Although I can not speak for them personally im sure that our locally employed guys & girls dont want to see there COS degraded either.

So please guy's, see this for what it is and get off your racial high horse

BTW the position you take could just be the upgrade of one of the local S/O's, ever thought of that!!!
No I didnt think so!!!!

[This message has been edited by HUSTLER (edited 22 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by HUSTLER (edited 22 April 2001).]

Yes Liam, I did based my comments on your posting.However I guessed my posting did not get my intentions through (english is not my first tongue).

I do understand that the pay package is subject to local market rates.However it is for the same "job done".Not to mention that the pay offered would undermine the HKG based pilots's pay structure & their continuing struggle for better pay & working conditions (which in turn will benchmark our pay here).

As Hustler rightfully said, we might be taking a slot for the locals there, god knows how long will they progress in their career after being sidelined during the colonised years.So, they are other hidden issues here to be answered by the CX management.

I still believe that CX management is taking all the pilots who are with CX or trying to get into CX for a ride.The "divide & rule" policy used by the former colonist are being put to good use here.

Good luck again to the pilots with CX on their ongoing struggle.Hopefully it will lead to better terms for the pilots here who wants to be based in KUL.

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif
PILOST

Why did Management try and hide this from us???

Why werent these positions posted in the Notice Book like all the other vacant positions, per our 99 agreement ??

I really think there's more to this than meets the eye.

Conan,
You are advising, "Join mainline like all the other pilots.."

My understanding is the KUL base is being formed under the Freighter Crewing Agreement, sanctioned by the AOA, and as such they, like all the guys who joined Veta (post 1 Jan 2000) join the mainline seniority list at the bottom. They do not prejudice the S/O's presently employed as the new joiners have a seniority number junior to them. In these circumstances I do not understand how the KUL base is a threat. Do you have further info?

Pilost, all CX pilots understand the "same job done" argument, however CX, like most multinational companies, whether that be Toyota, Cocacola or even MAS, employ staff based out the company's home country on local terms. All based pilots are paid on "local terms" and the KUL pilots are not being singled out. We may not like it, but that is the way of the world and if you can suggest an alternative...

[This message has been edited by Liam Gallagher (edited 22 April 2001).]

Quite right Liam, But, There are some unique aspects to our 'work life' that do not effect 'normal' executives: 1) We have a shorter (in general) length of career, and a defined end date - limiting earnings 2) Our monthly earning are limited legally by the number of hours we can work 3)Most importantly, we do not have the opportunity to transfer laterally between companies. We are inexorably 'married' to the seniority list. Changing employers results in a massive drop in pay. 4)Our career can be lost by many seemingly benign ailments/accidents, whereas anyone working in an office could continue. The best analogy is to the career of a professional athlete. We deserve exceptional pay and benefits that are appropriate to the risks we take. As in all things there should be the appropriate risk/reward relationship.

Conan:

Quote: >>The reason that we have only started taking Chinese pilots recently is one of economics. There were no Chinese pilots with licences in Hong Kong, and there fore it was expedient to recruit foreign Pilots who were already trained( The usual requirements were Previous Command on heavy Jets and at least 5000 hours Plus) Times have changed !!! so have the requirements.<<

You are only partially correct. I guess you have not been around long enough to know it. The reason why there was no licensed HK Chinese pilots in Hong Kong was because the HK CAD (under British rule) would not issue a CPL or ATPL unless the pilot was offered employment by one of the local airlines, and CX was the only one at that time. In the 70’s and early 80’s, a few HK Chinese obtained their UK CAA licences but was rejected by CX due their lack of experience. At that time, CX was only hiring pilots with either the experience or have the right connections to the company. Fortunately, those few HK Chinese pilots later found employment with other Asian carriers such as SQ and CAL.

