This time next year things will be worse for KA pilots.

I will resign within months. Depending on offers forthcoming.

Good luck all.

The logic really does escape me. "You can't have something because someone else can't have it."

SO?!

For example, we weren't allowed to jump seat on the freighter because it was a benefit another group weren't allowed.

I'm normally a dispassionate poster but do they really think we're daft?

BB

Market Forces
 

When B-Scales were introduced at Cathay in 1993, the term 'Market Forces' came to the fore. It suited the bean counters back then to blame the introduction of B-Scales on the rules pertaining to 'Market Forces'.

It appears that when 'Market Forces' come back to bite them as they are now, they look to disown the term with every excuse they possibly can.

They make the rules, they bend the rules they made, and then they flat out just seem to want to break them.

The guys leaving KA, (and the guys and girls leaving Cathay...), are showing the Company the true meaning of 'Market Forces' - but so far it appears that the Company doesn't really want to learn the lesson.

"Its been very quiet since some muppets got "free drinks" Boocs. Alas now the honeymoon is over. In the bible the Saviour healed the sick, In KA the one they believed was the saviour "sacked the sick". That was excellent timing Dick. As the Mai Tai`s et al were being savoured by the those who graced Dick with their presence, Pilots on long term sick leave were being terminated."
OCH

Get off your high horse.

Muppet

Fx

PS. has this not been discussed on the DPA site

View from across the water
 

Interesting to see that some of the BS that has afflicted us just on the west side of the PRD (mgmt, pay, no-growth strategy) has spread to the east side. We are up to 16% of pilots lost so far this year, so it sounds like we need to work a little harder to catch up with out traditional lead.

Admittedly the rostering here is not so bad, but we do have an abnormally high proportion of psychotics (both Capt and FO), so cockpit atmosphere is frequently abysmal. So dont bother coming, frankly.

And now to my point. We are replacing losses with endless supply of Aussie turboprop drivers, and are currently rapidly losing guys to Etihad (A320).

Conclusions:
1) KA will have no problem hiring guys (albeit with no Bus experience, but who cares so long as it flys, right?:ugh:)
2) If you cant stomach India (literally or not), then there is a big career airline with multiple types, routes, lengths, which is building up an A320 fleet. ...But you do have to live in the land of sand.

One more gone!

Off to the sandpit, and I believe more to follow now that commands have blown out even more.

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

One more gone?
 

F/O or Captain?

Dragonair. Don't come unless you have to ! Sad that an outfit with a good bunch of people at the coalface is spiralling so rapidly.

A newjoining FO is taking a considerable professional risk by joining. Why ? Command prospects are blowing out by years as more bad news follows. Classics going. 400F going. Expansion slowed. Flights cancelled with possible damage to the brand. Many more flights to be cancelled as attrittion hits hard and those left are demoralised and questioning their own reasons for staying.

The biggest risk is that Cathay, a few years down the track, absorbs the operation. Leaving the poor sods left with broken promises and " To the bottom of CX senioirty list you go ".

Cathay has shown nothing, absolutely nothing that suggests that KA pilots will get anything but a shafting. Their only concern is if resignitions become ridiculously disorderly. They may then have to write down the the embarassingly high price they have paid for Dragonair.

As much as we need folks at the moment. Be careful.

Whats for lunch, while it may have been 'Capt or FO' earlier today, by now it is highly likely to be 'Capt & FO'. Today & every day this week I suspect. The great communicator seems to have adopted the KA standard very quickly- that is to communicate by rumour, a common trait of all dysfunctional organisations.

is the answer Orange?

Have the resignations stopped? Has Big Dick won you all over? :eek:

This thread has been quiet for some time as we give "the new boys" time to digest what is required to fix the problems at KA. Their offer is due this week.

We will just have to wait and see if they are smart enough to fix it.

That being said, I know a lot of work is still being done by the lads in looking at other options. EK still high on the list of prospective employers as are the stretched Oz operators.

Stay tuned!

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

Very Nice Man
 

He is a very nice man. He has bought a round. We all like him. There is no more problem.

50 commands you think?... 8 advertised for April... Wont even cover the captains leaving in January... What am I missing here? Are we going to not renew some aircraft leases or something? Or are they expecting the FCS guys to come flooding back to KA, after they reject going across to CX? Surely there is a plan somewhere? What do they have to review with the cancelled command courses? Whether there will be any FOs left to upgrade? EK must be thanking TW for the boost in their applications recently... Enjoy the sandpit guys, at least they have plans to move forward, not reduce services in the fastest growing market on earth. God help us. :hmm:

Sandpit??
 

Hi Lowkoon!
Just curious, since I read some of your posts recently. Because there is nothing good about HKG and KA just wondering for whom do you work? And if it is KA/CX aren´t you leaving for something way better???
Cheers Sergiokl

Sergiokl, feel free to pm me if you are that interested in my personal details. I dont see too many people laying out their personal details and plans for the future on prune. I dont intend to be the first.

