[This message has been edited by ess jay (edited 07 April 2001).]

I can see a lot of fair skin guys are turning green.It is sad that this hollier than thou attitude still prevails. How long do u guys expect to keep colonised the so called third world countries,earn the big bucks and keep the locals high and dry? Eternity? I can see the same criterias applied in the recruitment,nothing less and I really fail to see how that will make us a lesser lots.Cx is a bussiness body,it owes to the share holders in maximising profit and at the same time not to compromise on safety and standards. Flight crew qualifications here are tailored to CAA standard.DCA is audited and sensored by CAA and FAA. Meanwhile I believe many of the local respondents to the ad will be reasonably qualified and experiened way above the requirement,which in turn will contribute to safer flight operations.So guys,do not belittle others while trying to keep your cosy and high paying job.

ess jay,

I have responded to your posts over on the mideast and african forums. I tried to be helpful, but upon reflection, based entirely on your posts I read on those 2 forums, I thought I'd look up all of your posts so I could make an informative decision about what I'm about to say.

So, wan*er, my question to you, referencing the post you made above, is: "How do you know it hurts when you take it up there when you bend over?"

You must like it and just be too ashamed to say....

I pity the sister in law having to be related to you.

PS-As this is my first visit to this forum, I apologize for jumping in and slagging one of yours, but I just thought someone needs to...I'll now retire back to the forums I'm familiar with...

[This message has been edited by DownIn3Green (edited 07 April 2001).]

Triple Gem,

I think you miss the point.
Its nothing to do with the colour of your skin or origin.
Do you remember back when MAS employed direct entry expats for F/O & Command slots?
Did you like it, I dont think so. We just want to protect our current body of pilots and try to protect our already pathetic seniority system.
If you want to join Cathay by all means apply like the rest of did, ie; start at the bottom of the list, plenty of asian nationals have and have been successful!!!

Triple Gem... I'd have to agree with hustler!

Your saying we are trying to protect "our cosy and high paying jobs" for ourselves is absolutely incorrect!! What we are trying to do is stop the aircrew body's conditions of service and salary being erroded from the bottom up.

You should be happy that we are trying to stop the erossion of pilots conditions to the point that there is no longer a future in the industry for our children!

Unfortunately you think that by accepting a job on reduced conditions is a good thing for all.

The point you're missing is that if we can stop the rot, the job will still be here for you and your collegues but on proper industry standard conditions of service and renumeration.

indeepsht,
I do understand where you are coming from and it's a fair point. Would you say other Cathay Cargo bases elsewhere are offereing pilots similar degraded conditions that you are not happy about, or is it just a problem with the KUL conditions? I have been interested in the direct entry Cargo F/O position and also the S/O position on the Cathay passenger fleet and of course like everyone else would want the very best of future opportunities for myself, family etc.

Unfortunately this news will not stop the flood of applications from KUL. But hopefully for all you guys and gals at Cathay, things will improve for the benefit of all and also for the potential future of Cargo based and mainline crews.

Regards.

Talk about resistance, boy, some people have it real good… and yet they still don't know it. Did anyone ever wonder why us third world pilots are willing to work for what Cathay are paying? Simple, we get to be at home, and earn more than we can hope to earn in our country… we're not spoilt brats, we don't ask for more than we think we deserve. Our flag carrier flies planes as well as any airline you can name. I don't think we are inferior, less competent or less qualified than anyone currently flying at the moment. Our small third world country has only one flying school, which was set up along the lines of a U.K. training establishment, we sit the U.K. C.A.A. exams, and have a complete training syllabus according to CAP 54. Our respective airlines in Malaysia also comply to CAP 371 and most of the other U.K. publications. Most the pilots in Malaysia happened to be trained overseas, usually in Australia or U.K. as these are the only 2 countries approved by the local authority for overseas training. Anyway, that's sidetracking, I feel as incompetent as the next guy, probably as incompetent and unqualified as whoever wrote the "resistance" article to start with, no doubt I do come from a third world country, I learnt my flying in Malaysia, subsequently went to U.K. and obtained my U.K. C.A.A. ATPL, so that goes along with my incompetence as I now hold a U.K. ATPL, a Malaysian ATPL and an American (F.A.A.) ATP… all of which were obtained without any exemptions. If for any reason I happen to be more qualified (or more incompetent) than my fellow third worlders, it's not by much, as I would say more than 80% of the pilots here hold licences of at least 2 countries, the second usually being Australia or Britain. We are not devaluing any one or any company (maybe the writer seems insecure that his job is at risk from inferior and less qualified pilots?), infact we would be an asset, spoiling the market? No such thing, if Cathay choose to employ pilots who are willing to work for less, well, so be it, As for the standards, well, they're set by Cathay Management, so there's no point yelling at us, it's your management you should be yelling at. Tell me, friend, if you got offered a job paying more than you earn now, wouldn't you go? Cathay are offering just that, more than we can earn here. Who knows it may even raise the "lower standards" we allegedly practice. Cathay isn't a charity organization, it's a business just like any other, and it's people who write derogatory articles against the less fortunate that spoil things. Whoever you are, the author of the resistance… I have one question for you… .. why aren't you in your home country flying??? Too incompetent yourself?

Well then....

Enjoy your 8 to 10 day off each month with your family! Because that's all your ever going to see!

