Cathay will not do anything
 

Cathay are very busy keeping their very own crew shortage under wraps. They simply don't have time or the inclination to be worrying about the KA problem.

This week alone they have lost 3 more F/O's. Many are now taking the lifestyle choice and passing up the command to remain on a base.

As of 2 months ago, 7 F/O's who were all within 6 months of a command opted for a permanent basing, and all as F/O's. The company has tried to talk them into staying in HK to do their command, but all have "declined" politely.

Part of the problem as I see it, is that many of us joined what we perceived was the best airline in the world to work for. And now, quite simply, it isn't the best any more. The have never treated us fairly. Now, fortunately, there are other options, and the most popular one is to be based in your home country, paid a good income, and work for an airline that treats you as human. Unfortunately that airline is no longer Cathay.

Hey Pudding

The thread is not about Cathay mate. How many of your captains are resigning by the way ? Percentage wise, our resignations are dire. Plus we made the papers.

Easy to fix too. Pay more money and buy the rostering team a computer.

This is going to be a snowball effect. The guys (gals) that are on the fence about staying at KA will be pushed over the edge by the upcoming roster chaos. People who normally don't call sick will start doing it because it is the only way to have a normal life. Have anyone tried to get a requested G day on the last roster?? Without a hefty pay adjustment and some good will gesture from L2, there might be more flats for sale in DB.

Informed today from a level 2 that 2 more resignations this afternoon... 1 from the Hong Kong Airbus fleet and 1 from the B747 fleet.......

We at CX will take action when approiate. We are just deciding whom to keep. Which Managers have what it takes to be a Cathay Manager?

Do the current Managers have what it takes to dismiss 10-20 pilots to keep the rest in line (it is coming)! We are waiting to see.

If not resolved, the CX Management Team will have to step in. We now have seconded a reconnaissance Team to KA to assimilate the damage and see where the terminations will come. It may be Management and most definitely be pilots.

It is very easy to take over KA routes with CX pilots with our A330’s and B777 aircraft on the major routes. Some of the secondary routes may have to suffer until we get the KA situation under control but it is the long-term goal that we are looking at.

We have a superior training team, which will get the job done. Our CX pilots will enjoy flying to Beijing for the Olympics.

When KA Management cannot control their current group then we at The Cathay Pacific group will sort it out, guaranteed.

Here is to my bonus.

The Management

Enjoy
 

Management

I'm sure all the KA boys will be more than relieved that you can step in a take over Beijing and hopefully Shanghai too from KA, you will appreciate the controlling ! Good proving ground for all the new CX commanders.

Enjoy the delays and of course all the new ASR's that you will enjoy filing.

Don't CX have a crewing problem too ?

The Management

I enjoy reading your posts, generally they are well thought out. I believe you're slightly off the mark with this one though.

Early 2008 KA will be drastically short of crew, so as ignorant as I believe The Management are, I do not believe they are stupid enough to take another 20 pilots out of the roster.
Aside from that I truely believe there is very little Management can do to threaten us or "keep us in line". We are really getting to the stage where one of the buckets is full..
As we all know there are jobs for us all in almost every part of the globe that we would wish to go, Uk Loco's are paying upwards of GBP100,000 and I understand commands at Jetstar are 2-3 years away for those that join now.
KA may have been a career airline 3-4 years ago, it is not now.
CX on the other hand still offers the guys the chance of basings and destination far more appealing than the filthy mainland places we are continuing to expand into.
How do you believe threatening a guy at KA with his job, is going to make him tow the line, when I suspect approx 25% of the guys are working on an exit plan anyway.

Fx

Management.......

Oh please please take over PEK.... and make sure your boys are booked into the Landmark hotel for their lovely night stops........

resignations at KA
 

For some time I've found Managements half truths quite amusing but now it's beginning to grate (exactly as he wants I'm sure).
Are the executives who are 'managing CX' so delusional now that they think the CX problem is so well addressed that they can simply move these brilliant minds sideways to KA and everything will be rosy? Is CX running like a well oiled machine? Not from where I am. In every department the input from Aircrew 'Management 'is woeful. They simply haven't got a grasp of what is going on. I can't think of anyone who even begins to have any leadership skills at all. They are the most despised group of people I have ever had the pleasure of avoiding.
Aircrew are fed up with being abused and intimidated. They will retaliate individually and collectively - they already are. How? People will either leave and go somewhere else, or maybe stay and just waste tons of fuel a day. Or go sick or refuse to 'help out' by working on Gdays. No chance whatever of extending an FDP. Why? How do you know how you will feel at the end of your extended FDP? You don't so it's unsafe so don't do it.
Stay guys - you can do more damage inside than outside.
Good luck Management. Enjoy while you can - our day is coming. Actually - I think it's here.

