CX FO based in KUL
 

Just saw the CX advert in Malaysian papers for direct entry FO(freighter fleet) based in KUL.For year one the salary approx HKG 340,000.And after year three successful candidate may be transfered to HKG as an expat year four HKG based crew(salary quoted HKG 810,780).I am flying in this part of the world and am really interested in this advert.Anyone up there at the fragrant harbour willing to give his thoughts on this will be of great help.My present salary including allowance(meal plus productivity allowance) is approx of what CX is offering for a year one FO based in KUL.But what really attract me is the chance to be based in HKG after the third year.Some questions here:
1.Is this part of the ASL or is it CX?
2.What sort of duty hour per month on the freighter?
3.I mention "chance"(CX says suitable)...what are the chances of going HKG based?What is the rate of intake or conversion percentage from freighter to pax fleet crew?What do they mean by suitable?
4.The HKG810,000 for year four HKG based FO,does that include housing rental?
5.I know there are also similar schemes in LAX and SYD,are there any other foreign based FO in any other part of the world?
5.Working conditions?

Any input,good or bad will be of great help.
THANKS

...this company just can't seem to help themselves from antagonising us further....!! This is in effect another ASL....and with larger implications for the future. The company seems to have decided that, not content with just devaluing the competent and professional aircrew they already have, they are now taking it a step further and beginning to employ aircrew from 'third world countries'....and pay them accordingly. The thinking is obvious. Use the present body of professional checkers and trainers to train pilots who, in years to come will, a)happily work for much less money, and b) never contemplate 'industrial' action. It is time we told this management just what we think about their continuing and unrelenting psychotic determination to degrade and devalue us. The 31 of March is almost upon us. Perhaps a little 'message' of our displeasure is appropriate on that date. If we don't use the commercial advantages we have now to re-establish a sense of fairness and professional respect from our management, then we never will. You might as well all make plans to find another job, because in a few very short years the present (unlivable) conditions we now experience will seem like 'paradise' to what is to come. If you think I am being alarmist, then just look back at how drastically things have changed between 1990 and today. This airline is run by immoral, corrupt and self-serving individuals (KB, RF,NR...etc) who's ONLY interest is to feather their own nests, at the expense of everything they once believed in. They need stopping. They are running scared, and it will take only a very small 'push' to send this whole operation of the edge of the cliff. We need to ALL take a stand against this obvious attack on our futures. If we, don't, we won't have a future. There is no longer the luxury available to any of us of doing 'nothing'. We must ALL now do our part. We can beat this management, as our colleauges in the US have done so comprehensively to thier managements. This employment, and home basing of Malaysians is the biggest threat yet, far bigger than ASL was. Take the time to understand WHY it is such a long-range threat, and then understand that there is no longer any option to standing up to this continual destruction of our careers. Next thing will be the employing of Thais, based in Thailand, Singaporeans based in Singapore, and Bulgarians, based in Europe. What do you think your chances of a well paying, long lasting career will be then....? Stop it NOW.

.... and the Chinese from the mainland.

I have heard rumors of "third world" based and operated freighters for a year or more. It was to be ASL-II or the-son-of-ASL. I personally thought that after the "intergration" that the idea had been dropped. Guess not.

It is amazing what this management will do the further anger the pilots. In the midst of the current negotiations and turmoil to attempt to pull of a new "scheme" is simply amazing. Have they really lost it?

Really who cares whether management antagonize the pilot body?If i am management i think that is the best way to undercut the big chunk paid to employees be it pilots or flight attendants or engineers.If you look at it realistically ,if they (third world pilots) are cheaper and as qualified why not?Sooner or later they will change CX to be a totally asian airline,run and manage by the chinese and all this a great thanks to the british.The best part of this is that the pilot body in CX itself is fragmented,most probably looking after their self interest.

Sing the tune: It's the end of the world as we know it...

