Gnadenburg

There is a lot of inaccurate information being posted on this thread to make CX pilots seem inept or incompetent, for example you stated earlier that CX does not fly visual approaches, they are flown daily on everything from the A330 to 747. I have had a KA jump seat CN with a J class FOC that had been in the company less than a year, total time around 6000 hrs, the A320 was the only aircraft they had flown since flight school, never flown in Asia before. During the flight he made several insensitive comments about his remuneration and benefits which my 10+ year local SFO was not too pleased about. The hyperbole over many threads by a few ex-KA pilots is dong the majority a vast disservice. The KA guys I knew would never say that sort of thing to my face, we had mutual respect for each others job.

Alistair

Have a look further up in the thread, I replied to dualbleedfauls post saying they operated 150 flights to the PRC a year (i.e 300 sectors), "How any KA pilot could have done 150 PRC trips a year is beyond me, two months of leave and all those other days off." 80ish flights a years like you were saying was very normal, that is only an average of 2 a week. As you have demonstrated around 1/3 of your flights were outside the PRC.

Current advertised contact rates for A320 captains in the PRC are around US$4000 per month, pre-COVID it is was up around US$20,000. To set the bar so low they must be getting takers, US$4000 is better than zero.

swh,

I believe you are referring to the above post, he never said 150 trips, he said ‘in that environment 150 times…’. Perhaps check your English level before getting so worked up about something you very clearly know nothing about. Secondly, any pilot that passed the command training at Ka was worthy of the left seat, that I can assure you.

This is all becoming a little petty. As an ex KA fellow I implore my ex colleagues to stop defending what we did. We all know what was involved in our day to day operation and there’s no point trying to convince those that don’t want to hear it otherwise. Just smile and walk away. It’s perfectly acceptable to chuckle as you wander off knowing the reality of PRC flying will dawn on those above in due course.

WT great post !

As someone who flies for 'green' on a fleet that regularly flies to the dreaded PRC, I wholeheartedly agree with WT.

And the rest of you children stop the bickering.

One wonders how those thousands of former expat pilots who lived and flew solely in the PRC ever managed to exist. Must have been super men.One can’t even begin to imagine the privations of not having a DB bubble to strut around in.

Get a grip, it’s just another job. There are better place and there are worse, far worse,

I like data so I just had a quick look in my logbook, PRC sectors last few years...

2015 147
2016 164
2017 174
2018 156
2019 131

Dangerous? Not particularly. Difficult? Again, no especially once you've done it a few times, I got LHS after 18 months with no prior Airbus, command or Asia experience.
But it was UTTERLY exhausting. Low level cruise noise, delays, flying nights, earlies, lates, diverting and having to stay on the jet for another 6 hours at the whim of officials, 180 kts with 50nm to go, 60 min turnarounds in HKG with an aircraft change, ATC saying go slow, go fast, go away, cannot divert to nominated alternate, do an orbit in cruise, I could go on. Don't miss it a bit. You lot are welcome to do it and find out for yourselves, maybe its all fine now...

lucille

Agreed. Give me India any day. At least they’re not deliberately obstructive. Or even the Dark Continent. China. Thankfully I’ll never see it again. Not even from 9600 M rate of descent 3000 or more.

lucille

Again, the point has been lost.

However, I did note on social media a CX Captain complaining of the new normal. A turn-around to XMN taking 12-15 hours. Geez you haven't even started going there on the NEO's and the bitching has started!

Please keep the PRC reports coming in on Instagram folks.

777 captains started training on the Neo this week at the rate of two a week. Many are getting the rating as part of their exit strategy; they won’t be doing that many China sectors before they leave.

Exit strategy? Lol. Is that the same exit strategy that has apparently been in the process for years? The one that will only ever eventuate once they reach retirement age.
I’d love to know where these hypothetical better jobs are.

That’s the exit strategy to deal with the imminent loss/reduction of housing and education benefits. They may never use an Airbus rating but at least they will have it in their back pocket.

so where has better housing/education benefits?
just curious because back home you wouldn’t get any. And it’s not like the package at EK is any better.

Maybe not now, but it will come !