I've always found 'Management' to be a valid parody and a useful insight into how an alternative mindset could work. In his posts, he is always at odds with the mainstream and very confrontational. But recently, his posts have been ignoring the problems facing the CX group with no idea of how the world pilot shortage is going to affect them.

Just like the real thing! Keep up the good work Mr Management :ok:

This Is A Batting Wicket
 

Management this is a batting wicket - play but here you'll get hit for a six! :} Let’s say you represent PW. I'd be banking you bonus if I were you. Because u’ve got SH...T coming boy & it all your fault.

Same goes with Managers at KA - CX Managers will blame u for the KA Crew problems & u'll be on the street.

So why don't all managers buckle up and bowl line & line from now on since the pitch is hot. :8

There is plenty of business out there for us all to share. Get your teams behind you. Get pay & rostering together then attract the last of the remaining pilots out there. Order those additional 20 B777 for CX. And grow KA so we can fill all the last remaining slots before others do. :)

HK GOV & Public will try find fault esp. high ticket prices & delays etc. Why because we're a monopoly. So becareful bowlers this game will become very interesting if you bowl short deliveries. :eek:

As for folks leaving KA & CX well done on taking the courage. You're certainly booking your slots ahead of those that will be flowing. ;)

This is just a warm up. 2008 is a batting wicket guys. You might feel pressure with 11 to 2 on pitch. But watch those balls and smack the short ones. Enjoy:ok: Where have the bowlers gone where the bowlers gone!:D

better get out of that office more mr management........there's a pilot shortage out here old buddy and it ain't getting better.........you wouldn't have the ballz to sack 20 pilots!!............plus your minder wouldn't let you do it...don't count on that bonus either....no pilots to fly your aircraft... means aircraft on the ground...means NO REVENUE!.....can you figure the rest out mr management or do i have to help you out again!;)

Really?
 

There cant be a flightdeck crew shortage at KA.Have valid HK Licence with 744 rating,passed the 2 interviews this year,signed and forwarded the contract.......and 5 days before the commencment date e-mail comes.....Employment Offer withdrawn........3 days after I have resigned from my previous airline.......:D :D

Thanks a lot :yuk: :yuk:

Deske, probably doesnt feel like it right now, but you are one of the luckiest guys I know! think of it as a lucky omen. There is another 744 operator in HKG that actually has growth plans! novel I know, but give them a call.

I hate to say it Deske, but there isn't exactly a dearth of information about KA and it's management style. If you ignore all the friendly advice and warnings about the way they treat people then you can expect very little sympathy.

As Lowkoon says, consider it a lucky break and try your hand at an airline that actually treats you as a human being.

Deske

You weren't a scab in your career past were you? A scab was once employed by KA before and he received the same letter 3 days before starting after he quit his job, sold his car and sold his whole house full of furniture.

Ditto on the other guy's comments - they did you a favour. Now maybe you will believe this 6 pages of stuff here that you obviously chose to ignore.
Take heed anyone else interested in this place - 6 pages here sums up the management of this airline pretty well. Deske chose to ignore all the friendly warnings and now seems upset at them for acting exactly in the manner which everyone had warned him about.

I am too young to take anyone's position in a past industrial action,and my origin is from the EU,but flown some years in Asia.To tell the story in sequence,let say Interwiew1 as day1,
-interview2 on day30--(with the request to present a letter of resignation from current airline upon arrival to HKG)
-employment offer on day45-with the commencment date on day90
-signed and returned on day47,
-travel plan comes on day 60
-resigned on day 70 with no obj. letter from current airline-letter forwarded to DA,AS,TW
-employment offer withdrawn on day 75
-reply for my general Qs-(why?)-we dont give any info.........
And finally,job hunting from day75 till day110......
Roughly,thats my story with KA.......
All letters of release(3) were handled on day1

Thats a really tough station you got there Deske.

However I'm not surprised in the slightest and I know you may not see it like this right now but you are extremely lucky not to be employed in KA.

All future applicants to KA should take note of Deske1's treatment.

Is this really an airline you wish to work for when there are so many other better jobs on offer.

Boy oh Boy what a mess
 

:bored:
KA has some serious issues.
CX need KA to be successfull but have been too busy parting to realise what's going on.

They cannot keep their own show on the road successfully. :ooh: GMO just been fired..

