Scab List!
 

How bad do you want to get your name on one?

52 professional pilots were sacked last week for doing nothing more than supporting their association!!

If you are considering employment with Cathay Pacific in the near future you would be best advised to wait until every one of my colleague's are returned to full flying duties. I Know things are emmotional right now and many pilots would love to join Cathay Pacific but I assure you that if you accept a job you will find life in Hong Kong harder than it already is. You will not have any friends, no one to have a drink with on outport, no one will be able to look you in the eyes.

You don't need to knowingly do this yourselves or you families. If you join Cathay Pacific before my mates are back here with me you WILL forever in my eyes be "SCABS"!

YOU ARE FORWARNED......

Geez,I can see its not going to be long untill this thread gets locked.

Oh boy..wondering when the rhetoric would start...by the way, look at your ALPA scablist if you have one, and see how many names on that recently became "members in good standing" when CO voted in the union...there is no strike in progress at CX, nor will there ever be....look up the word scab in the dictionary please...another hollow threat...while entering the fracas in the harbour as a new employee might not be adviseable (I sure wouldn't), you would by no definition be a scab..If IFALPA wants to make jackasses of themselves then so be it...once again hollow threats hot air and just B.S. in general from a union boy...

cxwannabe who registered on July 12 with a yahoo.com address is either out of touch with reality or an imposter.

Should cxwannabe be in CX he does not exhibit any future command making skills and may be nervous about his own position on the pecking order.

I do not believe the sacked crew will be re-employed by CX ( or SQ ) and will have greater difficulty obtaining future employment than that experienced so far by Scott Munro.

I would hope after the dust clears, that those who were sacked purely for political reasons (if any) would be re-employed...but the chances are slim...cxwannabee...or aviation wannabee

I would suggest that the original post on this thread should be entered under the thread title "These postings are not from CX pilots"

After reading the various threads on the CX dispute I feel I must comment.

I am not management of any outfit and I have no intention to be. Call me spineless or a scab I don't give a damn.

The question must be asked, If you don't like the conditions and are not happy in your present employment, why don't you find alternative employment elsewhere? If you are as good and of such high quality as some of you suggest you are, it should not be that difficult I'm damned sure when conditions get so bad in my present job, that I am unable to work, I'll be off. Done it before and will do the same again.

With your industrial action you will not achieve anything positive. The truth is people will never stick together as a group, pilots included. Therefore we are all subject to the oldest management trick in the book, divide and rule. The sooner you lot realise this the better. You will not win in the long term. You can be replaced, or are some of you so deluded you think you are indispensable? There are people out there who would give their right arm to be given the job that some of you people have and for half the salaries, that's the reality. Could they do the job as well as you? Probably and be a lot less trouble.

So wind your necks in and get back to work. :D :D :D

A sensible post at last. Elsewhere in this CX forum I expressed my personal views. Perhaps the truth hurts since there was little response. Sit back, look at your bank account and provident fund, take a look at your family photos and ask yourself if you want to be led down the road to dispair by the vitriolic blinkered minds shown in this CX forum at present, or the ability of your less than capable Union playing for high stakes with your careers without due reference to you. So who has been awarded the captains' positions to replace those departees, and the FO's? Have they refused ? Did they take the jobs or must they recruit outside at a better price ?
I hate to see such obviously intelligent people who can fly a hi tech piece of equipment so well be so inane beyond their sphere of expertise to their own detriment.
Oh what the hell, go and get yourselves fired and I'll fly SQ in the meantime till it all settles out, which it will, whatever you cook up.

I will reply to your threads one at a time;

Loc -Out; The sackinggs were political, union busting and desperate. A strike in Hong Kong is AGAINST THE LAW. Scab is not in the dictionary and the meaning is evolving. In our case a person knowingly accepting a job that was taken in this dispute is a SCAB. As far as IFALPA calling for a hiring ban, why are you calling them jack asses they are a steward of your profession whether you are at the airline level or not. Some inconvinience at the hiring stage is much better than indesciminate firing (sacking) 25 years into your career. You must be too young to see that yet.