Your right Cathay isn't a charity there a business and a very profitable one at that.

Ever wonder why?

BTW if you enjoy working from your home your joining the wrong outfit you'll be DTing all over the place to pick up your flights for ZERO credit!!

Enjoy!

I find the Malaysian responses very logical and fair. However, as it was with B scales, if nobody accepts the terms of offer, it will never happen; but that is a pipedream and you know it.

[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Towers (edited 08 April 2001).]

A number of recent responses have been edited or deleted due to their juvenile and abusive content.

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Regards from the Towers
[email protected]

Apuonbus...what's your point. You would be accepting d-scale conditions and undermining our jobs. Should I like that?

Good comments from all sides at times.

It worries me, reading some lines written here, that we continue to learn nothing from our recent history. It's not a problem having a pilot wanting to improve his or her lot by applying for a better job than the one they already have. What is the problem is that we as CX pilots seem willing to blame them for coming and not management for providing D-scales etc.

We have let the company get away with COS94, B/C-scales, S/O COS, ASL and more. Surely it's time to say enough. Direct your anger at our managers and not our fellow professionals. Have your say at the EGM on the 19th of April. If we need more pilots for our operation (and we DO) we want them as first class citizens on our COS and not as poor second class wanabee's.

Just a thought.

Have to agree with QNH1013, that the flood of applications will not stop from KUL as CX is tapping a niche workforce which are available with their requirements.The good thing that will definitely come out of this will be that the present employers here have to review our pay to keep up with CX's offer.Or suffer a massive exodus......(again).

My hopes & prayers to our fellow professionals on their upcoming EGM.Maybe with their unity & resolute desire to improve their working conditions will we in KUL get the same working conditions as them.Pitting us pilots together will only serve the management's ulitmate aim, to divide & conquer, which is the colonial powers trademark in ruling their colonies.Ironic isn't it?

Safe Flying.
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif
PILOST

Dear QNH1013 and comrades. Reading your comments i take it you have no objection then to some 3rd party crews(on lower slaries than yourselves)making an en-masse application for.. say... direct entry command positions in MAS purely because your management knows they are cheaper labour? The arguement that we are all 'just trying to better our conditions' may apply to you but at what cost to the pilots here who have already done their time and have had upgrades or basings opportunities and salaries trashed?...for the last 5 years! Good luck in your flying career but you won't get any CX troops onside...we're still speechless that 'they' are trying this when we are on the brink of industrial collapse..talk about lousy timing. Perhaps if they employ enough of you guys then they could afford to continue running the airline during the next breakdown in talks. If that's the game plan i would consider most carefully the merits of being caught in the middle!

Everybody knows what we, in this industry call a pilot willing to join a company during a strike. Don't we?

Now what do we call a pilot willing to join on reduced conditions during a period of "industrial action"? (The companies quote not mine, ours, or the A.O.A's)

Seems to me that the two situations are not that different! Or are they?

Point taken BlunderBus & indeepsht.I would love to see someone coming to MAS with our less than meagre pay! :rolleyes:

But seriously, it's still big money for some of the guys here.You must remember that the criteria that they set might tempt the GA & ex Air Force guys more than the MAS pilots.

I wouldn't like to be in a position where I will earn the wrath of my co workers, but then again some people would just look the other way when blinded by money.As proven by the events in OZ some years ago.

My personal hope is that you guys will see this through & indirectly benefit us here in KUL.

Safe Flying.
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif
PILOST

The boys that came to OZ to fill the void left by us are still not a well liked or respected bunch!

People have very long memories!!

An interesting comparison can be made between the proposed KUL 744F salary of US$43,200 and the year 1 Syd Freighter salary of US$44,200.

Clearly this extra $1000 is valuable for it prevents your "colleagues" like Tom Tipper from describing you as "cheap foreign labour" or thepenguin warning that you are, "d-scales and undermining our jobs" or Fatbastard from exhorting, "my how our standards fall".

Every Syd 200F FO must grateful to Santa Ron for the extra grand, otherwise indeepsht will be justified in referring to you as a scab (in the politest of ways) and some very brave, but anonymous, hero will warn you that, "Fifteen hours in a -400...is a mighty uncomfortable place.. stay away.."

I remain unconvinced that had the company set up a 744F base in Syd on the same pay as the KUL base, this would have been an issue attracting such venom. I therefore wonder what the real issue here is?

Dear Liam, I doubt you wonder all that much as I am quite sure you know exactly what the issue is. This used to be a career airline, it ceased to be such around 1993/94 when B scales/ASL appeared. Unfortunately it takes rather a long time for the message to get through to everyone. Some still have vain hopes that they work for a career airline, get real guys we work for a third world outfit that will hire at the cheapest rates they can get away with. How do they get away with it? Because they can! Imagine UA/AA/BA/LH/DL/NW/AF etc trying to recruit in KUL or DEL or CMB or BOM or BAH or DXB (dare I say AUS?) etc. Of course they cannot because they are first world carriers based in countries with labour and immigration laws. Hong Kong protects business interests and that is all. There is nothing we can do about this new development. Live with it or leave for a job somewhere else where you don't neeed to worry about your job being sold to the lowest bidder. If the CEO can fire a Captain on the spot for being unwise in the company bar what hope is there for the rest of us. I give up!

Well said Mole!