They might join Wizzair on one of their fantastic eastern European bases

The smartest thing to do right now is go across to the NEO for the rating. I already have one from my days back home that I have kept current. Any extra rating should be most important to do for anyone who is returning to their own country. More chances to find employment.

As a sidenote Ryanair are hiring...

Wendell Glibb
 

Regardless Fo or Captain, most x KA guys I have spoken to say they have no real desire to return to Cx or Uo.
Such a shame.
And for those in Cx that enjoy belittling x KA guys , be careful you never know who will be doing your future interviews!

Rie

Having a type rating with no hours on type is pointless….

Not if you are already Airbus rated and have a large amount of bus time. Most European airlines accept any bus. Even FBW time on the triple would work in your favour for some airlines. Didn't a triple FO go to fly a bus in Belgium last year?

Fair enough - your point noted.

Hard work, you guys have no idea.

Try the 737-200 into PRC in the 80's. No FMS, magenta lines, map displays, GPS, RNAV approaches, TCAS, ACARS, fuel predictions, nearest airports, only two destinations with ILS but no approach lights, all other destinations with NDB only approaches to 400'agl, needed homemade timing device to configure before reaching minima, no VASI or approach lights, no piano keys or 1000" markings only an unlit "landing T", whatever that meant. ATC virtually non existent, constant frequency jammed in Mandarin or Cantonese, sometimes they just wouldn't answer at all, near misses, had a few we saw but who knows in that lousy weather. No roaming if we needed to contact the company, had to be a phone patch through HF, took forever. Best part was inbound seeing the lights on the border with HKG, could see them from 100 miles out on a good night, only viable alternate was goo-gan-zoo and they would only accept 3 or 4 diverting aircraft.

By the mid 90's we had all the good stuff and a multitude of new airports replacing the old Nanjing, Hangzhou, Chengdu, Pudong, later Goo-gan-zoo and numerous upgraded ones like Kunming and Xiamen. An absolute piece of cake by comparison although still unique and ATC remained a problem.

Out of interest I also did a check and typically 160 sectors in and out of the PRC was typical in around 1990 and how we looked forward to a Japan, Thailand or Nepal trip. In those days management guys did their fair share and didn't pick the eyes out of the roster.

Can only respect that post...

jjmclure

it was rather the other way around, calling cx inept in China basically.

I like how everyone has forgotten about the 103 CX pilots that got made redundant last October, some being locals and others on work visas. Why isn't there any talk about these guys who have been shifted by all these ex KA guys?

They were the fresh pilots. No time in the company and everyone is trying to save their own behind.

They have more time with the company than those ex KA guys. I do think the local redundant SO should be rehired before any Ex KA

What did the regulator and insurance company say about percentage of pilots and hours on type when setting-up a new fleet (albeit CCQable)?

doublelift

Makes sense that these non-resident one-stripers, laid off while on probation (?) should operate the many KA airbuses to all the KA destinations ahead of 20+ years senior guys who have clearly not contributed to the company at all in comparison.

They should all fight it out, MMA style. Winners get seats. Losers become cabin crew.

Stone Temple Pilot

They had PR, not on probation. Ask around where the handful of KA guys ended up on the CX seniority list, and rethink your comment who was senior.

Mandatory requirements were
"A Hong Kong Permanent resident
Graduated from secondary school with good passes in English language, Mathematics or Science; a degree in any discipline will also be considered provided you meet the secondary school criteria.
Physically fit and qualified for a Civil Aviation Department (HKCAD) Class 1 Medical Certificate
Able to meet our flight deck reach requirements
Achieve ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization) English Language Proficiency level 4 or above
Aged 18 years or above"

Pre-COVID more than 110 airlines competed into HKIA which makes it one of the most competitive airports in the world, have you ever stopped to think why every gate in HKIA is generic ? This notion of a "KA destination" has been incorrectly thrown around most if not all of the destinations served by KA were already on the CX licence, almost all of the destinations were approved to multiple HKG carriers. Airlines operate where they generate the greatest return on investment, KA had multiple ports on there licence for 20 plus years which have never seen a commercial airline service with HKG for example Meixian, Qiqihar, Pune, Bishkek. There is no requirement in HKG to operate a particular route for it to be on the licence, the commercial viability is another matter. The Hong Kong Express licence has almost double the destinations as KA had.

