CX FO based in KUL
 

Just saw the CX advert in Malaysian papers for direct entry FO(freighter fleet) based in KUL.For year one the salary approx HKG 340,000.And after year three successful candidate may be transfered to HKG as an expat year four HKG based crew(salary quoted HKG 810,780).I am flying in this part of the world and am really interested in this advert.Anyone up there at the fragrant harbour willing to give his thoughts on this will be of great help.My present salary including allowance(meal plus productivity allowance) is approx of what CX is offering for a year one FO based in KUL.But what really attract me is the chance to be based in HKG after the third year.Some questions here:
1.Is this part of the ASL or is it CX?
2.What sort of duty hour per month on the freighter?
3.I mention "chance"(CX says suitable)...what are the chances of going HKG based?What is the rate of intake or conversion percentage from freighter to pax fleet crew?What do they mean by suitable?
4.The HKG810,000 for year four HKG based FO,does that include housing rental?
5.I know there are also similar schemes in LAX and SYD,are there any other foreign based FO in any other part of the world?
5.Working conditions?

Any input,good or bad will be of great help.
THANKS

...this company just can't seem to help themselves from antagonising us further....!! This is in effect another ASL....and with larger implications for the future. The company seems to have decided that, not content with just devaluing the competent and professional aircrew they already have, they are now taking it a step further and beginning to employ aircrew from 'third world countries'....and pay them accordingly. The thinking is obvious. Use the present body of professional checkers and trainers to train pilots who, in years to come will, a)happily work for much less money, and b) never contemplate 'industrial' action. It is time we told this management just what we think about their continuing and unrelenting psychotic determination to degrade and devalue us. The 31 of March is almost upon us. Perhaps a little 'message' of our displeasure is appropriate on that date. If we don't use the commercial advantages we have now to re-establish a sense of fairness and professional respect from our management, then we never will. You might as well all make plans to find another job, because in a few very short years the present (unlivable) conditions we now experience will seem like 'paradise' to what is to come. If you think I am being alarmist, then just look back at how drastically things have changed between 1990 and today. This airline is run by immoral, corrupt and self-serving individuals (KB, RF,NR...etc) who's ONLY interest is to feather their own nests, at the expense of everything they once believed in. They need stopping. They are running scared, and it will take only a very small 'push' to send this whole operation of the edge of the cliff. We need to ALL take a stand against this obvious attack on our futures. If we, don't, we won't have a future. There is no longer the luxury available to any of us of doing 'nothing'. We must ALL now do our part. We can beat this management, as our colleauges in the US have done so comprehensively to thier managements. This employment, and home basing of Malaysians is the biggest threat yet, far bigger than ASL was. Take the time to understand WHY it is such a long-range threat, and then understand that there is no longer any option to standing up to this continual destruction of our careers. Next thing will be the employing of Thais, based in Thailand, Singaporeans based in Singapore, and Bulgarians, based in Europe. What do you think your chances of a well paying, long lasting career will be then....? Stop it NOW.

.... and the Chinese from the mainland.

I have heard rumors of "third world" based and operated freighters for a year or more. It was to be ASL-II or the-son-of-ASL. I personally thought that after the "intergration" that the idea had been dropped. Guess not.

It is amazing what this management will do the further anger the pilots. In the midst of the current negotiations and turmoil to attempt to pull of a new "scheme" is simply amazing. Have they really lost it?

Really who cares whether management antagonize the pilot body?If i am management i think that is the best way to undercut the big chunk paid to employees be it pilots or flight attendants or engineers.If you look at it realistically ,if they (third world pilots) are cheaper and as qualified why not?Sooner or later they will change CX to be a totally asian airline,run and manage by the chinese and all this a great thanks to the british.The best part of this is that the pilot body in CX itself is fragmented,most probably looking after their self interest.

Sing the tune: It's the end of the world as we know it...

