Ex KA captains being offered JFO position
 

Speechless to CX management
soon will see FOs teaching captains flying the neo

You expected direct commands for everyone? Would never have happened. Only way to get DEC is to go to UO but even then I cannot see that going down all that well.

A number of ex ka A320 skippers were in their early to mid 30s. 10years in CX, to make an early command on the 320, after doing some long haul in between. Still under 45 . Tell that to the Americans.

KA used to take on FOs in their early 50s , with heaps of command airline time . Thats seniority. It can be a bummer when it works against you.

However, Its all rather better than being unemployed and unrated.

No seniority
 

There is no more seniority. Some of them won’t be FO for very long, they will be needed in the LHS.

It’s very simple.
Which position currently pays more, CX FO or KA Capt?
Also depends on perspective. Are they lucky to have a job, or unlucky to have lost one?
Do I consider myself lucky to have left last year - most certainly!

The KA fallout has however had unfortunate collateral damage. The scurrilous lobbying by many of the ex KA guys of local Legco members and politicians, could well be the reason why many much longer serving CX staff on bases, which are closed/closing, who were
never given work visas, are now unable to continue flying in HK, unless granted a visa. How likely that is, can be anyone’s guess.

Imagine how galling that is when a based 13/14 yr cx crew, who joined with significant previous and/or military time, is now effectively displaced by a spotty local who spent 1-2 yrs with KA.
All somewhat ironic.

Therefore any complaints from exKA crew who are being given the option of a job, are likely to fall on deaf ears, although personally, I wish them well.

Cathay advertised FO and SO positions. Who expected Cathay to offer direct entry commands?

Fly747

Indeed, some won’t be FO very long since they will not make it through the training.

Still a large number of OZ, Canadian and Brits in the C&T department who have friends on bases that have been kicked out to make room for the KA bunch that went crying in court.
If i was a new joiner now, i would be very worried about the upcoming check and training

I don’t think so BB, they will be trained by and well known to the 7 x DECs from KA that are running the Neo fleet.

BalloonBuster

Don’t forget to bring this over to EK and treat the princes like that.
Or you get yourself and your kind famous and never get a job.

Some really bitter and twisted comments above.
Thats why, in Aviation, its always, always, good to remember: What Goes Around, Comes Around.
Don’t upset people on your way up, as you might have to deal with them on your way down…
I wish all the best to all who will have a job, enjoy it with dignity.

Is this correct? Based Pilots being sacked as they hire externally?

Some keen First Officers, know, and can teach, the stuff that needs to be taught', better than established Captains

All very predictable sadly. No more seniority, DEC while long term cx guys laid off.

All those who turned the AOA into a toothless tiger over the last 25 years need to hang their heads in shame.

doublelift

If First officer knows more about the operation of the type, what is wrong about that during the training process?

Bueno Hombre

You know it, your like minded buddies know it but somehow the training department don't know it, funny that.

Bueno Hombre

Maybe there's nothing wrong? Fresh eyes always helped. New perspective could make things better?

Sorry, but it's not our fault that you bet on the wrong horse. As many KA crew have said, often and loudly, it was very good while it lasted. And now that it's gone, you expect to just rock up at cx and take a command slot away from someone who's worked their way up over 10+ years? You're already taking an FO slot away from some 5+ year SO! Should be thankful you're not joining as an SO at the bottom of the seniority list, like most of us did!
And sorry to break it to all you "skygods", but the 320 is just another commercial jet... Not some magical new invention that's gonna have us all scratching our heads wondering how to operate.

Don't upset ??
 

Angel 8

You obviously do not know what you're talking about.. Upsetting people on the way "up" at CX is EXACTLY why the Swire Princelings promote them.. Most don't have the stomach for it but the ones there from the 3rd floor & up today and all those before them who left with their big bonus cheques are masters of the art !

That's true. the 320 is easy to operate, but marginally harder than the 330. What is more difficult is the high threat short haul environment in the PRC in which these aircraft will mostly operate and which CX don't have a great deal of experience. I suspect the CX management realize the best way to prevent racking up more demerit points and getting the airline banned from the PRC is to leave it to the experts..

Popcorn time!

Correct Dan. De-merit points are the key.

FlightoftheNavigator

Well done for getting a seniority clause in the contract you signed back in November 2020. Stops CX taking advantage of the DEC option.

The cadre of ex-KA A320 pilots in CX presided over a system that sustained a 100% command failure rate on the A320. This left plenty of experienced KA pilots scratching their heads. Granted, the TRG Dept changed direction significantly and many of those same guys responsible for the positive outcomes. However, now you have to add CX's woeful SOPs and management into the mix and the A320 operation becomes needlessly stressful in all the wrong areas. Perhaps this goes someways in explaining CX's poor record in China?

Dan Winterland

China is more of a frustrating place to fly rather than a 'high threat' environment. It's the only place in the world I've flown where you are under radar control a 100% of the time.

Dan Winterland

Asking experts for help but not paying for the expert money. If I was those KA guys, you pay me FO money I would just do an FO jobs, sat there and watching Captains **** up.

thats a very dangerous attitude to have.

I am inclined towards keeping it safe, but not really helping much. Some demerit points and a ban from China would suit me fine. It is not as though I give a :mad: about the company, they have completely pissed away any good will.

Rather not walk away from a cocked up Mainland expedition with a warning letter. If anyone is going in thinking they can sit back and watch a Captain screw something up they won't have a long career with CX.

Or any other airline. I'm sure the majority of ex KA people will have great attitudes and be good guys & gals sadly the few making the comments here are tarnishing the image of the group.