The CX Skygods swinging their weenies around and banging their fists, while their London base is about to close. What a sad, sad bunch you are.

The last bit of mongrels fighting for the scraps.

Oasis

Think your clowns started up about post #7. Stating their mates in check and training would fail ex-KA pilots. Then, soon after, the odd reference to KA pilots being skygods which usually fits the boot of legacy pilots. But anyways. More often than not, here on FH, its trans-generational abuse, with CX pilots labelling their colleagues as inept. You've been toxic for a long time. Now delusional too. Still banging on about seniority. I wouldn't be surprised if someone raises a previous scope clause right for CX pilots.

Personally, wish you all well. My best advice would be for you to realise how low you have gone. It's your only hope ( if CX survives ).

I’m really sorry you feel that way, from my perspective it seemed like Cx pilots were called inept.
I have nothing but respect for dragon pilots.

Could be lower, could be out of a job.

swh - you miss my point completely.

doublelift is talking about the small percentage of laid off - very junior - CX pilots having "more time with the company than those ex KA guys".

Through my ironic comment, I meant to be saying that the 20+ year senior KA guys have contributed far more to the company and shown decades of loyalty. To hint otherwise is a slap in the face to your ex-colleagues (anyway, at least I thought we were ex-colleagues, sharing the same crew room, same "hub", "moving beyond" together, same dream, same team, no?).
Point being that KA pilots were always told we were part of the team, part of the company - until all of a sudden we obviously weren't.

Your mentioning about the various destinations, all that I'm very well aware of, serves no point either.
Fact was that these KA routes were lining Cathay's pockets, we were part of the company and we were not in competition...hence my mentioning of KA destinations, all of which are conveniently taken over by CX together with all the aircraft, to be flown by CX own (junior) crew.

What CX seniority list by the way?
This is not about where you end up on a non-existing seniority list, but about the time you have given Cathay and the rewards you reap as a result of your long lasting loyalty.

Hard to sympathise with a bunch of miserable newbies trying to get the HKID to ban their colleagues, what a low act, why would we be surprised though.

I know many people who are part of that 103 group, and I can tell you that those guys having gone through Adelaide, left their families or had brought their families to HKG and have been cut like that followed by being shifted by people from the outside cx.. is pretty harsh, so if you can't be somewhat empathetic to that then I don't know what will.

STP

The Cathay Pacific Group had four airlines, Hong Kong Express Airways Limited (UO), AHK Air Hong Kong Limited (LD), Hong Kong Dragon Airlines Limited (KA), and Cathay Pacific Airways Limited (CX). KA pilots were not employed by CX, they were employed by KA, the same way UO pilots are employed by UO not CX. The various pilots across bases that have been let go, and the pilots made redundant were employed by CX. KA was a valued part of the group, and their employees earned the mutual respect of other employees in the group, it would however be a misrepresentation to suggest that a KA employee was a CX employee, or a UO employee is a CX employee.

The best analogy I can give you is IAG group (Air Lingus, British Airways, Iberia, Level, and Vueling), IAG closed down OpenSkies their airline based out of Paris last year due COVID. BA also made many pilots redundant due COVID. The argument you are putting forward is like saying the pilots that were out of job when Openskies closed down that have the right to work in the UK should be employed by BA because they were part of the IAG group. Not only should they be employed by BA, they should be employed before the pilots BA made redundant were rehired because they are older.

So we can say that ASL and the original AHK with the classics was the same model, but it was a misrepresentation to think they were CX pilots? But strangely they joined the CX seniority?

Justifying why you have a job over someone else is subjective, company boards will work an outcome anyway they want. CoS18 seems to help support their cause now segregating fleet, regardless of company…

Do we need to raise the base issue, same company but wrong location…

Long bow to draw my friend..

It is not the same, look at the front page of your licence, it will say Hong Kong Dragon Airlines Limited, ASL, VETA, US Basing, Canadian Basing, EU basing, UK Basing, Australian basing etc will say Cathay Pacific Airways Limited.

Ask your colleagues that are now with Air Hong Kong, the front page of their licence will say AHK Air Hong Kong Limited .