772 Well...command making skills???? you probably mean command potential. A commander must be able to make decisions for himself, make difficult decisions, all the 52 have those qualities, and then some.
Scott Munro will work again as will the 52 of my brothers. SQ has little to do with it. Once you realize that a majority of AOA members know that there is life outside CX ,are willing to lay their jobs on the line and will see this to the end you ,might understand.

And finally LOC-OUT...

Where to start. Well you might begin by saying that you would take a job from a union martyr. In the end you would not find any happiness in it. If you had a grievence with a company, if you were treated unfairly or if you had your pay, conditions and benifits reduced you would have no one to blame but yourself. You may want to stay at an airline some day, instead of putting your family through the upheaval of moving, training, and starting at the bottom.
You are abseolutely right about divide and conquer but we will not be divided.

AOA 100%

Enjoy aviation
Cheers

Mo Man Tai;

Sorry I missed your reply in the first post.

So you think that an outside post represents a sensible post, well that is spoken like a true outsider.

As far as the bank account and provident fund, that will all be gone the minute that a manager takes a dislike to us and we are sacked. Gone, and along with it all the savings we have amassed as well. No exaggeration the company's sackings are a major financial blow to all. To those fired immediately and to those to be fired in the future. That is exactly why we must have some rules by which we can protect our jobs from indescriminate management aggression.

Carreers at CX: What kind of career can end at a moments notice with no justification? What kind of career has no protection ? Any representation that stands against a management dedicated to controlling pilots instead of working with them is good representation.

Captains' upgrades: Well aren't you jumping the gun a little. We are 7 days post sackings. The HKAOA has a game plan. There are further developements to come.

Intelligence: Well you have hit the nail on the head. If pilots were not intelligent they would not know that they were being so badly screwed. We are expected to fly to the letter of the operations manuals, aircraft manuals, jeppeson manuals, MELS, NOTAMS, FTDLs, and most importantly company employment contracts. When the management sees fit to change the contract, alter the conditions or change the interpretations, they will do so. We are used to a regulated industry governed by rules, rules not to be broken. Cathay Pacific feels it can break a contract or change wording/interpretation whenever it chooses. We are smart enough to know what is out there, to know what we are worth, and to see through all the company propaganda. It is all about intelligence.

SPHERE OF EXPERTISE: My sphere of expertise is aviation, my life is aviaiton, if this is to be aviation to come, I would gladly see CX crumble rather than give in.

Please do fly SQ. Please continue to do that in the future.

If nothing else Cathay Pacific has proven that they cannot handle expansion. They cannot handle hiring, they cannot handle training, they cannot handle aircraft aquisition, they have know idea of what it would take to survivie in anything less than a monopoly. Perhaps they really are not deserving of their rights in CLK and Hong Kong. This would be entirely the fault of the current Flight Operations management.

SAFE FLYING
Cheers

"nullThe question must be asked, If you don't like the conditions and are not happy in your present employment, why don't you find alternative employment elsewhere?"

What an assinine comment.

What would YOU do at every turn when things get difficult? Pack up and go home? Your resume must be long indeed with all the companies you've left after "not liking it".

It is not in a Professional's make up to up and quit. One strives to make the workplace a better place to work. By bringing constructive criticisim to the fore, one improves not only one's own lot, but those of all Pilots. Have you never been de-briefed on points that you could do better after a sim evaluation? Do we not all accept criticism and move on to better ourselves?

The company's childish "my way or the highway" attitude will cripple it in the future. The workforce has a long memory and will not tolerate draconian management tactics. I predict that all the Pilots will be reinstated without prejudice and that a serious management shake-up will ensue.

All the best, and chin up to my brother's at CX, from a former resident of the Fragrant Harbour. You have my support.

TTFN

cxwannabe,

for those of us not involved with cx can you give us a run-down on why these pilots were sacked. When I read this thread I get the feeling there is not much support among your flying friends. Which I on one hand find par for the course, and on the other a bit strange.

