The Management

Me thinks ye hath lost the plot.

I can assure you that Tony is well aware of the dire straits that KA is now in.

Richard has carte blanche to protect the franchise. Expect some positive developments for without them the franchise is worthless.

Carte blanche, you are sadly mistaken.

Trust me; there will be no money involved. Let’s wait and see. Time will tell what our strategy will be.



To my bonus.



The Management

Money
 

Mr M, I used to like your posts but now you're getting irritating you'll be pleased to know. Unless more money is involved then the KA meltdown will continue. Then let's see who loses money.
KA is only a short step ahead of CX so they'd better use it as a learning opportunity.

to the management;
just out of curiosity, how much was your bonus last year??

Or it is a secret...............?????????????????????????

The Management
Sir, I do believe you have a very small winkie!

1) Free beers. ( meanwhile half a dozen more KA crews on interview )

2)...........?????????

Look The Management. We want to help. The demise of our GMO was rather vicious in a corporate sense. It is a lonely place when pilot attrition is apportioned to your watch. But 12% in six months is a basket case. He had to go. Thatcherite management practices are untenable.

If KA pilots keep leaving. And they will as pathfinders are already reporting back. It could be you who is uncermoniously dumped.

Two KA aircraft are parked. We want to help. :)

It could be you next. The Board is watching.

I can only sit back and laugh in disbelief. Management had been warned repeatedly of the problems facing the crews, yet they chose not to act. What was needed back then were some simple rostering rules and benefits that were, and are, the norm for an expat, as well as a little pay rise. Rather than improve the terms and conditions they let the HR dept loose on them and cut them so as to make KA less attractive. They did this so well that it is even unattractive to locals and ex-cadets.

So what is needed now? I would suggest that anything less than CX parity in salary, housing, education and other benefits might be too little too late. A rostering agreement is also essential. And discussions need to be held sooner rather than later on CX/KA crew integration. After all we don't want another ASL/VETA/CX Freighters fiasco.

As for The Management, thanks for the heads up on your possible plans. Let me repay the favour. In 1989 almost the entire pilot workforce of Australia fought for better terms and conditions. They didn't win. But neither did the Airlines. Of the 4 airlines involved none exist today, yet the majority of pilots, if not retired, are still flying.

CX was close to a similar situation in 2000. Then you fired 52 employees. That was smart - but look at the skeletons that came out of the closet and the issues that continue to affect, and cost you, even today. Try it again and you never know what things will surface. So my advice is not to try it again. The sores are still there and if you scratch too hard they will start bleeding.

In closing, I don't begrudge you your bonus. In fact we should all get one. But having dozens of planes on the ground is a sure way to reduce your bonus, possibly even your position.


Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

So what is needed now? I would suggest that anything less than CX parity in salary, housing, education and other benefits might be too little too late


dreaming again ??

Here's a challenge for NUMERO:

Try and calculate the damage done to KA by this current situation.
Quite a challenge to put in $$ the cost of goodwill, contract compliance, retraining/re-hiring, payouts, public image - loss of sales, cancelled flights etc etc.

Drunken Air

I would add that intimidation of the pilot workforce is more applicable to our CX bretheren. In the case of KA pilots, it is an obsolete management concept which would be quite difficult in application.

Why ? Financial and professional manoeuvrability. With undertones of apathy and disinterest: KA is a crap job, no future prospects and I can walk very quickly and easily in the present environment of a near zero pilot jobless rate.

Sizematters.

Are you too stupid to realise the disadvantage of having a lower professional cost base in your midst ?

KA will be offered multiples of your 3%. And they will still leave. Why ? Because they can.

And you ? Miserable and insecure. Take the 3%. :)

Are you too stupid to realise the disadvantage of having a lower professional cost base in your midst ?


er, "andthen" what is it about Cathay's multiple pay scales that no-one told you ???? Swire will compare you with "American Eagle, or some other Feeder carrier and disclaim any comparison with other airlines just as they say "UPS, Fedex is not our competition in the freight market, and we pay based on what we think the US carriers would pay if they thought they could get away with it..................


yes you'll get a multiple of 3%...........like times one ..er ....= 3%

Sizematters

I dont think you quite get it - no-one gives a sh1t anymore, 30% probably would'nt do it. People are walking and will continue to do so - its not just the money anymore. We are fed up with the lifestyle or lack of it.

Bully-boy tactics will just make it happen even faster.

welcome back onboard ! :sad:

Err, Size m' boy..... Cx haven't paid 10 BILLION dollars for American Eagle.

American eagle arent flying 3 class 330s either.