There are a couple of ways you can effect change. You can quit, or you can work within the system to make it better. For KA to improve, we need both of these. The guys that stay, owe those that left, or are leaving, alot. Without those guys voting with their feet, nothing would happen. Be under no illusion though, those guys that left, all stand to gain from leaving too. Either in quality of life, or getting to see there families, or avoiding a divorce, or just getting to go home. Not even going to touch on the health aspects, this is about resignations at KA, not the !!!! we have to breathe here. see other posts for that.

Also, if there weren't guys working to improve terms and conditions from within the company, the efforts of the guys leaing would be in vain, we would probably just get the same as CX. 3%, take it, like it all lump it style. Thanks to the hard work of a lot of guys who want it to change, but want to stay, we will see improvements. It is very short sighted to infer that the only course of action available to us is to leave.

Feel free to point out where my observations of KA and HKG are wrong, and we can have an open, unemotional, impersonal constructive discussion.

Hey Lowkoon

It seems we will have a lot of people to thank for voting with their feet. My intel tell me that the offer was so poor that the committee could not endorse it which is why KA went back to the drawing board and we are still waiting for the "back on board" offer.
This poor effort by management will only escalate the need and want of crews to get out of here.
Who knows we may even have to thank oursleves!

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

A Knight Templar had been done in..what better offer do you think the Round Table is going to offer? Remember, it wasn't the money in the first place ..according to the training captain that resigned...

And that training captain was right. The money wont stop people leaving. Guys will leave if the pay is increased it for A scale. The guys are leaving because they hate the job, and they are leaving for lifestyle improvements. FOs are also leaving because the company is shrinking in the most dynamic business environment that aviation has ever seen. Not a healthy sign. Locals are leaving because they are treated like second class citizens.

KA have to up the money to attract new hires. Thats there real problem. People leaving, and no one applying to replace them.They are offering an average package for a job with no growth pospects, thats the issue they need to fix.

:= Sorry guys, but I tend to disagree.

'A scale' salary will resolve many of my problems, and those of other crew. No-one objects to working hard if getting paid enough.

Show me the Money.

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

I wouldn't knock back A scale pay either, no one would, but having spoken to most, if not all the guys leaving, most of them stated they wouldn't stay even for A scale if there was no improvement on lifestyle,and the beligerant bully boy management style that exists. How much harder are you prepared to work for no improvement in rostering and late finishes and early starts surrounding single g days, and unlimited ability to extend your duty on arrival back in hong kong? Considering any payrise will be erroded by inflation and currency depreciation easily by the end of the term of the next agreement, if not already. Would this get you out of CC?

You will be ok if you are prepared to buy food from wet markets grown in the mainland. Oh hang on, their inflation is running at 4% per quater too, thanks to some pig ear disease. Delightful. :hmm:

Merry Christmas everyone! :)

I voted with my feet in 2005... four years was all I could stand of KA's management delivery. The schoolmaster told me even then that I couldn't expect any improvement to my own 'percieved' crap lifestyle; night after night of transporting rubber dogsh1t between Shanghai and Honkers... interspersed with more nights out of bed between Taipei and Honkers; a schedule that was supposed to return into HKG at 0055L. Only about 10% of my TPE trips got back on schedule, but it was OK to carry on continuously with being late returning because it didn't count as a night sector! Yeah, right... add to that recipe some rest periods of 18 to 30 hours and you very quickly discover how tired you are. I did go sick and my doc gave me a week off, but management insisted upon a second opinion... that second opinion from the senior medical man in HKG sent me away for up to six months! True to form, crewing delighted in telling me that as per the Vol.8 that I couldn't leave the country whilst on sick leave! The senior doc soon sorted that out for me and shipped me home for some R&R. However, I had to agree to providing a weekly update to the company (KA) as to my own considered fitness to fly! CC telephoned me every other day to quiz me about my considered fitness to return to flight status... all that with a sick-note from the senior HKG medical man; it beggars belief? I happened to be in a remote area for several days where my mobile wouldn't recieve any service; however, when I did get back with signal range... I got a bollocking for missing my weekly diagnostic report!

By all accounts... nothing much has changed since my departure; however, even considering that I took a flying job that paid me 20% less than KA and that I had to pay a considerable hike in income tax... wild horses (and a payrise) wouldn't drag me back to KA.

I've had a fantastic flying job back here in the UK where my manager's have been both considerate and polite. I've had every weekend off (public holidays included) and I've worked with a bunch of great people. I'm relaxed, fit, and well, and, I look forward to going to work on a Monday morning; whatever the weather! I've now hung-up my flying jacket, but I'm about to make a move to a sunnier (tax free) climate and export some of my aviation knowledge to pilots with 'L' plates... maybe see some of you guys in DXB?

I've never regretted my exodus; there is a life beyond HKG!

Take care 'yall. Oh, yes, and I don't have to keep the Vol.8 down the back of my trousers anymore!

The reasons people are leaving are wide and varied. There seems to be 3 core reasons 1) Salary 2) Lifestyle/rostering 3) Pollution.

Each will use one, or all of the above depending on how they feel on the day. For example, one poor chappy cited pay as the main reason for going back to Oz, but then decided that it was actually for the sake of his childrens health. I'm not saying for a minute that your families health is not important, but I think some get a bit confused with the exact reason for them leaving. The same guy said he'd probably stay if they gave us all A scale! In fact, many have said the same thing, going as far as saying that they would do anything that the company asked them!

