Can’t agree more!

Since when ppl start thinking they really own the company after signing the “shameful” COS18? Remember all the right you lost and your allowance is coming to an end very soon.

Everyone just an ERN.

Dingleberry Handpump

They are now…. But they didn’t used to..

maybe you should get a job with them then..

fly1981

In the real world the NEO differences is a PowerPoint slide. I wouldn’t exactly call it proper training. There are no mandatory sims or any other useful requirements. It’s still a 320 series with minimal changes.

sjimmy

There are a few posts on this thread that carry similar sentiments. I find many delusional. You seem to have forgotten what you've signed and given the unprecedented circumstances of the pandemic, hold dearly to what you have, with a misperceived legacy pilot glory. However, are Cathay pilots still legacy standard pilots? The contract has deteriorated so dramatically, it's too early to define where CX pilots will actually sit when aviation rebounds. Many of my CX friends are leaving and the ones who can't are oddly eating into their savings in hope!

An experienced pilot will not find China difficult to fly in. Having been stuck behind Cathay jets for 20 years going into Hong Kong, as they often sit low and slow, sometimes on the TCAS peripherals, perhaps the best approach for China is to fly as the Chinese carriers do? It looks rank-amateur, but as you are paid similar to mainland pilots, Green Dot at 20 miles will not only keep you out of trouble, but also keep the dollars ticking over. CX don't fly visual approaches nor circle as KA did, so perhaps dumbing down the 320 operation with speed restrictions a useful tool to avoid transitionary issues into China and onto the narrow-body?

China needs to be viewed holistically. Over the years, at 300K a month, 10 weeks leave etc, a KA pilot would still be mentally done. It all gets too much. Some snapped, some just packed up quietly and left. It's the remote hotels, where you can not find food, where the government regulates the room temperature to 24 degrees in winter and you can't rest, the grind, the delays undetermined. This is the first sector. Two more to go to complete your 13 hour day. Now, I look at your contract and the seriousness with which you seem to take yourself and I can see why nobody I know, former KA, applied to CX. It's not tenable for many.

Adding to all this, the world has changed, China has changed. KA pilots well-handled being targeted during the civil disturbances in Hong Kong. Ramp checks and being monitored and reported for any indiscretion. It may well be plain hostile in the future.

So I hope you can see China isn't just about pulling off a simple intercept from above into KMG, it's going to get into the heads of a lot of people, especially on the contract you've signed.

This brings us back to KMG and many former KA pilots will have a laugh. The famous CX exchange pilot we were sent, botched the approach and blamed the F/O on the ground for not explaining the traps of the approach.

But here's tip for three sectors into China. Don't worry about the silliness of having a 200hr pilot behave like a Captain. Relax a bit. You'll wear out your crew- if the white noise hadn't already done so.

Good past Gnadenburg. But to be fair, the CX exchange pilot we sent you was hardly our finest. Hence why he’s spent most of his CX career hiding in management roles;)

Nice one Gnadenburg. The hard pill to swallow isn't having to go from 4-bars to 2. Nor is it having to 'babysit' a 777 skipper who has had little experience flying in the PRC. Both sides can adapt to the flying with ease. We are professionals and I am sure the common distaste for the company would be a real icebreaker and team bonding experience.

The real hard pill is having to do the same job for a lot less money. It will be tough to stay motivated having to wait 12-15 years for command. How do you keep the donkey running when you don't even offer a proper carrot.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the KA guys leave after getting a free rating renewal and some seat time.

I think the magnitude of the storm we are in is still not clear to many people

rie,

I never disputed that…. However, differences training is required in one form or another , and many of the young local TYPE RATED Ka pilots pushing the issue of re employment have completed all the training required. They have obviously presented a solid case, as was proven by the IMMD putting their foot down. Cx’s 321 training procedures are a carbon copy of the Ka procedures, the reason they employed the top brass Ka training managers. I take my hat off to the captains joining as fo’s…people need jobs, especially younger pilots that are only starting their careers, families, life in general. These pilots have swallowed enough of their pride, being ‘employed’ by the company that effectively destroyed their past, flying the aircraft they were bound to fly, on a route network they have been part of for years, in a lesser rank for half the money, to be greeted with the animosity shown in this thread and many others is absolutely ludicrous.

There was no 'animosity' until it was suggested they should start their position in their old rank. That is not real world thinking.

When will we finally accept that our individual differences, skills and experience levels are irrelevant?

A career in this industry is largely down to luck and maybe a bit of risk taking. You are either at the right time at the right place or you ain't.

Be kind to those in a worse position, chances are you will be next.

Oasis

Correct. Obviously those who have to wax-lyrical about how difficult it is to fly in the mainland are revealing more about themselves.

KA was folded. Their guys & girls are sadly unemployed. Those looking to join another airline as an employee will start at the bottom - including at CX. Sorry, thats how it works.

That is not how it works at CX. DEFO is not starting at the bottom, it is shafting the SOs.