Funny how that arguement only works 1 way. Why arent we using that same arguement for our freighter fleets? What does UPS and Fedex pay? :hmm:

They guys are leaving for many reasons. The truth is 12% payrise would not have stopped any of them leaving. This is not a money fix. The only ones stupid enough to believe that are across the road. The only thing the money will fix is that the new hires might start turning up.

People are leaving for many other reasons. Some (senior FOs) because there is no future growth planned for KA. Tony and Nicks letter made that very clear. We may pick up another mainland destination or 2, but who would stay for that? We are under no illusions though, no one joined KA for the exotic destinations. There is no fleet progression, the disasterous HKRO saw to that. What must that have cost them??? Whats the bet most of them would have stayed if they could progress on to the 400 if they could stay on the agreed HKG package? You would have been killed in the rush to get on it. Also they left for lifestyle issues like no rostering stability, even when there were no aircraft on order they couldnt get the crewing numbers right. Does anyone still think there will be 20 commands next year? That might cover the guys going to CCA.

In short, Kenny had to clean the place out, the managers at all levels had been caught lying to him so many times. "Sure Kenny, we can crew the new destinations." "Sure Kenny, the freighter will be crewed and ready for the christmas increased schedule." "Dont worry Kenny, CC only affects a few trouble makers. We have it all under control". "Dont worry Kenny, its only a hollow threat, none of them will leave." "I was misquoted, I never told them if they dont like it to leave." and from leave dept, "We have a new leave allocation system we found at download.com that will improve the leave management, the crew will love it!" "No Kenny, its normal for half the fleet to be terminating before 8pm. Nothing to do with lack of crew, there may be a few troublemakers on sick leave, but they will be dealt with. Our passengers just dont like to fly at night."

Who can the poor bloke trust? Selling softdrinks would never have been this much fun! :)

Lowkoon

I agree that the first wave of attrition ( 12%) could not be a attributed to financial factors alone.

But the next wave(s) will. If pay isn't addressed shortly it will be fair indication of what the future holds.

Rostering will take a long time to fix. Money talks in the meantime!!

"This is not a money fix|"

Strangely... this seems to be the view coming out of the big house across the road. What, if any, are the KA driver's initial thoughts on RH parachuting into KA house?

Whilst I don't imagine RH has a pot of gold in his nav bag; what things would you like to see. Some suggestions being mentioned around the campfire are a "CX styled" Roster Practices Agreement; the "prospect" of Integration with the CX Seniority List giving the "prospect" of Basings and commuter rosters. I use the word "prospect" because KA pilots going on CX bases in the near future doesn't solve KA's immediate crewing problems....... it makes it worse!

Having met RH a few times, one thing you will get is a measured and polite style of Management. I am sure he will give you the impression, at least, that you are being listened to and respected. Time will only tell how much power the CX Board has devolved to him to make meaningful changes.

So, assume RH reads these pages, what changes would you suggest?....

Guys will continue to leave and guys will continue failing to show. One recent Airbus course had one of four new joiners turn up !

Money is a very big factor. Especially with command prospects slowing. A KA FO wage is tough going and an unattractive prospect for the medium to long term.

I would like to help. :)

Could I please have J class travel on CX.

1. Rostering
2. The constant attacks from personnel to make our lives more difficult.
3. Rostering
4. Rostering
5. I think you get the idea.
Have to agree with the above, I think it is almost too far gone.
The next "wave" about to begin, including Captains checked to the line less than twelve months.

Surely that indicates the depth of the problem!!

Oz2

Basings.

Expatriates are beginning to comprehend that you can't raise children in the toxic cesspool that HK has now become, for many/most it already doesn't or soon won't matter how much you pay.

KA pilots are only leaving sooner than CX crew because their lifestyle is far worse, rosters appalling, divorces skyrocketing, flying stressful, management 1950's RAF-style, inadequate hotel accommodation and the salaries lower. The recent edict from CX that KA pilots will forever be condemned to fly regionally has also accelerated the desire of many to escape.

Immediate parity with CX pay scales may provide temporary relief but I suspect CX will also face the same issues of staff attrition too, should it not expand its own basings availability. Environmental issues are becoming paramount.

Pilots need to be able to do 7-9 days on and identical days off with confirmed J/F travel to/from a CX destination, the same will need also to apply to CX crew. There will also need to be some form of currency protection.

Inconceiveable now? It's not a 'big-ticket' item and will in all likelihood be the key to corporate success or failure.

KA now targeting 2 local young operater drivers, one stone kill 2 birds! Jet school for :mad: Sw re group, quick and much saver for quality guys to line.:ok:

Sizematters

Enjoy your 3%. An educated guess tells me we will be given a lot more than 3%. Reason? Pilots leaving (many of them Captains) at a faster rate than they can be recruited and services cancelled.

Mini Cooper

New services to Busan, Fukuoka, Sendai and shortly Kathmandu are all operated by KA aircraft and KA crews. What are you talking about? It's you that doesn't get it. The whole CX strategy for HKG is based on sucking revenue i.e. transfer pax out of China and booking them through Hong Kong on to the CX network. That's why they bought Dragonair - not the slots. The brand is well known on the mainland and as long as they sort out the mess at KA the big plan will work. If they don't KA will implode within 3-9 months. At that point the price paid for KA would look a little over the top.

Now I'm sure in the long term CX would eventually mop up the mess and would be happy to start a shorthaul network in China. But why would the Swire group do that when they have just bought one?:ugh:

The KA pilot group are quite happy to crack on with the job but only if we're getting a fair deal. If we don't get it we WILL leave. Reason? Most of us have got medium/heavy jet command time so it's easy. This isn't CX and we're not tied to a so called 'career'. We're here for one reason only - MONEY. At the moment the majority of the company are working on exit plans. I just hope for Cathay's sake it's not too little too late.

You lot over the road need to stop being so arrogant, you might find we are paid more than you shortly. After all, we work harder and fly to crap destinations in China - something you seem to aspire to........

A Typical two week roster period?
 

Days off?

Vermin, Lowkoon, and a few other very vocal Ppruners,

You guys have been very very vocal for quite a long period of time now about how bad it is, particularly you Vermin. With all your talk of how bad it is, how there's jobs everywhere, how we can all walk at any time - just why are you guys still here????? You are easily the most vocal about how bad it is yet you're still here whilst other guys (12%) have just quietly gone off and voted with their hoofs. What ARE you waiting for???

F-16
An average month would give us 7-9 days off. Most of the time before you have day off you will finish between 2000-2300. Not so many early starts.
On 320 you might do 4 sector days but not on A330. Usually you do 5-6 days on with a few rosterchanges 1-3 days off and then the same again.
On A330 you will spend more than 300 hours away from base with no OT. The roster will change almost every 2-3 days so you can never make any plans.
Usually days are fairly long between 8-13 hours. Nightstops are bad with strange hotels in suburbs around in Asia with Cabin crew that don't want to meet up.
Overall the KA gig when it comes to roster is probably one of the worst but we do have more than 10 weeks leave a year. Most guys use some sickleave to balance lifestyle also.
Money is not so good any longer and thats why most guys are planning their exit.

Another for the wish list. The things that cost nothing. Is an end to the 'special rostering' for some. The guys that get the least overnights but somehow blessed with more standby days. Overtime is far from consistent.

I hear it is worse on the 320.

1- J Class ID 90

2- Equitable rostering and no special favours.

And everything the DPA asked for.

I want to help. :)

Trevor, its sweet that you want to get to know me more intimately, but trust me big fella, Im not your type! :O

In all seriousness though, my family and friends know my plans for the future very well. If I have flown with you, then you probably know it too. I appreciate that your observations of life at Ka may differ from mine, feel free to post them here, give potential new hires a balanced perspective if you think thats what is missing from a thread titled "Resignations at KA".

If you dont like it you can leave right Trev? Sounds vaguely familiar... :)

Lowkoon,

1. What the hell are you on about, what is this "want to get to know you better rubbish." Just where have you dredged up that pearl from?

2. Thank you that you appreciate that I may have a different opinion to you regarding life at KA. I don't actually (which is why I at least have resigned) I didn't insinuate that. I AM insinuating that for a long time you have told the world how bad it is, but unlike me, you seem to be stickin' around. Of course you may be digging a tunnel out, that's not for me to know, but bloody hell, its taking a freakin long time.
As I said, I agree with most of the comments about KA, and I for one do not have any opinions to "balance" against these.

3. Yes, that old line, if you don't like it you can leave - the circle is complete, it gets back to the question to you on my post - for soooooooo long now you have told the world how bad it is and how we can all walk in the job rich environment, but you are still here.

4. I am sure we have flown together, or at least know each other well - and I am equally sure we probably like each other and get on like a house on fire.

Trev

Lowkoon,

As you know verbal intent is lost with the written word. I wasn't trying to impy if you don't like it leave - not at all. I was actually trying to get at your reasons for still being here - ie, kids two years to go in school, 500 more wide body command hours. Everyone does have their reasons.

Dan Buster,
Great post mate!

Sorry to interupt the Lover's tiff....

but Ka-life; you say "more than 10 weeks leave a year"..... how many weeks leave a year do you get at KA?

We get 6 weeks a year with the option to append days off to these periods.

The combination can then be approx 10 weeks max.

Nothing is free as we all know, and going without your days off for the remaining period can leave you wrecked prior to your leave. The company also has an unwritten policy of cramming a months work into the remaining weeks further adding to the fatigue levels.

I thought that was the case as I had heard a Dragonair guy saying they could take a week off every month by taking 4 days leave and then appending 3 days off (G days) to it.

The CX guys in the conversation all looked at the bottom of their glasses as they had visions of an 8 day pattern followed by 3 days off followed by 4days leave and then a further 8 day pattern..... no wonder you guys are leaving.

Whilst not knocking the ability to append G-days to leave; G days can easily become leave days in the company's eyes.

What a novel idea!

To my Bonus.

The Management.

Liam,

Just to clarify the leave question, you should note that KA crews can bid for up to 10 lots of leave of 4 days to which the company will append 3 G (no duty) days. If one bids and is awarded this leave we can expect we will get roughly an additional 4 G days off for the remainder of the month.

That means a total of about 11 days off, inlcuding your 1 weeks leave, in a month, and you will still do either 70+ hours (320) or be away for 10 nights (330) for the remainder of the month.

And realise the fact that to be eligible to get this 'generous' leave you must bid for it prior to September the previous year. They then
allocate according to fleet/seat/seniority and a points system. Senior guys get around 6 or 7 periods approved while the junior guys get 2 or 3 approved, if lucky.

Oh yeah, and if you happen to miss out on bidding, or are employed after September so are unable to place bids, then your leave is allocated at their discretion, and usually with no consultation. In some cases the first you know of it is when it appears on your roster. Some guys only get 7 days notice!

And any leave can be used as part of the recovery and min rest periods between flights. And there is no guarantee of additional G days appended to any leave allocated you.

Still sound OK??

Don't just take passing comments around the bar as Gospel, and look into the claims fully before you make any grandoise judgement.

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

Drunkenair
 

"Don't just take passing comments around the bar as Gospel, and look into the claims fully before you make any grandoise judgement"


Just so we understand each other... no grandoise judgement, but one of your colleagues (KA-life) stated he gets 10 weeks leave, which on first pass, sounds good. Clearly, his view of what constitutes leave is different from mine (and I suspect yours).

Whilst the scheme assists people to get a block of days off per month, (which I applaud) it comes at a heck of a cost.

"Still sound OK?" It didn't sound OK the first time I heard of it, hence the reason myself and the others looked into the bottom of our beer glasses and the reason our astute friend The Management has shown some interest.

No Bank Holidays
 

And don't forget that the 42 days a year leave includes the bank holidays which pilots are rostered for like any other day, what, 10 a year? So 32 days is less than 5 weeks. As with everything in life it depends how you look at it.

abc1....So how many of you guys would actually do something about it and leave....

Oh, about 12% of the pilot workforce in the last 3 months with more to come.

Is that enough for you?

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned that another KA 330 Capt resigned this week.....:confused:

I can only guess that it's not really news anymore but commonplace.

b.

Its been very quiet since some muppets got "free drinks" Boocs. Alas now the honeymoon is over. In the bible the Saviour healed the sick, In KA the one they believed was the saviour "sacked the sick". That was excellent timing Dick. As the Mai Tai`s et al were being savoured by the those who graced Dick with their presence, Pilots on long term sick leave were being terminated.

Next step, retire the clasic freighter fleet 11 months earlier than planned. Crews were told by an email confirming a "Rumour". For the FE's, years of loyal service thanked with a "rumour confirmed".

Now the "new Dawn" has been realised. There is no magic bullet. There is no Roster improvement, There is no pay offer on the table. There is just talk, stalling, playing for time and the last few scraps of meat being sliced from the KA Carcass.

And lets not forget the freindly advice being meted out out by KA senior managers "Whatever you guys do, dont turn down the companies offer". Realisation is sinking in amongst the troops, resignations are gearing up again.

CX did not go to fix Dragon, they only went to "Find Out why they are leaving". It is rumored that after 3 weeks they still cannot figure it out!!!

They cannot believe that someone is not prepared to work for nothing just because they are Cathay!!!

Nick has spoken at Kitty city saying that if we give them a big raise we are going to have to give one to everyone else.

So guys do not expect CX to come with a better offer because they will not...cannot set the precedent!!!