It seems we are faced once again with an aggressive, sureptitious, and ultimately dangerous challenge to our careers. And, once again, we see that the issue is mainly in the hands of the Check and Trainers. Will they agree to help train the 'first' group of aircrew who are being hired with the express aim of 'replacing' us in several years time? Gentlemen, be under no illusions, this management is determined to push us right up to the point of serious industrial action, believing that there is NO provocation great enough to provoke us into striking. With this mindset, they are convinced that by using our labour over the next few years, they can 'evolve' the nature of the aircrew body to the point that those of us from the 'traditional' backgrounds can be given their walking papers. There is no doubt that the company intends on hiring first Malaysians, then other regional aircrew (Singapore, Thailand, China, Eastern Europe, etc...) until, within a few short years, they have a 'pool' of aircrew that they can retain, and dispense with everyone of us as and when they feel like it. I advise everyone of us (particularly the Check and Trianers) to begin to appreciate the 'Grand Plan' that is being attempted. If this management succeeds, it will be only a few short years before our careers are over. The only option will be to agree to work on 'local' terms....and who amongst us can tolerate a 'career' based on those conditions? It is time that we all resolved to stop this insanity. If it comes to a strike, then so be it. I was once in C & T, and couldn't stomach the mentality of those at the top of this airline (KB, RF, etc...). Be in no doubt,.....this management is completely and utterly determined to push ahead with a program of devaluing our profession, with the reward being obscene bonuses. I urge all of you to take a stand. Challenge those of us who are in C & T to explain what they are willing to do about this abomination. It is time that those of us who have reaped the best rewards this career had to offer, now show that they possess character, and do what is right. Resign from C & T in protest and disgust. Use whatever excuse you need....but do it. If you don't, you will surely be sowing the seeds of your OWN destruction, never mind the destruction of the careers of hundreds of your colleagues. We need to show that there is a heavy price to pay for becoming and remaining one of 'Hitlers willing henchmen'... It is timely to remind ourselves of ASL's arrival on the scene. Those of you in C & T who were Flight Engineers trained your own replacements. No sooner where there enough ASL engineers, then suddenly all of you were made redundant. Remember how that felt. To see your dismissal letter in your mailbox, knowing that others of many years less seniority were continuing in employment, and you were now out on the street. Interestingly, some of those same very senior engineers have been rehired into CXF lately, on the bottom of the seniority list, being paid a quarter of their original salary. I believe that this time they intend the same for the pilots. Once they have a pool of 'Command' qualified pilots on the books (remember, they can hire a lot of pilots as FO's, who in fact can be quickly trained as Captains), they will issue an ultimatum (remember 1999...), and the choice will be either resign, or take far worse terms than even B-scale as we now know it. This is the final straw, and we must shut this airline down. The management must be made to realise that the cost of attacking us is far greater than ANY savings they may realise. It is time the AOA stopped treating this management with respect and patience. The management are stalling for time....and time is our enemy. Time for courage, resolve and determination to end this madness....once and for all. OCD

Well said OCD. Isn't it by now obvious that this management has NOTHING BUT CONTEMPT for it's aircrew? How much more evidence do we need to prove that the ONLY thing left to us is to embark on a campaign of MAJOR industrial action. This management is determined to keep pushing and pushing, with the hope that we are too weak to react. Well, I for one am not too weak, and am ready to take a stand for what I KNOW I AM WORTH. How about the rest of you.....?

Squak7700......just a word of advice mate. You will be MOST unwelcome in this company by the present aircrew. This deal is designed to undermine our careers, and we will NOT take kindly to those who take employment on such terms. Fifteen hours in a -400 across the Pacific is a mighty uncomfortable place to be when the other 3 crew members are burning with resentment. Stay away......you have your warning.

Ok chaps, What the hell does it take to get this aircrew body upset? If this does not do it then you all deserve the outcome. Rise up now! and keep the pressure on management. These c@nts are determined to hire whoever will do the job for the least money. A scale, B scale, ASL, and now
D SCALE!! Safety be damned. Does this matter to anyone besides those of us that post often? I want to hear from you!

Higher level managers at CX invariably use the airline as a mere stepping-stone for promotion within the Swire system. As a result they make short-term decisions which make them look good even if these decisions are detrimental to the company as a whole over the longer term.

Aircrew on the other hand will invariably stay with our airline for decades and have a far longer-term perspective of what is beneficial to the health of the airline - if at times a little unrealistic.

It is of course easy to make silly comments like GreatWay To Fly "The best part of this is that the pilot body in CX itself....looking after their self interest" but these are invariably created by jealousy, myopia or a combination of both.

A decision to employ 'cheap foreign labour' is difficult to criticise without drawing howls of indignation based on political correctness and claims of attitudes of colonial superiority.

