represent. And btw, as a former C and T, we always have the legal right to return to the line. Already confirmed by the labour court. C and T's resign every day (as I did recently), so don't try and throw the old 'you'll be fired' line. It fascinates me how you can't see just how close to the old Soviet and Nazi mindset your thinking represents. A legacy to be proud of. Don't try and intimidate any of us. The days of that having any effect are gone. Either we don't care, or we are already close to leaving. Either case, you and your kind are toothless and venal. Look at yourself in the mirror and try and recognise the creature you have become. At least the pilots can look at themselves in that same mirror and see someone who represents something noble, someone who contributes something positive to society. You, you aren't worth the air you breathe.

MorningCoffee. You sit in your office (cubicle) and try and wind up 3000+ educated, savvy and cynical pilots. Pilots who are sick to the teeth of the very thing you represent. Sick of it because we instinctively understand just how corrosive and toxic you and your kind are. Keep coming on here and making your sad attempts to divide us. Guess what, you are spitting into the wind. I, and most of my colleagues have already decided to leave for better employers. We don't care anymore. As a matter of fact, we take great pleasure in hurting you and your goals. You will be busy enough soon trying to keep the Government and public at bay when you have to explain why CX's operation is in pieces, with parked aircraft and no pilots. It's liberating when you just don't care anymore, and you already have another career planned. And btw, you will probably need to plan another career move yourself soon as well.

ps. one of my course partners is starting his new job Jan 8th. He told me that two other CX FO's were interviewing the same week as he. Apparently they have all been offered positions. The exodus gathers steam.

His nom-de-guerre should be ‘Morning Kool-Ade’.

And yet whilst reading your comments pleases me Trafalgar, I am dismally unconvinced that what you are saying is reality. Already in the last 2 weeks, a number of senior guys that I have flown with have already seemed to resign themselves to the fact that we are going to ‘get screwed again’ and that ‘its going to happen whether we like it or not’. I just can’t believe that there are so many pilots in this airline who remain so intimidated by this company’s past actions and are prepared to sit back and take the pineapple while others are trying to fight the worthy battle on their behalf.

I have flown for multiple airlines in the past 12 years and I can swear on my childrens lives that I have never met such a bunch of sell outs as I have in the last 5 years here. Seriously - we are in the throws of getting the biggest pineapple known to man after have been fed pineapple for the last however long and yet we still have pilots that show up to company organised functions (747 drinks most recently), we still have pilots that are putting their smug faces on company propaganda (latest cargo clan as an example) and there seems to be no roar, in fact not even so much as a mere squeak of defiance as to what is potentially approaching??

I mean seriously - the amount of guys that said if this company touch ARAPA they would be on the first flight out..... now all of a sudden they are saying ‘well we will just wait and see what they are going to offer’.

Its worse to watch than an abused woman going back to her wife beating husband time and time again because deep down she believes that he is only doing it because he really loves her.

I deeply hope that the masses in this airline will prove me wrong and I will gladly walk the line if it comes to that (which I am beginning to hope it will) - however the more I look around, the more disappointed, despondent and damn right pissed off I am starting to become.

I was one of six who started together in ADL on a Sunday afternoon a few years ago. I am the only one still here....

Trafalgar / AirProfit

Funny how it is always people you have talked to or know who are leaving and taking the advice you keep giving here. However, BOTH of you are still here. Reminds me of 1999 when we had the PILOT walks through TST, Airport terminal, Focus nights etc. People like you talk the TALK but NEVER WALK the WALK. Always wanting someone else to leave to make things better for you!
What a wasted few years post1999 were, money lost in offers not taken, 5% to support the casualties, with the usual suspects leaving the AOA so that they did not have to pay. All money LOST and NEVER recouped.

Maybe you need to focus on the comment from 'missingblade', and stop worrying about a few old guys like me. The guts of the airline are leaving, no matter what I personally do. The only thing 'never recouped' will be the pilots this airline will lose to their corporate greed and stupidity.

"The pessimist complains about the wind, the optimist expects it to change, the realist adjusts his sails". Most of the pilots at CX are now 'realists', and they are adjusting their sails. They are actively planning their escape to a better and happier career elsewhere. All the machinations of our management will result in nothing more than an empty shell of an airline. For that is all it will be when it has lost it's most committed employees. The fact of the matter is that they have already lost them in mind, and will soon lose them in body as well. There is an inevitability to the outcome, and the only people who don't see it are our management.