I know, and so should you, that it is close to impossible to have pilots pull at the same end of the rope. I have seen it more than once in my career, and you would probably see it again when they all line up for an interview with cx. Survival of the fittest, some call it.

But the lack of support. When the Chairman of the Ryanair Pilot Union is sacked, the thread is filled with support in a couple of days.

Tell us more.

:mad: cxwannabe...I should of replied earlier.....Pull your head in.....
As if all pilots around the world are going to turn down an interview with Cathay before your "brothers" get re-employed. It won't happen!!! The pilots wanting to join CX have got no gripe with you. It's between you and management. Pilots' wont put there future plans on hold to suit a few!!! Well I wouldn't anyway!!!

Limanovember,

Thanks for your reply. Recently WE at CX finally got our own private forum and since then almost all CX pilots have chosen not to enter into debate on the issues with outsiders and wannabes on this forum. Many posters on this forum in the past have been extremely inflammatory in their views and comments! Many are managers from within CX. Many are just pissed off passengers or perhaps Wannabes. We the pilots within CX are better off expelling our energies within a known group as opposed to trying to convince Joe Public who's right or wrong. We the employees at CX know the truth about what's going on and we the employees need to work as one to resolve these very issues. No one will rest until my 52 mates are re-instated! They were not fired for any labour action they were victims in a powerfull attempt to once and for all break our association/ union and have a subserviant work force. The issues are complicated as they always are. If you yourself are a pilot you'll understand the core issues are not renumeration but rostering, flight time limitations, and benifits. Many of us here would rather fight the fight here now rather than later. I've been here for more than 6 years and don't want to throw that away as I'm sure many others also don't want to do BUT it's time we got a life, a roster and some respect! Our rosters have been in shambles as long as I have been here and WHEN we win this battle this will once again be a fine company to be employed by (ie: pre-1983) It's been 8 years of slashing and burning here and the time to end is soon. Time to grow this company into what it is destined to become but not without my fallen comrades!

Please don't fall into the trap of thinking or believing that any one who lost their job deserved it or had it coming! We have a disiplinary and grievence procedure that our employeer should have used in a case worthy of being sacked. The fact of the matter is that 52 of these men are fine people with families to feed and NOWHERE in the civilized world do people deserve to be treated with such contempt.

The management of CX are running scared we are as united as ever and we are winning the fight for truth, honour and justice. Slowly the media here in Hong Kong is starting to ask questions themselves. A CX manager BTW was quoted several weeks age as saying "all we need to do is sack 20-30 pilots and watch the rest fall into line!" How would any of you feel if you or a good mate of yours was in that 50??? Would you put your job on the line for your best mate who was wrongfully vicimized?

I WILL because its the right thing to do!!

We are going to win this mark my words!

cxwannabe you are both naive and wrong.
Naive if you believe that what is happening in HK comes even close to a stike or anything even resembling such an industrial action. Not only does a worker have rights, but surprise surprise so doe management - without both the workplace would be anarchic and chaos.
Both words you can look up in a reputable dictionary along with "scab" - which is there in the meaning to which you thought you were referring. :confused:

EYES WIDE SHUT,
Only when you've actually been here do you realize the importants of making a move like that. Well let me tell you something. Taking a job during a dispute in which people have lost their livlyhoods and their families are in disarray is not going to make you many friends. Why not wait a few weeks or months till its all over and you can join on a good contract??

After all it's already won. Just a matter of how much CX is willing to spend.....

[ 18 July 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]

CXwannabe.

You have some serious issues... Or you are CXmanagement ( I think ). Your posts are counter productive for both groups and demonstrate your level of intelligence.

I hope the best for Cathay pilots in their rightful struggle for better conditions.

I will be calling AOA soon to find their official standing on pilot recruitment and hiring. CXWannabe is no authority especially as this is AN ANONYMOUS FORUM.
Oh I am nor a scab or a pilot for CX... USed to want to work for them. But now... don't think so.