The same guy above has hated HKG from day one, but thought it was ok to keep his family here long enough to get his gratuity! All for your families health? Yeah right...

All you have proved Big Night is that there are a multitude of reasons to leave KA. :hmm:

Yes, that's right. Just pointing out that for some it's all really about money, despite what they may say.

Each resignee has his/her own reasons for leaving.

But if you look at the resignation rate of A scale against B scale you will see a much higher percentage of resignations in the latter. I would suggest a B scale resignation rate of around 1500% greater than A scale (15-1).

So, if the companies do wish to reduce their crew losses then all they have to do is pay. That will also attract more experienced crews to apply for vacancies so that crewing numbers can be incresed, and we can all get that long sought Rostering Agreement.

Only then will all be fixed.

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

Yes Drunkenair exactly correct. Fixes aren't that hard for the 3 core problems Pay, Rosters and Pollution

1) Increase the pay. Pay or Park.
2) Fix the rostering. No more single sectors to crap hotels for hours on end, with crap transport in awful locations.
3) Have a proper basings/commuting package. Even Air China recognise they need to do this to get the correct crew.

I'm amazed there are any A scalers left! Considering there is no unfair dismissal in Hong Kong as long as they give you your 3 months notice I am surprised they haven't sacked all of the A scalers!

Time to crank this one up again, with a couple of senior captains pulling the pin this week, and quite a few more to go. Good luck gents, who's going to train the new blokes? :) Cathay?

The departures from the freighter are about to get into high gear, with all the leaks and rumours going around. Most guys are very unhappy with the uncertainty about the future, combined with a poor pay increase and no lifestyle improvement. :uhoh:

With the managers leaping off the freighter at the rate they are, cant be too comfortable for the line guys... As usual, they are the first to know, and the first to jump. Plenty of slots on the bus. All the freighter guys coming back to hkg will be interesting. That will have the senior FOs who havent dusted off their resumes yet, off to buy printer cartridges.

Nothing like suddenly dropping another 50 - 100 seniority numbers from a command overnight to have you looking elsewhere. Especially when you realise there are no new airframes until 2012, "but only if we can crew them." Suddenly 4 years away from a narrow body command. WOOOOHOOO! Think what you could do with that 320 command on the open market! Plenty of LCCs dying to snap you up. :hmm:

HKGPEK1

Is that fact what you state or rumour?

Not being smart but I haven't heard about the exodus from freighter to airbus.

Gliderboy

Don't know yet
 

It's still all rumour, nothing has been passed down to the troops yet.
A robust defence of our rights by the DPA appears to be stalling things.
Big problems re seniority and who ends up where and in what fleet and in what company and in what seat etc etc.
We had a nice happy little base at MAN until TW demonstrated his management skills. New man then shows how much better CX are at the job!!

And to top it all off, TW gets a newly created T/IRE position in MAN (the shrinking base) on the B744 fleet (the state it is in being largely attributable to his incompetence). It appears Cx have still not fully grasped the problems at KA.

Be interesting to see whether the A scalers being sent back to the Airbus fleet keep their training positions- wouldn't want to upset them by taking that away despite their being some of the poorest trainers KA have in their ranks.

I think TW will have a lot of companionless meals down route on the freighter. He will not find many friends.

No need to send the A scalers back to the Bus, I hear the scramble to run back has already started !

Just love all the RUMOURS here....

Hope u freighter blokes will be ok ;-0


Otherwise atleast come to HKG and get an airbus endorsement b4 u goooo

The KA Safety Dept has been set back of recent. Big mistakes being made by the interim CX team!

The rumors are very close to the truth.

CX do not want the classic boys to come to HKG and want to put them at the bottom of the CX list and allow them to keep their basing. It will put every FO back by around 8 - 10 yrs as they will need to start climbing the SNY list again. Capts will be offered rapid uprade to command, but that has not worked well for many in the past, with high failure rates in the CX system.

And consider that many MAN based guys want to come to HKG to get a bus rating. But they will then promptly dissapear back to the EU when they have that rating, earning as much or more than what they could in CX.

The new management, supported by the AOA Pres (who desperatley needs a win) simply want the DPA to accept the deal and roll over.

Well guess what - THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. And if they try to force thier hand then the only ones to win will be the lawyers. Oh yeah, and the other airlines who are short of crews.

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

Fact of the matter is that all FCS guys (no more gals there..) have the right to bid (and have to be rewarded) for an Airbus rating whether CX/KA like it or not... And yes, of course they will bugger off to a (decently) paid European job if they wish so, so?

The CX seniority list is great (not) but that would mean that KA airbus drivers will be junior to the freighter boys when they are send over to the dark side in a matter of years... Now THATS interesting........:rolleyes::rolleyes:


I don't think this will be an easy one AND the DPAC won't roll over.....


Cheers boys, shame the era of 3 men 0.84 comes to an end.......

Drunkenair,

What makes you think the AOA has any input at all? I suspect someone is taking their name in vain!:confused: