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-   -   HOLD ON TO YOUR UNDERPANTS !! (https://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/634877-hold-your-underpants.html)

Curry Lamb 4th Sep 2020 09:49


Originally Posted by crwkunt roll (Post 10878177)
"If the industry is expected to recover ~2023/24 why accept anything other than temporary changes to your contract?"
Why accept any reductions in contracts and/or new inferior contracts at all when the industry was booming?

Maybe because the hand that feeds you (scraps), knows that there are thousand of qualified pilots who are ready to replace you, on laughable COS, when the industry recovers.

If you don't like the permanent changes, or the new CosCov20 contract on 1 October, you always have the option to drag them to court. The AOA has a very reputable, world class lawyer firm, top notch :}

seventy-seven 5th Sep 2020 03:38

Quantas?
Who are they?

simonlake17 5th Sep 2020 06:25


Originally Posted by AllWobbly (Post 10876645)
Well I was in the FTC the other day and was introduced to a couple of them doing sim.

You are clearly confused with engineering training, no new ab initio except conversion 777/747

AllWobbly 5th Sep 2020 08:44


Originally Posted by simonlake17 (Post 10878768)
You are clearly confused with engineering training, no new ab initio except conversion 777/747

Yeah right. Apart from the fact that they were just back from Adelaide

Sam Ting Wong 6th Sep 2020 08:27

Only in Cathay you will find employees complaining about ongoing recruitment and no layoffs. Unbelievable :-)

fly1981 6th Sep 2020 12:43


Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong (Post 10879332)
Only in Cathay you will find employees complaining about ongoing recruitment and no layoffs. Unbelievable :-)

my sentiments exactly...

doolay 6th Sep 2020 14:06

It seems to be more about ongoing recruitment while the airline is grossly overstaffed due to a worldwide pandemic.

We are also told weekly in updates how important it is to cut costs, and keep expenditure down. We all know the big hammer is coming, it's just a matter of when, so I think it is a valid question...why are they still training SOs when we are overstaffed by hundreds if not thousands of pilots?

Porterboy 6th Sep 2020 14:18


Originally Posted by doolay (Post 10879471)
It seems to be more about ongoing recruitment while the airline is grossly overstaffed due to a worldwide pandemic.

We are also told weekly in updates how important it is to cut costs, and keep expenditure down. We all know the big hammer is coming, it's just a matter of when, so I think it is a valid question...why are they still training SOs when we are overstaffed by hundreds if not thousands of pilots?

All of us on the delayed ADL advanced entry courses from early spring were just told our offers are rescinded, so if thereís any courses still happening, those are the cadets.

cxorcist 6th Sep 2020 14:39


Originally Posted by fly1981 (Post 10879440)
my sentiments exactly...

Uh, excuse me, but have you taken a look around HKIA lately? Itís survival mode. There are literally scores upon scores of multi-million dollar aircraft taped up in a losing battle against the corrosive salt water in the air. And youíre thinking what? Money grows on trees? Socialism works? Pay should continue to be rendered for no work? For how long?

I know many of you are fresh out of the utopian universities and public school systems where ideologues brainwashed you about the merits of Marxism in ďcivicsĒ classes. But hopefully you also took history and realized that every single nation that has tried such a system has failed, and that this will never change unless you can eliminate thousands of years of genetically coded human nature from the equation.

Do you think it is somehow different for corporations? Corporations with real balance sheets. Corporations that cannot print money. Corporations that have to pay back their loans. Corporations that are accountable to their shareholders and, ideally, their employees. The world is littered with the remains of businesses that have tried to defy the tenets of capitalism.

I would rather not see Cathay Pacific Airways join the likes of PanAm, Braniff, Eastern, TWA, British Midlands, South African Airways, etc. Iím sorry that some of you will have to lose your jobs. Ideally, everything would have kept plugging along the way it was before China released its scourge upon the earth and nations around the globe decided it was best to destroy the global economy long term.

A miracle cure vaccine isnít going to wipe this virus off the planet for many years. Itís going to have to run itís course, killing many along the way; and only slowed and prolonged, not stopped, by the lockdowns. It might be back to Mom and Dadís place for a bit, for those of you not already there. With luck, you will have a job to return to someday. Even better, you will leave this dead end industry and do something more useful and rewarding. Then maybe, you wonít have to fly with old farts like me and hate us on your SM. Thatís not healthy for anyone.