Oh dear cx wannabee there come the true colors out again...idle threats hollow promises...same stuff different day!!

Eyeswideshut has the perfect moniker... Closed to all but what is important to him. Closed so that he doesn't realize that if it can happen to the "other guy" it can just as easily happen to him! Closed to the working's and history of organized labour.

The perfect place for him is the French Foreign Legion and North Africa of the '20's! The Mercenaries would be proud of his attitude.

What an imbacile... :confused:

TTYL

'57, I just don't understand why you (and others) revel in the (mis)fortune of others. Did your Mum drop you on your head when you were little? Please enlighten me.

The CX guys are doomed.....more terminations are surely on the way. Will they find other jobs....well, ask yourself, who would want to hire them?
If they look to SIA, well the Chinese there are smarter than they think. EK? Hmmm, well maybe, but for Captains it's back to the RHS. KE? Nope, they are going to decrease foreigh employment.
Think they had better settle with their management.

How would you propose they run their "Airline" when they have sacked the flight crew? What do you think the crew that remains or the unfortunate crew that is hired will think of such a blood thirsty management?

Sounds like the demise of the managment to me. You don't fire the TEAM you fire the COACH!!! How desperate can the "oval office" get?

TTYL

Even though the link doesn't work Solo we're still not having it on this site. Please do not attempt to place it here again - long time policy here at the Towers.

[ 18 July 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]

Touching, don't you think, that people like the wannabee retain such faith in the power of organized labour that they believe that someone in need of a good job would be scared off by the thought of being called a scab? Where did he get the idea that anyone valued his opinion to such a degree?

"You can call me RJ, you can call me Ray, you can call me anything, I'll take that job, now go away....."

CXWANNABE - Tell me WHY were these 49 pilots singled out. Were they all AOA reps? Australian? Kiwi? How were they singled out?
Why are outthere flying? Its to late for retalatory actions now. Did you accept the pay raise CX offered.....same as accepting the new order in my book.

You will get nowhere with your aggresive first mail. If I needed a job and CX was the only option I would take it, wheither you like it or not.

" CX wannabe "

" If you are considering employment with Cathay Pacific in the near future you would be best advised to wait until every one of my colleague's are returned to full flying duties "

Who the hell do you think you are ??? huh ? cxwannabe ... that is not our problem ... obviously the management has a reason to do so or whoever that is in charged has the right to do it .. wheter you or ouyr "mates" like it or not ... always remember that you are working for someone or a company you're still an employee and you just don't understand what is an employer .

what ?? huh ?? very pissed or what ?? just use your brains and think about it "MATE" you or your "mayes" are the ones whose causing all the disputes and mess .. to me , i think it's just too childish and although thy're captains which i respect but they "mates" just don't use their head and think properly like throwing nuts at people .

don't try to be a hero or god here .. you don't own CX or what .. why ask others not to join until your mates comes back to work ... so , what .. if others join , it's too far way down the seniority list and do you think that your mates will talk or have a drink with the new guys ?? hhmmm why don't you tell others about that ??

just a thought and a comment ,

a330 :rolleyes:

a330. Good grief. With an attitude like that, you sir are going to experience the most miserable career imaginable. Remember, if you join CX now, you will be working with ONE THOUSAND FOUR HUNDRED aircrew, EVERY ONE OF WHICH WILL KNOW WHO YOU ARE. You will have an EXTREMELY miserable time of things EVERY DAY you are at work. Why don't you and your kind piss-off and find a bunch of cretins like yourself to work with.... :mad:

is that your problem MR.ALI .... ?? huh ??? it's just non of your business ... who cares .. is it me or you whose joining >?? where ever i go fly or with whom still non of your business .. probably you're just sitting at home typing and sending out your resumes .. hehehe .. me at least i'm flying .. i dont really care much here .. it's these people just wanna mess around themselves and loves to create problem and keeps on discouraging others to join 'coz these guys are just too selfish ...

it's always like that .. b4 you get into somewhere .. you'll say or do almost anything but once you're in you think that you're a big timer or you're "GOD" .. huh ..

probably i may new to this but ,... just try to sit back and think about it ..

a330 :)

I feel the love in the air, this is not even the official CX website! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :D

I dont get it?