It seems we are faced once again with an aggressive, sureptitious, and ultimately dangerous challenge to our careers. And, once again, we see that the issue is mainly in the hands of the Check and Trainers. Will they agree to help train the 'first' group of aircrew who are being hired with the express aim of 'replacing' us in several years time? Gentlemen, be under no illusions, this management is determined to push us right up to the point of serious industrial action, believing that there is NO provocation great enough to provoke us into striking. With this mindset, they are convinced that by using our labour over the next few years, they can 'evolve' the nature of the aircrew body to the point that those of us from the 'traditional' backgrounds can be given their walking papers. There is no doubt that the company intends on hiring first Malaysians, then other regional aircrew (Singapore, Thailand, China, Eastern Europe, etc...) until, within a few short years, they have a 'pool' of aircrew that they can retain, and dispense with everyone of us as and when they feel like it. I advise everyone of us (particularly the Check and Trianers) to begin to appreciate the 'Grand Plan' that is being attempted. If this management succeeds, it will be only a few short years before our careers are over. The only option will be to agree to work on 'local' terms....and who amongst us can tolerate a 'career' based on those conditions? It is time that we all resolved to stop this insanity. If it comes to a strike, then so be it. I was once in C & T, and couldn't stomach the mentality of those at the top of this airline (KB, RF, etc...). Be in no doubt,.....this management is completely and utterly determined to push ahead with a program of devaluing our profession, with the reward being obscene bonuses. I urge all of you to take a stand. Challenge those of us who are in C & T to explain what they are willing to do about this abomination. It is time that those of us who have reaped the best rewards this career had to offer, now show that they possess character, and do what is right. Resign from C & T in protest and disgust. Use whatever excuse you need....but do it. If you don't, you will surely be sowing the seeds of your OWN destruction, never mind the destruction of the careers of hundreds of your colleagues. We need to show that there is a heavy price to pay for becoming and remaining one of 'Hitlers willing henchmen'... It is timely to remind ourselves of ASL's arrival on the scene. Those of you in C & T who were Flight Engineers trained your own replacements. No sooner where there enough ASL engineers, then suddenly all of you were made redundant. Remember how that felt. To see your dismissal letter in your mailbox, knowing that others of many years less seniority were continuing in employment, and you were now out on the street. Interestingly, some of those same very senior engineers have been rehired into CXF lately, on the bottom of the seniority list, being paid a quarter of their original salary. I believe that this time they intend the same for the pilots. Once they have a pool of 'Command' qualified pilots on the books (remember, they can hire a lot of pilots as FO's, who in fact can be quickly trained as Captains), they will issue an ultimatum (remember 1999...), and the choice will be either resign, or take far worse terms than even B-scale as we now know it. This is the final straw, and we must shut this airline down. The management must be made to realise that the cost of attacking us is far greater than ANY savings they may realise. It is time the AOA stopped treating this management with respect and patience. The management are stalling for time....and time is our enemy. Time for courage, resolve and determination to end this madness....once and for all. OCD

Well said OCD. Isn't it by now obvious that this management has NOTHING BUT CONTEMPT for it's aircrew? How much more evidence do we need to prove that the ONLY thing left to us is to embark on a campaign of MAJOR industrial action. This management is determined to keep pushing and pushing, with the hope that we are too weak to react. Well, I for one am not too weak, and am ready to take a stand for what I KNOW I AM WORTH. How about the rest of you.....?

Squak7700......just a word of advice mate. You will be MOST unwelcome in this company by the present aircrew. This deal is designed to undermine our careers, and we will NOT take kindly to those who take employment on such terms. Fifteen hours in a -400 across the Pacific is a mighty uncomfortable place to be when the other 3 crew members are burning with resentment. Stay away......you have your warning.

Ok chaps, What the hell does it take to get this aircrew body upset? If this does not do it then you all deserve the outcome. Rise up now! and keep the pressure on management. These c@nts are determined to hire whoever will do the job for the least money. A scale, B scale, ASL, and now
D SCALE!! Safety be damned. Does this matter to anyone besides those of us that post often? I want to hear from you!

Higher level managers at CX invariably use the airline as a mere stepping-stone for promotion within the Swire system. As a result they make short-term decisions which make them look good even if these decisions are detrimental to the company as a whole over the longer term.

Aircrew on the other hand will invariably stay with our airline for decades and have a far longer-term perspective of what is beneficial to the health of the airline - if at times a little unrealistic.