And there you have it!
Again a massive own goal by CX.
Ex KA drivers thinking they are entitled to jobs in an airline they never worked for.
Just reading the comments above you can already see the massive CRM problems on the horizon.
”just do the FO job”
maybe that was the case in KA but in CX you expected to behave like a future captain in any seat.
Also had to laugh about the expert comment, China nowadays is just another place we fly to. Do as your told unless you don’t like it.
Demerit point have mostly been “awarded” on long haul flights, where sadly crew were too lazy to look at the map where an FIR starts or stops.
This is a training and experience issue and is resolved for a while.
I do hope that the majority of Ex KA bus drivers have the same mentality as the EX KA freighter drivers we have since 2008 because they are a pleasure to work with and get on with it, regardless the seat they are in.

LongTimeInCX

I can imagine it being just as galling as the thought of a 23/24 yr KA crew (who has had Hong Kong as their home for decades), who joined with significant previous and/or military time, now effectively being replaced by a spotty iCadet from Oz or SA or the UK, who spent 1-2 yrs with CX on work visa, flying the KA NEOs and 330s to all the former KA destinations.
The irony is in the eye of the beholder.

Except they’re flying CX aircraft on routes that CX deploy them on. KA don’t have any, because they don’t exist. There’s always a vacuum to fill when an airline closes.

I feel for the ex-KA guys, but the sense of entitlement in thinking they should stroll into a new airline at the position they enjoyed at their now defunct employer beggars belief.

Dingleberry,

Add another except...

Except it isn't really a new airline or a defunct employer per se, is it? We were effectively one airline.
Dragon was Cathay.
Cathay made sure of telling us that all the time on "the Hub" - about all our new aircraft (except they were always green in color), about all our new routes (except they were flown by green airplanes) and all about our People directors (except nobody knew who they were) and our Group Safety Department (that nobody knew where was located).
We never wanted to be "on the Hub", to have Cathay smeared all over the fuselage, to "go beyond" and be "part of the team" - while we were clearly NOT really part of the team (not even in the crew room as it turns out, interpreting a lot of attitudes on this forum)!

So, if we leave it at the assumption that CX now miraculously has come up with their own ideas for new routes and picked up some cheap airframes that a "defunct" airline has left behind;
Fair enough if Dragon was a loss making airline, heading for bankruptcy.
It would close down because it was effectively "defunct" as you call it. Cathay could pick up the pieces. Fine by me. We could have seen the writing on the wall.
But that was not really the case either, was it?
Dragon was the money maker, full of the most loyal employees of the group, the airline's gold mine, and oh yes, dare I say it, was getting the highest IOSA audit results repeatedly.

So, effectively it was a company take-over.
In the real world, this is dealt with in accordance with a civilised suit of laws, full of respect and rights for the employees who have built this nest egg up over the years.

So yes, there is ABSOLUTELY a sense of entitlement. But NO rights or respect.

For a moment, please consider that HKE would take over CX next month: all long haul flown by HKE pilots, taking all the routes and the aircraft. All flown by South Americans on work visas with 3-4 years of seniority.
Would you not feel a sense of entitlement to follow your planes and routes to the group airline (effectively still Cathay) taking over your company?

That a few local (as in PR holding or passport holding locals) would join Cathay as a brand new employee on a piss poor salary, starting from scratch on the same airplane and routes they have flown for 10 years for the same airline, only beggars belief in one respect: That I personally wonder why on earth anybody would want to work for Cathay.

Cathay was, is and always will be toxic!

I wouldn't expect many to join for the same reason, stop your worries and look for an exit strategy yourself.

In all cases, I am a firm believer that there are no real positions available - clearly for me, this is only done to show the immigration department that they are actively recruiting and hence need to extent the work visas.

What they wrote on the Hub is irrelevant. KA was deliberately kept separate. It was a different entity and AOC. It has now closed.

I appreciate that in reality it was an in-house feeder, but that doesn’t matter. It was kept aside and has been closed.

Again, I feel for the KA crews. Out of interest, how would you merge two lists when one involves commands after a year versus one that has 12-13 year FOs waiting for their shot?

Surely you appreciate why CX guys would have feelings along that topic.

Personally, I would like to see the KA guys offered positions before externals; and I would gladly accept rank based on longevity. I think that’s fair. We chose CX and you chose KA.

to the pillocks that think I’ll struggle flying KA routes - get over yourselves. It’s a plane, and a country that is fundamentally easy to fly in. You do as you’re told unless you can’t. Nothing more. None of my friends who flew in China for the first time as contract skippers had any issues. 2 wings, some engines etc.

doublelift

I sincerely hope that you are not a professional pilot.
Your proposed behavior leaves me speechless.
You sound more like a frequent traveler than an expert to me.

Dingleberry Handpump

Stone Temple Pilot would most likely be right if this had happened in “the West”.

KA had the same owners. Now CX uses KA airplanes to fly KA routes. 2 AOC’s would not have meant much. KLM and Cityhopper have two different AOC’s for example. And there are many more examples. This is a huge FU to all KA personnel involved!

Many of those KA wide bodies were ex CX... Thank god they scrapped HLJ.

I do note that the have made CX and UO very seperate right now. The employee of UO don't even have CX staff travel, they are forced to pay higher fares via MyID. Maybe learning from mistakes incase anyone tries to claim they deserve a job at CX just because they are owned by the same group.

doublelift

I must have blinked, when did KA operate the NEO ?

SaulGoodman

Cityhopper crew are on the same MSL as KLM.

Anyhow, the decision has been made, so folks need to get on with life. It doesn’t matter what you or I think..

swh

they didn’t. However, most were 320/321 type rated… and most narrow body Ka pilots had completed all the Neo differences training.

I’m sure it’ll be a massive struggle for mere 350/330 pilots. After all, there was a massive failure rate for the hundreds of 777 guys who crossed over to Airbus over the last 3.5 years.

Oh, wait…