CAD you had better give these operators a warning to pull them into line.
Refer to Swiss cheese article. :cool:

Emotional, stressed & overworked pilots in a difficult enviroment like in this part of Asia. Esp with bad SOP & a huge cockpit gradient with new joiners subjected to this stuff is a recipe for dissaster. I'm sure CX will follow at some stage. :\

This safety factor was one of the major reasons to pay more to employ more experience pilots (ie sacrifice seniority back home) etc.. now u have to scrap the barrel & still little interest. HK public pay a premium for that if an accedent were to happen & they find out what is starting to happen they'll be mad! :uhoh:

At a stage when u are printing money on these routes (basically a manopoly) Something seriouslly wrong with your planning.. :yuk:

KA & CX should be expanding together big time! & building up pilots not knocking back the culture. :ok:

Respect is not a term associated with KA management. GMP has always disliked pilots. An unpleasant piece of work. GMO is a bit part actor. A yes man for senior management. COO came from Air Hong Kong with a reputation for poor pilot relations.

The whole set up was bound to end like this. I am just surprised that you have all stuck with it for so long and others are willing to put their careers on the line to join KA.

It's all downhill from here.

Would somebody please tell me something about your package(basic, housing, education, gratuity, chinese new year bonus, medical, travel...etc, if any) at the moment given by KA, given all that poor conditions of work in there? Thanks a lot.:)

Sure Sawadecup, all you have to do is apply, and they will tell you all about it in the interview. They will even give you a copy of the terms. I think if you bothered to read, no one is leaving for better terms, infact guys going for less than half. They are leaving for the reasons posted on the previous 6 pages. Feel free to read them then go to the wannabe section for recruitment details if you still think it is a good gig.

Sorry Sawadecup, make that the previous 7 pages. My mistake.

Just call them and ask for it...

you could almost guess at it. probably about 80g usd yr for high experience FO. And I think they dont hire unless you have type right? Any dragon dudes confirm this? Plus housing allowance the the usual asian thing.

Alot of flolks thinking of working in Asia..when they add the house allowance think its a good deal. but remember, HK living long term..like many asian countries...is apartment living. If you want to have a family and have the highest standard of living...a western country is best. Do you really want to have a family in an apartment for the rest of your life? Think about it. Those that chose this route end up with an asset in their pocket maybe, but the paid a much higher price for it in my opinion.

We only live once! Go where your lifestyle will be best. Dont split hairs and go somewhere just because you#ll have a bit more pocket change.

My 2 cents worth?

Stupid Pilots
 

The level of stupidity of some who hold Pilots Licences never ceases to amaze me.

How many ffffiiii#*nngggg posts have been produced here, on other forums informing the masses about resignations of dedicated professionals, due to poor pay and conditions, inept management, rock bottom morale, horribly polluted working environment and very little hope of improvement......and yet, they still apply and spend time and money attending interview. !!!!

Rostering........Hopeless...even under new CX manager it will still be the same KA managers messing it up.

Crewing..........Dont even know where to start.

Hong Kong......Eye, skin, lung infections due pollution. How many have sent the kids home because of asthma. How many have faced marriage difficulties because wife decides to bail out with the kids because of the bad air and they are left to sort out the massive mortgage.

Crew Hotels..How long have we been telling management about the poor quality of some Crew Hotels....Yes, they listen...but then we are still in them years down the road...one not so fondly known as the "skidmark" for the quality of its rooms.

Hong Kong Dollar.....becomes more worthless every passing day.

Wake up and smell the coffee guys, take it from an incumbant, it aint pretty.

same across the straight
 

well for what it,s worth same here in Taiwan,resignations etc.no raise or any contract improvement as well yet half of total pay of hkg.we shall join you on your long march(to better jobs,enviroment etc)what field of employment demands so much yet pays so little now,who has a decrease in living standards not many !!time to just stop and let the cargo and passangers wait.we need so much,
good luck to all

Think you just summed up 7 pages for everyone OldChinaHand. Anyway, why arent you at work????? :}

I think you guys are being charitable to sawadecup. I thought he must have been a wind up considering the subject matter of this thread. There is the wannabe forum after all. :hmm:

Sorry Lowkoon, I think you may have mistaken me for someone who gives a sh1t. I could not be bothered. :ugh:

Hey, Red Leader, bet there's plenty smoke from your ass now. :D

Oh now you are being disingenuous - he never was Red Leader! :=

The bleeding obvious
 

Pprune is big. It has reach. Despite the very obvious limitations (unverifiable comment), everyone reads it. Does anybody out there know a pilot that does not read it from time to time?