Yes I’m quite aware of that. It’s been thus for a very long time. The point I was making was that anyone joining CX is doing so through the usual, long-standing arrangement.

Dingleberry Handpump

The Mainland is tough. It takes its toll. It helps if you are very comfortable with the aeroplane. You can take that or leave it.

I can happily report, KA pilots are being re-employed. I'd say at a guess about 10% of our former Captains have been re-hired. Pretty amazing because its barren out there. All that I know have been rehired as Direct Entry Captains. Including eight at Cathay Pacific.

If you re-read your own posts you may see why many would think you are delusional. I don't wish you malice, but the contract you signed clearly opens the way for DEC's at Cathay. Will that option be exercised?

Why is it that Aviation is the only industry where if you change employers then you have to start at the bottom? It doesn't happen for lawyers, doctors etc. I can only see it as harming ourselves.

Because of the unions. In the west aviation is heavily heavily unionised. After the shambles of how Covid and everything was handled here I can see the benefits of strong unionisation. Wouldn't it be wonderful if companies stuck to their word and followed their contracts

I was a training captain at 3 airlines , all 3 I started at the bottom as an FO. This thing about retaining Rank and position is ego . Those that can't deal with it wil struggle .

Gnadenburg

11075711]Dingleberry Handpump

The mainland isn’t tough. You do as you’re told. There’s a couple of quirks to it, but I can happily report that all of my former KA colleagues found it fairly straightforward.

Aside from the 320 EIS brigade, why would CX exercise DEC options? There are hundreds more skippers than needed, and that isn’t changing for years.

What a sad bunch you are! CX is not nearly out of trouble yet, and with no inidication of when travel will pick up many of you might be out of jobs a few months down the line anyway. And here you are throwing your toys out of the cot because there will be a DEFO in the right seat flying your shiny little new Neo’s into ****hole China a few years down the line. Get a life!

disingenuous thread title
 

‘Ex KA captains being offered JFO position’
WTF? No such thing as a JFO these days in CX.

You would have to be some sort of useful idiot to believe that, terrain, weather, ATC speaking in Mandarin or level 3 English, metres and/or QFE, crap controlling with multiple runway changes in the last 50 miles. Straightforward? Sure I guess if you were one of the crew of the Apollo 13 it may seem that way.
Of course after operating in that environment 150 times a year you get comfortable (or worse complacent) but it's anything other than straightforward. I believe IOSA would back me up on that :rolleyes:

This is all just made up rubbish, there hasn’t been an airliner accident in the PRC for over a decade, all accidents by PRC carriers happen outside the PRC. IOSA does not support any notion that flying in China is difficult or dangerous, the PRC spends big on infrastructure, they continue to open new massive airports like Chengdu Tianfu International Airport. The county has radar coverage everywhere, runways are long and wide, good lights, and ILS. They plan to have another 120 airports the size of Chengdu Tianfu open in the next 10 years.

KA promoted some new joiners to CN in under a year, PRC airlines employed DEC contractors on the A320/737 they flew around accident free, they even put 200 hr pilots in the RHS of these narrow bodies.

How any KA pilot could have done 150 PRC trips a year is beyond me, two months of leave and all those other days off.

10 months solid flying, minimum off days, 2-3 sectors every working day, that’s how. The ‘new’ joiners that were promoted to captain in under a year almost all had previous China experience, and almost all had substantial airbus experience.
cx’s demerit points in China tell a different story.

I mentioned it's a high threat environment. It's not just about safety (or perceived safety in the PRC's case). It's very stressful, political and confrontational on top of the factors airdualblledfault mentioned. When KA conducted a fatigue survey some ten years ago, one interesting metric was that flying in the PRC was more stressful that the majority of their other destinations by a factor of two. I've flown in every part of the world except Aus and NZ (perhaps that's my problem?) and I would say the 20 years I spent flying in China was the worst. If you think you can start an operation almost from scratch in this environment without issues, you're deluded. The CX management will know and realize the increase in threats to their operation; they would be negligent not to use their best resources to mitigate them. And no accidents in a decade? Not correct.

fly1981

Hyperbole, KA had destinations in many countries, the minority of destinations were in the PRC, doing this in my head so forgive me if I forget any
India - 2
Nepal - 1
Bangladesh - 1
Myanmar - 1
Thailand - 3
Cambodia - 2
Vietnam - 2
Malaysia - 4
Indonesia - 2
PRC - 25
Taiwan - 3
Philippines - 2
Japan - 9
South Korea - 2

No KA pilot was doing 150 sectors a year into the PRC. That claim like many others on this thread on the difficulty and dangers of flying into the PRC, the difficulty of flying an A320, the superiority of KA pilots etc are all baseless. We all know it, grasping at straws is unbecoming.

The hard earned professional respect and courtesy that KA pilots earned over the years is being thrown away in minutes with these obviously false claims.

Finally some sense into this conversation.

airdualbleedfault

What a crock of hyped up nonsense; as for terrain you're under radar control all the time in China, even low temperature corrections are factored in for terrain avoidance; with weather, in China the whole operation ceases if there's massive weather en-route or over an airport, just expect epic delays.