However it MUST be said that this exercise of attempting to employ aircrew external to the standard mechanism of recruiting younger pilots, training them within our culture of the CX system and allowing them to acquire skill and knowledge over time is pure folly.

It is a typical short-term, knee-jerk reaction to a problem which our management has brought on itself. Combined with the significant cultural anomalies which (according to Flt International research) are THE most significant factor in Human Factors related accidents today, Cathay has created a potential minefield.

By bypassing the accepted means of pilot recruitment and experience acquisition CX is now lowering its standards. With lower standards the potential for grave problems increases. Should those problems directly or indirectly cause a 'hull-loss' then who should be to blame? Probably not the manager who made the decision as he will have been promoted elsewhere as a result his short-term managerial genius.

This argument will no doubt be dismissed as scaremongering by some but I would like anybody to show where it is flawed.

So to the CX managers responsible for such short-term sillyness, could I suggest that flight operations can not be run the same way as bottling plants ot property. As laughable as it may be, there ARE things which pilots know about and you guys don't and I believe this decision is one of them.

Perhaps you should look a little more thoroughly at the ramifications of your decisions before you proceed further.

Just a thought.

The situation is indeed a very grave one. The Flight Ops are a complete shambles and in a few days will be pushed over the edge of 'firefighting' and into chaos.
We must get our PR right here because otherwise the ensuing nightmare for the passengers will be blamed on the 'greedy aircrew'.
How about the AOA issuing a press release stating that things are 'at breaking point' and poor morale is caused by 'managements continuing attack on aircrew conditions despite making record profits'.
All this BEFORE the end of the month to negate what CX will say when their operation finally grinds to a halt.
DO IT NOW.............
Finally WHERE IS THE CAD in all of this??
Quite agree with OCD's comments about C+T. You've trained your replacements boys. Keep taking the pay and stuff everyone else eh??
Nice one.

If this plan goes through CX will become another MAS, a basket case airline run by cronies. CX management must be following the "Dilbert Principle"!

Is it my imagination or did i just read, less than 2 weeks, a letter to crew from NR stating that 'at least CX will no longer hire direct entry F/O's onto the freighter'???? Does this guy have ANY idea what the flight ops. dept staff(which he co-manages)are up to?..or is it 'situation normal tell the troops anything and they'll believe it'...duh!

I think CX intend to fund their 'war campaign' with the other 3 months profit share they owe everyone!!!!

Has anyone else seen this information in print, or had confirmation from our loving staff department ?

Called the AOA. It's for real! Check-out RKB's letter on the AOA web site.

ASL B scales? What must "The real ASL" make of this.

[This message has been edited by Checkmate (edited 29 March 2001).]

Disgusting!

Remember 6 years or so ago when a certain person said "Cosap 94 was NOT the thin edge of the wedge". Yeah right. Now that was a good one. It sure turned out to be a hell of a lot bigger wedge than I imagined.

[This message has been edited by fossil fuel (edited 28 March 2001).]

Checkmate

Dunno Mate. Haven't heard anything more than whats posted on here. Gawd only knows who they would get to train them if it were to happen-CXF overstretched training wise on both fleets as it is. Once again divide and rule seems to rule OK?
We don't (of course) have access to your AOA website so don't know what the letter alludes to - can U indicate as there would seem to be an area of mutual interest here?

Hope UR feeling fit and well for the month of April. Box of choccies on way if not!

Fr8t M8te

This has nothing to do with ASL whatsoever. NR stated that he would not be recruiting any more ASL crew or 'go down that route'.

These guys will be recruited by CX!

They will be employed by VETA on a basing!

They will get 15.5% provident fund!

They will get to HKG on the PAX fleet after 3 years!

The AOA must put a stop to this right now.

------------------

Could this by any chance have anything to do with an idea the company was kicking around a few years ago, about having remote based A300, B767/B757 freighters feeding SE Asia into Hong Kong?

That's when they were so careful to stipulate twin-isle widebody when we had the big dust-up over scope clauses.

Hmmmmm! I smell a fat rat.

Squak7700. Just a quick question for you.

What was the first date that you read this ad. in your local paper please?

Thank-you.

I must say that the KUL F/O deal almost makes ASL palatable!....my how our standards fall!