The 52 pilots that were fired were not "SO" but were FO's and Captains.

The vacancies that have since become available by these unfortunate departures are for FO and Captain positions.

These very positions are going to be "REPLACED" by INTERNAL UPGRADES.

Are these very upgraders the "scabs" you are referring to "cxwannabe" ? Because I certainly dont believe they are.

The AOA has not discouraged wanabees, so just quit the whinging. Attacking wanabee SO's wont bring your mates back.

CXWANNABE, I've been following this story with great interest, both here and in the international press. You've got to remember this when starting a thread like this one: "When you're stood out there in public, on your one remaining leg, all those around you will be kicking at your shin!"
Those of us that actually KNOW what's going on over there support you guys 100%! I sincerely believe that you guys can win this one. It has been done before!

I understand that, even given their spina bifida performance in previous pilot/management clashes, the C&T pilots in CX may well refuse to train uprgrades, which is why the ads are in that format

You can not refuse to train anybody that management select for training. The only thing you can do is to resign from check and training if you don't agree with management's decision.

[ 19 July 2001: Message edited by: HotDog ]

If nothing else this post has done exactly what I intended it to do. INSPIRE THOUGHT as to what's happening here in the "Fragrant Harbour".

Some get overly excited as we saw with a330s post but I have read some of his posts in the past and he has lived up to what I would expect from an Airline wannabe stuck somewhere in Burma! or was it Yangon?

Anyway I don't want to sit here and individually attack some of the other replies that are obviously from people aspiring to have a job like mine or perhaps TAKE IT should I be on the next list of 50-100?? This management has shown the world their hand and for any real professional pilots out there you know what the right and honourable thing to do in these circumstances. I have not nor ever would concider taking a position on the back of a fellow aviator. These fine men were fired without cause and outside of contractual company proceedures. FULL STOP!! Families are in turmoil, careers upended and life plans foregone.

Show them some compassion before you step over their carcasses onroute to your "dream job". Give us the chance to fix things here for ourselves before you jump into something that only those of us here can fully understand or comprehend.

I know the term I used to start this thread off is a powerfull one. I also know the literal definition of it. What people need to realize is that emotions are very high here right now and those of us who remain will know and remember those who stood and fought the fight for our sacked mates, and those that didn't, and almost as importantly who joined and acted as the enemies reinforcements.

So Wannabe - would you accept an upgrade to a position vacated by one of the 52?

Good question Apollo 13!!!So there cx wannabee..if you really work there....is there a freeze on current cx pilots accepting commands???? hope so...lets not be hypocrites now

How long does it take for an upgrde at CX? How long do before you think the 49r's will regain their postitions?

With the cock-up the wet leases are making of the Cathay "brand" I can't see this lasting too much longer.

As for the mercenaries out there looking to advance themselves, consequences be-damned, give your head a shake :confused: You would be joining a company in an active labour dispute. Those that work there now will label you a traitor and tool of management. Management will look at you as a greed striken opportunist they can take advantage of should the need arise.

Can't say that is the way an enjoyable lifetime career should start...

TTYL

cxwannabee, if you work for CX now - at least go change your handle to reflect it.

cx wannabe...and if you don't work for cx, what would be your reply to a question in an interview for cx such as...how do you think cx managment has handled this situation. Food for thought.
Get over your emotions. If none of your mates get back in, will you be angry with all that join cx from this day on. If so, your a sorry case. I have said before...if you don't like the conditions or who you are working for, go find another employer offering what you wan't.

i do strictly agree with eyes wide shut .. if you're not happy , don't stay hear bitching about yourself and about your "mates" (aussies) and also telling others what to do .. not happy and thinking that you're so good and herioc ... just go somewhere else !!!

:( :o :D :eek: :rolleyes: :p :p :p