Sam Ting Wong 6th Sep 2020 15:49

Marxism in Hong Kong, now that's funny :-)))

PS I rather would tread lightly in that department, your beloved capitalism might turn out not to be on your side these days..

cxorcist 6th Sep 2020 16:38


Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong (Post 10879521)
Marxism in Hong Kong, now that's funny :-)))

PS I rather would tread lightly in that department, your beloved capitalism might turn out not to be on your side these days..

You took a pass on the central themes of my post. I never said HK was Marxist or in danger of becoming so, as Mainland China isnít actually communist or Marxist. They are an autocratic oligarchy practicing crony capitalism with military and statist integration fostering a dystopian society.

The central tenets of my post apply Marxism to personal preferences and desired behaviors. This notion that CX can simply afford to keep paying 3500 pilots and well over ten thousand flight attendants reflect unrealistic views of finance. I argue that those stem from leftist academia upon our youth.

If you want to dispute those assertions, feel free, but donít just chuck a spear and run away.

veritas777 6th Sep 2020 18:34

Well guess what, take a look at Emirates, the supposed beacon of capitalism, and what happened to their pilots. Overnight thousands of pilots were turfed, no not under LIFO (haha, funny one), but because they were on the wrong fleet, cost too much, took on too much fuel, etc

It seems like you are deluded enough right now to think that somehow such a reduction would be sure to spare you. Be careful of what you wish for.

cxorcist 6th Sep 2020 19:01


Originally Posted by veritas777 (Post 10879601)
Well guess what, take a look at Emirates, the supposed beacon of capitalism, and what happened to their pilots. Overnight thousands of pilots were turfed, no not under LIFO (haha, funny one), but because they were on the wrong fleet, cost too much, took on too much fuel, etc

It seems like you are deluded enough right now to think that somehow such a reduction would be sure to spare you. Be careful of what you wish for.

This is the Fragrant Harbour forum. Pilots here work for CX and the other HK based airlines. Iím not sure what relevance EK or BA or any other carriers have here.

veritas777 6th Sep 2020 19:42

This is a global situation and a global industry. What other carriers are doing might just be what we're doing next. Especially as you clearly point out, saving money is the key.

LLLQNH 6th Sep 2020 20:24


Originally Posted by veritas777 (Post 10879640)
This is a global situation and a global industry. What other carriers are doing might just be what we're doing next. Especially as you clearly point out, saving money is the key.

A lot of the largest airlines in the world have followed the principal of LIFO! American, United, Air Canada, Delta and Air NZ to name just a few.

So I agree completely what other airlines are doing might be what we are doing next, and the fact the lions share of the industry has followed the LIFO principal as that's what was in their contracts as is in ours, I would be willing to wager a guess that we will also follow the LIFO principal! I see no reason why the retrenchments will not come in reverse seniority order as is written and agreed. Everything is based around seniority!

If not then let's plan on offering upgrades to people based on what fleet they are on or their attendance over the years, oh even better I'll take that Brisbane base and have Christmas off every year thanks, because I didn't call sick for any 797/798 turnarounds! Not likely....

bm330 6th Sep 2020 20:52


Originally Posted by LLLQNH (Post 10879657)
If not then let's plan on offering upgrades to people based on what fleet they are on or their attendance over the years, oh even better I'll take that Brisbane base and have Christmas off every year thanks, because I didn't call sick for any 797/798 turnarounds! Not likely....

And that is exactly the point. If no LIFO then where is the line? Only upgrade on type? No upgrades for anyone who's been on sick leave? No bases for anyone on COS18? Only trainers get ARAPA?

If Cathay is allowed to ignore part of your contract, they can will ignore all of it.

Sam Ting Wong 6th Sep 2020 22:17


Originally Posted by cxorcist (Post 10879544)
You took a pass on the central themes of my post. I never said HK was Marxist or in danger of becoming so, as Mainland China isnít actually communist or Marxist. They are an autocratic oligarchy practicing crony capitalism with military and statist integration fostering a dystopian society.