The first “Chinese” pilot was hired by DragonAir in the mid 80’s (may be 1986? Sorry, my memory is leaving me!!). He is actually an Australian of Chinese origin. Perhaps someone here can verify it, I heard a rumour that there were a few Chinese pilots in the very early days of CX. Those few actually left on their own and went “back” to China or Taiwan. One of the reasons why CX didn’t hire any Chinese pilots was because the old CX management was afraid that a Chinese pilot might hijack a CX aircraft and fly it to China. I know that sounded stupid but that was the worry back in the 50’s till the 70’s. In the early 80’s, the Thatcher government agreed to revert HKG back to China. All the big Hongs and the HK government had to localize their staff and that’s when CX started the cadet pilot programme.

Sorry Liam but I have to take issue.
1/Please point out all the pilots recruited from Malaysia to date. I don't think there is one.
2/The Cathay Pacific seniority list ( for what it's worth ) reads like the United nations.
The Owners and management of Cathay Pacific Airways have in their wisdom have recruited from all over the world and based these pilots in Hong Kong. Any Malaysians? I don't think so.Why not?
2/ Cathay operates Freighters and pax aircraft on a regular basis to all the places where there are based crew, in proportionate numbers.
3/ Cathay Pacific Airways operates a freighter twice a week to Penang.
4/ CPA wants to recruit 100 pilots initially out of KUL ( I believe). This number is totally out of proportion to the number of services. Now take that idea to its logical conclusion! Scary.
I make this point because you compare it to multinational companies employing locals to work in local factories. In fact the more appropriate comparison is that of United Airlines popping off down to Acapulco and recruiting 1000 Mexicans in order to DT them to LA to operate through the rest of the network. Can you see that happening??

This is exploitation of the worst kind. It is totally despicable.
Give the Malaysians a job in HK at the going rate (hopefully pre 94 ).

However, having said all of the above...the whole thing is designed to distract us from the REAL issues in HK.
All of you who were not represented at the last EGM either in person or by proxy should be bloody ashamed.

[This message has been edited by Herb (edited 22 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Herb (edited 22 April 2001).]

thepenguin,
I agree with your 4 points regarding pilot's pay, however the only point I was trying to make was it is inappropriate to brand CX as a racist employer on the basis that it paid different pay to pilots on different bases when it is a worldwide common practice to employ staff on local terms. Moreover, if people do not like it, rather than engage in a rather distasteful thread promoting racial disharmony, suggesting a practical alternative would be more appropriate.

Herb, I am unaware that CX is aiming to recruit 100 pilots. The pax fleet may have a proportionate number of pilots on base to the flights into the base. However, because the Freight fleet has no HKG based pilots this is not so. For example, on the 200F the Oz bases run "heavy" and are effectively "bused" up to HKG.

Joyrider said it and you have said it and perhaps we should listen; This issue is of dubious import when compared to the major issues facing us. Are we in danger of taking our eye of the ball?

Eye off the ball? Exactly what the company wants and almost everybody posting on this and the other related thread is falling over themselves to oblige.

'Hay there Herb, think your days as an expat "high paid guy" are numbered. Too bad for you but the world has caught up, and learned from your managements' mistakes in the past.

Well said Liam. I do not believe that there is any racist intent in any of CX' practises. Pure coincidence. I'm sure there are some great Malaysian pilots and I would be happy to fly with them...unfortunately it appears that we have not heard from any great Malaysian pilots on these pages. We appear to basically be of one mind. I will not converse with these tossers any more.

411A,

I see you are as well liked in the Middle East forum as you are here!

Now fade away into retirement gracefully old man

411A, I presume you mean the thirld world has caught up! Because that is what CX is rapidly becoming - a third world carrier.