Okay, I read KB's letter on the AOA web site.
I don't totally understand the value of recruiting F/O's in KUL for flight time limitation reasons. Who will they fly with? Don't they need to have a Captain?

So, the bigger question is where will the Captains come from? Will they post a KUL Captain vacancy for bid and then when no one bids it recruit direct-entry KUL Captains?

And, the final question is that if the Freighter pay scales (just approved) are negotiated, then the KUL payscales will have to be negotiated and approved by the AOA won't they? I don't see the AOA agreeing to payscales lower than the current Freighter scales


Remain Calm - but be prepared to ACT!

Guys, I can confirm the offending ad was printed on the 24th March in a local english daily.

I must state that it's causing a lot of stir here among the local fraternity, but let me just quote the juicy bits from the ad :

"DIRECT ENTRY F/O FREIGHTER FLEET BASED IN KUALA LUMPUR MALAYSIA

Successful applicants will initially be based in KUL to operate CX freighter 744 & will receive on year one RM163,848.00 salary per annum.Includes concessionary travel & medical benefits.RIGHT OF ABODE, IMMIGRATION & TAX AFFAIRS ARE THE SOLE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE OFFICER.

Future oppurtunities will exist for successful candidates after 3 years in KUL to upgrade to pax fleet based in HKG & receive a full expat pax fleet F/O package (year 4 F/O eff. 01/07/01 810,780.00 per annum).

All F/O applicants must meet the following requirements:

1)ICAO ATPL

2)A min time of 1000 hours in ONE of the following categories:
a)Airline Jet Transport
b)Command Turbo Prop (MAUW more than 20,000 kgs)
c)Command Corporate Jet
d)High Performance Military Jet
e)Military Flying Instructor (fixed wing)

Unquote.

While not adding salt to our brethren's wound in HKG, I have to say that the renumeration offered is nearly on par (minus a few thousand ringgits & the perks) with MAS starting widebody commander.This is very enticing for the junior F/O's & F50 commanders in MAS as they are quite down the seniority file.Not to mention the ex Air Force, G/A guys plus the local airlines (Pelangi, Air Asia & Berjaya).

Couldn't imagine CX taking non locals as the current labour law prevents them from taking expats if the position could be filled by qualified locals.The mandatory Employee Provident Fund (EPF) is very generous too with a min of nearly 22% goes to the fund & the employee only forks out 9% to 12% of their basic pay towards EPF.Tax here is 29% max (which btw is the rate paid if your annual income exceeds RM100,000.00).

Again would appreciate some feedbacks for us.It's nice to know what we're actually worth in the open market.Hmmmmm, I wonder if MAS will now pay more to keep us in?

Safe Flying All,

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif
PILOST

Here's a question.

Did the (alleged) advert come out before the AOA were informed or after?

It occurred to a few of us last night that ASL C&T's may be 'directed' to train them if our guys won't. My understanding is that they (ASL C&T's)may have no voice in the matter due to the way their contract is written. Anyone thought that one through? Is there now common ground to try and establish a conduit to them to offer them advice/assistance?

After but not by long. The letter sent to the A.O.A is dated 21.03.2001!

The ad is real guys.Just a question though.What's the main objection for the KUL based F/O's?Is it industrial or something else?

Please enlighten us here in the "Thirld World".

Thanks.

Safe Flying
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif
PILOST

it was next to the ad: " FOR SALE: one large vat of baseball bat grease. Bracing harness and gerbil not included...."

Pilost...well, that really says it all now doesn't it. They are hiring pilots for our jobs at 1/3 the money because that is a decent wage in KUL....that's the problem! If MAS can find someone to work for less than you does that make it alright to subvert your conditions? BOHICA-
Bend Over, Here It Comes Again.

YES, it is a decent wage here in KUL. And I understand the implications for Cathay Crews unhappy about the situation. Hopefully it will be resolved through the Union or other reasonable action. But I don't think you should make it the problem of honest pilots here in Malaysia wanting to make a better career move for themselves.

mngmt mole's threats/warnings not to join just because we wouldn't be popular and the other crews would be "burning with resentment" makes THEM the problem, not the KUL crew. Grow up.

This is not the 'war on drugs' or endangered animals where it is the demand or buying that has to stop first instead of the problem being the people supplying the 'bad thing'. Wrong end! It's not the fault or problem of KUL crews wanting to respond to the ad and the conditions offered. It is your top management that you have to aim the peanuts at, not the Malaysian pilots.