It is of course easy to make silly comments like GreatWay To Fly "The best part of this is that the pilot body in CX itself....looking after their self interest" but these are invariably created by jealousy, myopia or a combination of both.

A decision to employ 'cheap foreign labour' is difficult to criticise without drawing howls of indignation based on political correctness and claims of attitudes of colonial superiority.

However it MUST be said that this exercise of attempting to employ aircrew external to the standard mechanism of recruiting younger pilots, training them within our culture of the CX system and allowing them to acquire skill and knowledge over time is pure folly.

It is a typical short-term, knee-jerk reaction to a problem which our management has brought on itself. Combined with the significant cultural anomalies which (according to Flt International research) are THE most significant factor in Human Factors related accidents today, Cathay has created a potential minefield.

By bypassing the accepted means of pilot recruitment and experience acquisition CX is now lowering its standards. With lower standards the potential for grave problems increases. Should those problems directly or indirectly cause a 'hull-loss' then who should be to blame? Probably not the manager who made the decision as he will have been promoted elsewhere as a result his short-term managerial genius.

This argument will no doubt be dismissed as scaremongering by some but I would like anybody to show where it is flawed.

So to the CX managers responsible for such short-term sillyness, could I suggest that flight operations can not be run the same way as bottling plants ot property. As laughable as it may be, there ARE things which pilots know about and you guys don't and I believe this decision is one of them.

Perhaps you should look a little more thoroughly at the ramifications of your decisions before you proceed further.

Just a thought.

The situation is indeed a very grave one. The Flight Ops are a complete shambles and in a few days will be pushed over the edge of 'firefighting' and into chaos.
We must get our PR right here because otherwise the ensuing nightmare for the passengers will be blamed on the 'greedy aircrew'.
How about the AOA issuing a press release stating that things are 'at breaking point' and poor morale is caused by 'managements continuing attack on aircrew conditions despite making record profits'.
All this BEFORE the end of the month to negate what CX will say when their operation finally grinds to a halt.
DO IT NOW.............
Finally WHERE IS THE CAD in all of this??
Quite agree with OCD's comments about C+T. You've trained your replacements boys. Keep taking the pay and stuff everyone else eh??
Nice one.

If this plan goes through CX will become another MAS, a basket case airline run by cronies. CX management must be following the "Dilbert Principle"!

Is it my imagination or did i just read, less than 2 weeks, a letter to crew from NR stating that 'at least CX will no longer hire direct entry F/O's onto the freighter'???? Does this guy have ANY idea what the flight ops. dept staff(which he co-manages)are up to?..or is it 'situation normal tell the troops anything and they'll believe it'...duh!

I think CX intend to fund their 'war campaign' with the other 3 months profit share they owe everyone!!!!

Has anyone else seen this information in print, or had confirmation from our loving staff department ?

Called the AOA. It's for real! Check-out RKB's letter on the AOA web site.

ASL B scales? What must "The real ASL" make of this.

[This message has been edited by Checkmate (edited 29 March 2001).]

Disgusting!

Remember 6 years or so ago when a certain person said "Cosap 94 was NOT the thin edge of the wedge". Yeah right. Now that was a good one. It sure turned out to be a hell of a lot bigger wedge than I imagined.

[This message has been edited by fossil fuel (edited 28 March 2001).]

Checkmate

Dunno Mate. Haven't heard anything more than whats posted on here. Gawd only knows who they would get to train them if it were to happen-CXF overstretched training wise on both fleets as it is. Once again divide and rule seems to rule OK?
We don't (of course) have access to your AOA website so don't know what the letter alludes to - can U indicate as there would seem to be an area of mutual interest here?

Hope UR feeling fit and well for the month of April. Box of choccies on way if not!

Fr8t M8te

This has nothing to do with ASL whatsoever. NR stated that he would not be recruiting any more ASL crew or 'go down that route'.

These guys will be recruited by CX!

They will be employed by VETA on a basing!

They will get 15.5% provident fund!

They will get to HKG on the PAX fleet after 3 years!

The AOA must put a stop to this right now.

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