Originally Posted by cxorcist
(Post 10783778)
Uh... what are we supposed to do with this “math”? Not being a smart ass, but what precisely does 20k+ furloughed pilots in the US have to do with CX? I get that things are bad, really bad. So what? LIFO! If that means CX only needs 1000 pilots, then I guess my job will be in jeopardy. So be it!
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Originally Posted by herewego75
(Post 10783867)
COS18 Rev1........... the old version has been very silently amended. :ok:
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this company does not lack imagination when it comes to screwing up their staff. Absolutely disgusting.
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More likely, they just lost the protection of LIFO.
Expect the senior guys (>55 years old captains) on POS18 to be screwed. The other COS still retain the LIFO clause so can't be messed with. |
Originally Posted by Zapp_Brannigan
(Post 10784008)
More likely, they just lost the protection of LIFO.
Expect the senior guys (>55 years old captains) on POS18 to be screwed. The other COS still retain the LIFO clause so can't be messed with. it means they don’t get 6 months redundancy payment. Cheaper to make them redundant. |
What if you issue a fire all and sign COS18? If redundancies now have to be made, your dearly earned number on the list is now worth nothing.
The reason I say that is because amendments on COS18 don’t affect anyone else except the few guys that are on it at the bottom, and it is clear the company is not interested in retrenching people on that contract. |
The 500 COS18 are the Co's. Future and cheaper.. Why get rid?
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Originally Posted by drfaust
(Post 10784016)
What if you issue a fire all and sign COS18? If redundancies now have to be made, your dearly earned number on the list is now worth nothing.
The reason I say that is because amendments on COS18 don’t affect anyone else except the few guys that are on it at the bottom, and it is clear the company is not interested in retrenching people on that contract. If they fire everyone to only cherry pick who they want back, that's cleary a circumvention of your contract. They can expect a long legal battle. Don't forget we have more than second officers on cos18. All the recent and future extendees are / will be on it. They are happy with them on cos18... Until they are not. |
Disappointing that this was surruptitiously done on a weekend.
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The 500 COS18 are the Co's. Future and cheaper.. Why get rid? |
Well, according to a friend of mine in management, what they don't want is to get rid of any 747 pilot.
Make what you want from that... |
If COS18 is forced on everyone via a sign or be fired, people can choose to not sign it and take their statutory redundancy.
If you do sign it, you will no longer enjoy LIFO protection based on seniority/redundancy lists. That being said the monetary incentive disappears for firing the senior and experienced, so those guys would very likely keep their employment. So technically, for the company, it can be done. It would just require very very bold actions on their part. The crap part is we would all either end up unemployed or on a much worse contract, the good part is more people could remain employed. Am I missing something? |
Yes, what you are missing is that if you don't feel coercised into signing a new contract, they can't make you redundant unless they've made all pilots junior to you redundant.
But if you want to volunteer to sign pos18, be my guest, ask your chief pilot. I am sure your efforts will be appreciated and well rewarded. |
Originally Posted by doolay
(Post 10784054)
Disappointing that this was surruptitiously done on a weekend.
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Yup. Exactly, Zapp. And the other thing is that the company has contracts in jurisdictions where it cannot be easily modified (certainly not without the consent of the contractees). Seniority is the most clear cut thing in the contract and it's literally in black and white. So in some of those areas it requires layoff in reverse seniority order with definitive pay protection for those laid off in any case according to their contract. And those contracts are enforceable through the grievance process and/or court.
And it's not like the company could shut the base with the intent to dodge this responsibility on an existing contract. If this scenario occurred it almost certainly would go to court and relevant inter-company comms subpoenaed. Kind of like defrauding the residents of a town and then skipping town (with some type of store still in that town and a business in other towns). The officials would go after your store in that town and you certainly couldn't do business there anymore--and may well be able to attach assets from other towns to the debt. In fact, given that the company has been paying taxes in the US for a degree of work performed there even for HKG based pilots, this might be one avenue for even those aggrieved there to pursue relief. Like I said the contract is clear. If they want to furlough out of seniority they will have to pay those with seniority to allow this to happen (and the only real way to do it on some of the collective agreements would be to pay those individuals what they believed to be a reasonable sum to voluntarily leave or take a temporary hiatus). Or they will go to arbitration/court and lose anyway. |
Well the question isn’t really about me and I am most definitely not jumping to sign away anything. It was a genuine question: if they give everyone notice, and then offer COS18, what exactly is it we could do about it? I’m also talking about HKG here because I don’t know how anything works at the bases.
If the alternative to signing is taking redundancy they could well still follow the LIFO principle in the contracts. The person on the list before you that signs disappears from that list, if they don’t sign they also disappear from the list because of being made redundant, so when your number is up they are not firing out of seniority. That’s what I meant and it’s a genuine question. That would mean that someone junior would voluntarily take redundancy so that someone senior could remain on their contract as opposed to signing COS18 and remaining employed. It is a highly undesirable scenario, but it seems it would be the only legal way to circumvent redundancies outside of seniority. Is there anything that can actually prevent this from happening? |
Originally Posted by Dilbert68
(Post 10784186)
What exactly did they do? I can't even see COS 18 on crew direct as I am not on that contract...
yesterday they sneaked in a new version of COS18 eff 16/5/20. A couple of minor tweaks but the REALLY interesting bit is that there is no redundancy clause in the new version, whereas it warranted an entire section in the previous version... |
Originally Posted by drfaust
(Post 10784256)
Well the question isn’t really about me and I am most definitely not jumping to sign away anything. It was a genuine question: if they give everyone notice, and then offer COS18, what exactly is it we could do about it? I’m also talking about HKG here because I don’t know how anything works at the bases.