I have not met a single new joiner in recent years whose opinion of the company was not influenced to some extent by Pprune.

If I was in cx/ka management I would definitely spend some money on shoring up my reputation on Pprune. I would expect my PR people to be able to do that - its what I pay them for.

It seems obvious to me that they are lurking out there somewhere. Probably posting in this thread!

Milly

A330 Captains
 

Are wanted by Jet Airways and Kingfisher. If you have a B777 rating you can come this afternoon.

The problems with KA do not seem to be comprehended fully at CX.

The CX DFO, repeating earlier words of Tony Tyler wrote yesterday "The long term plan for Dragonair remains unchanged - the aim is to grow the airline as a regional, short-haul operator in China and Asia with a
complementary route network to Cathay Pacific".

That is a problem, not a positive.

Many crew came to Dragonair (eg ex-Ansett) when they knew they could be based in Australia and would operate the A330 on basings. That was shot down after the take-over by Tyler.

In the year and a bit since that plan was terminated they have seen:

- Godawful, arrogant, head-in-the-sand and dismissive management getting amazingly worse (the only management mantra being 'if you don't like it f***-off).

-Stressful and tiring, repetitive flight operations into horrible destinations.

- Abysmal rostering practices (the GMO & GMA are only partly responsible for that, the buffoon who runs the section should have been dismissed many years ago). Productivity may not look good on paper to new owners but the stresses on families of being exhausted has been telling.

- Associated huge increases in divorces.

- Pollution killing their families at a faster (if you could believe it) rate than before.

- Plummeting US/HK Dollar (meaning they are far worse off if expatriates).

- Complete lack of company interest in improving T&C.

- Foolish set-up of 747-400 basing policy (GMO, against directives and the pilot union stance paid less than his Manchester base and has destroyed the operation - so many pilots have walked they face sidelining a newly delivered airframe, is this some perverse joke?).

What a way to run a business.

But CX need to be clear, removing the GMO and a few minions is only a small percentage of the problems that need to be addressed.

Even if the haemorraging of aircrew stopped today (it won't, the momentum is there now and the corporate advice of 'if you don't like it f***-off' has been heeded) KA faces a grim future.

Globally amongst professional pilots, KA (and increasingly HK) now has an appalling name and whilst CX may still attract pilots to their operation because of the attractiveness of bases, seconding them to KA will not appeal to pilots any more.

There is a great deal of work needed at KA, telling pilots they will be confined to pergatory forever as per the above missive is not a good start.

Tony Tyler's letter just lost another half dozen KA crews. It was insipid and uninspiring.

Steady the ship he bellows ?

Alright, I apologise Tony. A bit harsh. But give us a sign. :)

Please share And Then

I 'walked' from KA two years ago and I've never looked back. It might well mean a drop in salary and an increase in local taxation, but what price can you put on your own health and sanity? The downward spiral just keeps on gaining momentum and the very poor management style has simply added energy to what was originaly an incipient spin. Originally, money wasn't the issue, but it 'sure as hell' is now; however, KA haven't ever recognised that they've abused their own crews with illegal rostering practices, and, certainly haven't inspired them with good leadership. There are now far too many issues to be addressed throughout the whole company and the damage is now done. L2 leadership just hasn't ever been in place, nor anyone with the balls to stand up and be counted. It's one thing to replace the GMO, but there's no point in giving any support to him unless the new incumbent is prepared to put his neck on the line and give some needed support to his troops!

I'd like to think that a new GMO would 'cut some slack' to his crews and give some good advice to the CEO... or, tender his resignation... which the last one should have done some years ago! It aint easy is it?

Good luck to all of you chaps :ok:... I sincerely hope that 2008 might bring some hope into your lives.

TCF

..........i note the maggot (aka The Management) has not responded to my post of the 31st October...U C lads........... no BALLZ! he ain't gunna sack 1 pilot let alone 20.................the man ain't gor no culture....:mad:

Mr. Truth Seeker, you haven’t been around long have you? Not in the difficult times anyway, most likely after the dust ball was still in the air.

You have no idea what we are willing or not willing to do. If we have to sack pilots for the benefit of The Cathay Pacific Group in the long run, we will.

Pilot applications are stacked very high in recruitment. We will just lower our requirement i.e. hire from regional airlines instead to legacy carriers.

Young man, a little word of advice “Never under estimate the will of The Management of The Cathay Pacific Group”. You have been warned.

Most likely will never put your head above the parapet, but may ask others to do it for you.

Good luck with your career.

To my bonus.

The Management