All the aircrew in CX thought they were joining a career airline. You know like BA, QF, AC, UA, NW, DL, AA etc. Now they find they are employed by the likes of ...... well I guess you can guess the rest! A very large number of aircrew in this company have seen their COS and remuneration deteriorate year after year. They have now decided that the time has come to stop the rot. That is what this is about, if we go down the hole then what chance for a better deal for anyone in this region. However, I do believe SQ is now going to have to pay more to stop the drift of captains to KL and this is the way it should be! We move for more money when it is offered on the open and free market. We should not move to another carrier because a corrupt management decides to use us as a weapon to further alienate and disadvantage it's existing workforce. Despite what 411 is trying to say this is not about race or colour. It is about corrupt management, that is all. As for you Liam, how are you going to react when CX decides all freighter crew will be based in KUL, PEN, BOM, DEL, BKK, KHI, etc. on local salaries? If you don't want to go there then you won't have a job anymore. Clearly there are lots of guys who would love to fly big aircraft and live at home in those ports. There are also a lot of suitably qualified captains in those places who could move straight into the LHS of a CX freighter. Why shouldn't CX management recruit them? We apparently do not have a legally binding basing agreement (just a morally binding one!!) So CX offers captain slots in BOM, no takers so they recruit on the local market. This is where we are going if we do not stop this now. The KUL advertisements are just step one in this process. Do you understand now guys?

Mole--
I think now you may, just may be starting to get my drift. Your problems at CX can be traced back many years to the stubborn refusal of CX management long ago to exclude local guys from the flight deck. If they had set up a cadet training program in the distant past, you would not NOW have to recruit from afar, because you would have local guys along side you to fight for better wages, working conditions, etc. Instead, your management now can use the excuse of lower paid offshore pilots to continue to chip away at your benefits. Your OWN management, now AND in the past, is your own worst enemy. And you guys have just now started to wake up to this fact?

Ah 411, you really must have a boring life! Every post you make shows increasingly how little you know. And then people take the time to explain the real issues for you, and then a few posts later... there you are again with the same irrelevant point using different words! http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/banghead.gif

Let's see, your argument seems to be "if we started the cadet training program sooner, we wouldn't be having all these problems".

Yeah, good one. Thanks again for all your insightful posts. http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/thebirds.gif



[This message has been edited by fossil fuel (edited 24 April 2001).]

fossel fuel--
You're welcome :)

411, let me give you the info
The CX local pilots / cadets are paid equal to the expats in Hong Kong, ( except for housing) there are some benefits differences in the medical scheme which I do not agree with at all but that is a pilot v management issue:

The point is there is One Asia base! Hong Kong, the pay is to live here with our expensive cost of living. Purchasing goods and services in Hong Kong!!! Which furthers the HKG ecconomy! CX can hire Maylasians to live here in Hong Kong, on Hong Kong Wages, then they ( the Maylasians ) are equal to all pilots here, local and expat, not just a cheaper option! that management is using to divert our attentions from thereal issue's at hand!

Mole,

I do not not believe the recruitment of F/Os onto the KUL base threatens any CX pilot. However, the expansion of the base to include Captains in a timeframe consistent with a device to defeat the seniority list should, and I suggest, would, be met with a robust response similar to the recent "extendees" saga. I am unaware of any intention, or hint of intention, on the company's behalf to undertake such a folly.

It seems to me that the recruitment of F/O's onto the KUL base is not in breach of any agreement; perhaps we just negotiated the agreements poorly. In these circumstances it is wholly unaceptable for some of our colleagues (and I exclude you from this comment) to post on PPRUNE in a manner that denigrates the high standards the majority of us seek to attain.

Further, we can only "negotiate" with the company on a finite number of issues and presently this is a non-issue when compared to roster practices and should be treated accordingly IMHO.

Mole,
For the record, non of the Captains from SQ have drifted to KUL but a few have gone the opposite on local terms. Lets see the response if CX management were to offer a lets say SYD, BNE, MEL, FRA, SIN, AMS basing at 75% the current salary. You wanna put a bet on it ? Contributing to HKG economy ? how many thousands are you in HKG at the moment? So all the 1300 of SQ guys must be the one supporting Singapore economy now I guess....IMHO, concentrate on getting a better deal for the current pilots in CX now and stop worrying about what other do or do not get. After all , they are all pilots and the are not oblivious to what the market rates are unless they are blind.

BTW BD, they dont like to live in HKG and they got a choice, unlike the others already there. And if they dont like it after a few years, they can apply again to the National Carrier and get a job but this option is only applicable to some of us in this world unless you like to go back to the jumpseat, keeping the jepps chart and changing the freq on a QF 744 and be junior to a 22 year old whom are already there...