The central tenets of my post apply Marxism to personal preferences and desired behaviors. This notion that CX can simply afford to keep paying 3500 pilots and well over ten thousand flight attendants reflect unrealistic views of finance. I argue that those stem from leftist academia upon our youth.

If you want to dispute those assertions, feel free, but donít just chuck a spear and run away.

I don't see where you are going with this.
Where does "Marxism" come into play?

First of all, all decisions regarding employment or recruitment numbers are taken by a pure capitalist corporation based in one of the most libertarian and free market cities in the world.

Then of course every employee hopes that if there will be layoffs it won't be him or her, nothing to do with an alleged "marxist" attitude. Pure self-preservation.

And which university in Hong Kong do you think is "marxist" anyway? Yes, I actually agree with you, there might be a disproportionate post-modern influence in academia in some humanity faculties, at least in the western hemisphere (although the likes of Jordan Peterson are frankly a bit obsessed with this idea, universities were always progressive).

But none of our recruits has been anywhere near these institutions, nor have I met a lot of left-of-centre colleagues in the first place, regardless of age and seniority. The vast majority of us has conservative political views, or is even extreme libertarian ( but of course happily accept a bail out by the dreaded state when it suits us :-).Your claim of wide-spread marxism looks more like a shot in the dark to me.

I also would advise against your repeated stereo-typical labelling of an entire generation. Please remind yourself that this is really a recurring psychological phenomenom in human history. Every generation looks down on the next one for some reason, usually claiming the young are "too weak" or "spoiled". It is probably a defense mechanism of the aging human psyche, we should resist falling into that trap.The kids are alright.

Lastly, you seem to assume that in a proper functioning capitalist and marxist-free environment the senior employees should be protected. Well, will see about that.

veritas777 7th Sep 2020 00:36


Originally Posted by LLLQNH (Post 10879657)
A lot of the largest airlines in the world have followed the principal of LIFO! American, United, Air Canada, Delta and Air NZ to name just a few.

You've named all North American airlines bar one, where the unions have actual power and follow through. You won't see pilots on 5+ different contracts flying the same airplane at any of those, for a start.

Meanwhile take a look at Virgin Atlantic that just turfed all 747 pilots with any consideration for LIFO. I'll be willing to bet which one we're more similar to.


and the fact the lions share of the industry has followed the LIFO principal as that's what was in their contracts as is in ours, I would be willing to wager a guess that we will also follow the LIFO principal!
And I would wager that you are wrong for the reasons listed above, primarily being that we are not a North American carrier with North American contract and union representation.

And as cxorcist very astutely points out, CX is in survival mode. Keeping a Cat D'ed 777 FO on full ARAPA and spending hundreds of thousands in conversion costs to the A350 or 747, when a DEFO on COS18 could do the same (or I'd bet, better) job, wouldn't be a very financially smart move wouldn't it now. Again, being careful what one wishes for might be a smart move.

cxorcist 7th Sep 2020 00:56

ďLastly, you seem to assume that in a proper functioning capitalist and marxist-free environment the senior employees should be protected. Well, will see about that.Ē - STW

Indeed we will, and then everyone will know if CX is an airline where a true pilot career is possible or if it will be merely another Chinese contract gig. It seems many on here are hoping for the latter, unaware that it is to their own extreme detriment and peril to watch CX violate its own contracts. As the saying goes, you canít fix stupid! Maybe thatís why my generation looks down upon this new one. Lots of stupidity...

Sam Ting Wong 7th Sep 2020 01:34

But how is it stupid to hope not getting laid-off ? And why should Cathay aspire to be " an airline where a true pilot career is possible" ( aka grandfathering expensive expats)? In your philosophy, isn't it all only about making money and balance sheets?

In my opinion there is a major flaw in your argument. On the one hand you propose a free capitalist market without "socialist" restrictions, and on the other hand you ask for protection of your own position. But the two concepts don't go together. If you reject categorically "leftist" political views, as you have repeatedly, you need to accept this goes both ways. If the table turns, then Smith's invisible hand, that capitalists love so much, this time might form a fist and hit you where it hurts. And no, I certainly don't hope for that, I have the same contract as you after all.


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