Remember it's all how you look at it. And if all pilots here in Malaysia had the benefit of your better lifestyle and conditions, then perhaps it would be a different story to what conditions would be acceptable.

My sentiments exactly QNH1013.Please don't look down upon us if we respond to their offer.The cost of living here is much, much more less than in HKG.

What makes me wonder is with a union as strong as yours, don't you have anything in your contract that forbids pilots to be employed at less pay than their contemporaries (read that as locals)?We do, & to back it up our labour law protects us too (& this in a Third World!).

What is ironic here is when CX offered the positon of F/O's & S/O's about 10 years ago, most of the Asians were turned away (this is a FACT) with the excuse that us Third World pilots have doubtful capabilities & of inferior quality but now, they are clamouring for us coz we're cheap labour?If that is the case then market forces here will determine if their ads for those vacancies will be answered.

Like I said earlier, please do not condemn us as we are just enquiring about the prospect of working with an outfit like CX.If we're jumping from the frying pan into the fire, then, at the very least, let us know.

A word of consolation for you guys.The news around town at this moment is that your union is liasing with their IFALPA counterpart here.Most probably a better line of action might be taken after hearing from them.

Till then we do hope to hear more inputs from our friends in the fragrant harbour forum.

Safe Flying.
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif
PILOST

Aim the peanuts at the Top Management ??? MMmm

Apparently that doesn't work !!!!

[This message has been edited by HUSTLER (edited 04 April 2001).]

Fair enough on some of your comments Gents...you can understand the emotion on this one. Just stay away from CX and tell others the same. Taking this job is taking OUR jobs. The AOA is/will communicate that to your association. (and be forewarned that labour law does not protect you as well in HK)

Pilost... Yes living in your home KUL is most definitly "much, much, more less" So which one is it? More or less?

To the guys in KUL, you're not responsible for the folly of our management. It is our responsibility to put an end to this and I believe that we will, so don't count on a job with cx.

To the cx guys, if we start slinging mud at the boys from KUL then I guess we'll have to do the same to all the B scale etc etc. You can't expect the people who are looking for jobs to fix OUR PROBLEM that has existed long before they came along. WE need to stand up and stop this rot starting with solidarity from seniority number 1 and working right down to the bottom.

TAKSI, You are a joke,joke,joke!

The reason why CX continues to degrade COS is because people like yourself just TALK, but never produce any action! You are a "gunna do this, gunna do that".
The reason why your A scale continues to be attacked is because "you are gunna do nothing".
But hey, you might aswell keep talking about doing something. You have been doing it since when?????????????????
1993!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ess Jay, I'm sorry to say that you are quite right about the fact that the reason our COS has continued to deteriorate is because we haven't done anything about it.

As a result we continue to have the same problem. CX continues to find new ways of improving their profits at the expense of our COS. (I don't suppose that it would be too much of a stretch to say that they would like to see all of us on local terms, that would still be subject to change at the sole discretion of the company.) This thread is about employing pilots on local conditions based in KUL, which is yet another example of cx attempting to reduce our COS by eroding it from the bottom...exactly as they did with B scales. They got away with B scales so why not try it again?

My point with my earlier post is that there are more and less effective ways of dealing with this problem. To tell all of the pilots in the world, who might think of taking a job with cx on reduced conditions, that they better not erode our COS like that, seems to me to be one of the less effective ways. As far as I know that tactic has never worked in the past and I can't imagine that it will work now. It may even serve to alienate our colleagues who are with us now because they took a job on a reduced COS (most of us now), which obviously wasn't reduced to them or they wouldn't have taken the job. Right now we need everybody to stick together so I think that any idea that causes us to splinter apart is a bad idea.

Right now we have 3 options:

1)Do nothing and wait for an ever continuing erosion of our COS.

2)Leave cx and fix the problem for ourselves,or

3)Stand up as a unified group and actually do something about the problem.

You Decide, but in any case placing the responsibility for our problems on the shoulders of the boys from KUL is a copout.

cheers

thepenguin,

You say, "The AOA is/will communicate that to your Association."

This would indicate the AOA holds the view that the establishment of a 744F base in KUL, for DE F/Os only, somehow breaches our "contracts". Do you know how the AOA has come to this conclusion?