As for ATC speaking in Mandarin, that's true, but if they are speaking in Mandarin, it's definitely not to you.

Regarding last minute RWY changes, how hard is it activating the secondary flight plan or just changing the RWY information on the MCDU?

Flying into Beijing and doing a briefing...

'I will brief for 18r, have 18c in the box, but we will probably get 18l, don't ask me about the arrival, any questions?'

They flew 4 times a week in to Nepal, and there were at least 4 flights in a morning to Shanghai alone. I've seen some of their rosters before, I don't think 150 sectors a year in to the PRC is off by that much, oh and don't forget the multi sector days.

With an average of 30+ sectors a month, majority of sectors outside the prc taken for training, so yes 150 sectors a year in the prc achieved very easy for ex KA pilots

swh - Just a quick look at my logbook shows 165 sectors in and out of the PRC in my last pre-covid normal calendar year. I completed 241 sectors for the year which was pretty normal for a line pilot on the 320 with KA. This included multiple O days in China (mostly spent looking for a half decent feed), 5 train trips from ZSQD to ZHHH and around 14 weeks leave for the year (I was owed a bunch of days from previous years). I could give you 15 -20 years of data from the 330 and 320 fleets but what would be the point, you already know all about the work we did at KA.

I'm not going to get in a pissing contest with people about our job with KA. It's gone. Those of us who did it know what was involved. We sucked it up, got it done, got paid well and went home to our families and friends. You can keep your professional respect and courtesy if your comments are the extent of it's worth. Good luck to whomever in CX picks up the KA routes and rosters once/if things get back to normal. I wouldn't do it for POS18.

To all my ex KA brothers and sisters...We had a great team and I miss working with you all. Hang in there.

swh

Very good management potential by twisting around numbers. Most “non China” ports are operated by wide body or taken for training flights and mostly more than 150 sectors/year.

There is no superiority in KA except “practice makes perfect”.
How many approach have you done a year pre-COVID? Any 3-2-3 pattern or 6day work without O day with single G and min. rest restless overnights?

Please put your hand up for the 321 course. You will love it!

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....2a8c4b555.jpeg
For those at cx who think that we at ka couldn’t do 150 sectors in the prc, well have a look at this typical roster at ka for a 320 driver

swh

it has absolutely nothing to do with how many destinations Ka serviced, it has all to do with the frequency at which the destinations were serviced. If you don’t understand that, you have bigger problems than learning how to fly a Neo.

Alistair

Alistair what you are saying is totally in line with what my friends who were on the A320 were doing, 80ish PRC flights a year, an average of 8 a month/2 per week was pretty normal. What was being claimed above was 150 flights or 300 sectors a year in and out of the PRC, which I think you would agree it is an embellishment.

My KA A320 friends were home far more often than I was, flew way less hours. Swapping war stories their biggest grips were the lack of experience many FOs had, and endless delays. Never did difficulties flying the A320 or danger in flying into the PRC came up.

propje

Why did you have to go back to April 2016 to find an example of a “typical” roster ?

I'll try and make my point again. This may differ from the views of my former colleagues.

The flying in China is the easy part. If you have high levels of experience on the Airbus the curve balls that are thrown at you are moderately challenging. I feel for the guys that may have been on the edge of their seats all day. That's a young man's game. You could see it in the ASR's.

Perhaps the now universal D Scale pilots at Cathay will get better hotels than the former KA? Better buses? Better rosters? Maybe the leisure destinations that give you a breather from the PRC won't go to HKEX, they'll be given to CX? Perhaps the issues with KA training will never rear again? The high failure rates.

The Mainland is really tough. In 2019 I was shocked at guys doing the KA gig for COS18. And when, despite some of the delusion above, the reality sets in, doing the job as a D Scaler will eventually be too much for many at CX.

swh

Very few. All had ten thousand hours of Airbus short haul experience. Some failed ( CX training may be better or not involve the silly mercilessness of KA? )

But what's your point?

Oddball77

There's one well documented case and some anecdotes where KA crew didn't cross a runway with a mainland aircraft on the roll. I know CX guys are super knowledgable but knowing a few critical ATC phrases in Mandarin may save the day.

Last minute runway changes were no problem except for the short time we had CX SOPs. ASR's with up to five runway changes not uncommon in PEK. I think they've improved. However, I think they put their B team on ground movements.

swh

You stated that which is patently incorrect. I'm not sure where the 150 flights/300 sectors comes from?

The point about the PRC and KA's operation being tough is being misconstrued. It would be disingenuous not to acknowledge the draining nature of dealing with KA's PRC rosters. Any reasonable operator could meet the standard required for the flying, 200 hour MPL's could and did, with a lot of mentoring.

I see Gnadenburg has clarified his earlier comments. I agree wholeheartedly with what he is saying.

I would not have done our job for POS18. Anyone who thinks it is a piece of cake for that reward might be in for a bit of a surprise.