If the alternative to signing is taking redundancy they could well still follow the LIFO principle in the contracts. The person on the list before you that signs disappears from that list, if they don’t sign they also disappear from the list because of being made redundant, so when your number is up they are not firing out of seniority. That’s what I meant and it’s a genuine question. That would mean that someone junior would voluntarily take redundancy so that someone senior could remain on their contract as opposed to signing COS18 and remaining employed. It is a highly undesirable scenario, but it seems it would be the only legal way to circumvent redundancies outside of seniority. Is there anything that can actually prevent this from happening? Now one thing that might be able to help is if by doing things that way in HKG it adversely affected someone on a base in some way (at least in a forum where the contract is actionable under law). And they could show that the way HKG was doing things violated the redundancy provision of their CA/EA/CBA and had harmed them with a future contract or upgrade opportunity in some way (for example if HKG terminated the contract in HKG, forced everyone onto POS18 or whatever, then shut the base and forced returnees onto POS18 you could certainly demonstrate that the entire shebang was deliberately done to evade the redundancy provisions of the original EA/CA/CBA on the base and take it for legal action in the based country). Considering the costs if I were the company I'd make some sort of very attractive voluntary option to stay out of the quagmire. And/Or follow the contract exactly as written and furlough (with stipulated pay protection) as it's delineated in reverse seniority order. But I ain't them. |
Slasher. One thing I can certainly dissuade you of is the idea they will be offering an "attractive" redundancy package. Not going to happen.
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COS18
Originally Posted by DessertRat
(Post 10784357)
yes you can - it’s on Crew Direct under Flight Crew People Services. But I’ll summarise for you:
yesterday they sneaked in a new version of COS18 eff 16/5/20. A couple of minor tweaks but the REALLY interesting bit is that there is no redundancy clause in the new version, whereas it warranted an entire section in the previous version... |
Absolutely
During the SYD base mess the guys taking VR only got 6 months.
Originally Posted by mngmt mole
(Post 10784418)
Slasher. One thing I can certainly dissuade you of is the idea they will be offering an "attractive" redundancy package. Not going to happen.
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I’m sure that you can use your extended furloughs to spare a thought for Barnaby and Merlin Swire who, despite losing £280 million last year, still managed to rise from 27th to (25th in the Sunday Times Rich List. Their net worth declined to a paltry £4,800,000,000....😑
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Poor guys, maybe we could start a crowd fund?
a Rolls Royce oil change doesn’t come cheap.. |
Speaking of which, why would they still allow the low experience guy entering the workforce without paying anything upfront? As far as I know, many airlines do require a certain down payment from their perspective cadets and then reimburse them through salary once they start flying with them. Isn’t it another way to save cost?
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No it doesn’t, rudderless ship it is.
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Course it does. They are on COS18, Dah.
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It could be a good thing for us. Be hard to justify making anyone redundant when they still have kids in the training pipeline.
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Originally Posted by doolay
(Post 10786440)
It could be a good thing for us. Be hard to justify making anyone redundant when they still have kids in the training pipeline.
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So in summary, the company should have laid off guys a while ago, the more the better. Aviation is starting up again so best they lay them off before they need them. BA and it’s competitors in Europe aren’t laying off based on seniority, they’re doing whatever they need or want to do and BALPA can’t stop it.
But here in Hong Kong, the average more senior ppruner thinks - follow seniority, lay-off lots so the company is saved and I keep my job but btw don’t downgrade me. |
Originally Posted by Pickuptruck
(Post 10787305)
...But here in Hong Kong, the average more senior ppruner thinks - follow seniority, lay-off lots so the company is saved and I keep my job but btw don’t downgrade me.
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Originally Posted by DessertRat
(Post 10787336)
Yes. Because that’s exactly how the contract is written.
You need to go read BA's reply to BALPA....... |
I believe the HM's Exchequer said that there won't be money for 1000+ conversion courses in order to honor seniority.
Fleet layoffs are the requirement for government money to arrive at BA and VS.
Originally Posted by Pickuptruck
(Post 10787340)
And as BA has stated, the choice is layoff as per contract and the company goes bust, or layoff as per what's feasible for the company's survival. So you're keen to layoff as per the contract so the company goes to the wall and 29,000 lose their jobs. You can't layoff on the 747 fleet, how are people so dumb they can't see that. Likewise if the company needs top drag from the 777 fleet to the 747 inspire of the Airbus, they will.
You need to go read BA's reply to BALPA....... |
It doesn't matter if it's COVID, SARS, GFC, 9/11...a Contract is a Contract. Otherwise where do the excuses end?
...'oh it's a Tuesday, we certainly can't keep to the Contract obviously it being a Tuesday and all.' It's these sort of events that we are experiencing right now that are the exact reason we have legally binding Contracts, so Companies can not do whatever they please. |
the company will be hammering the force majeure scenario to wriggle out of contractual obligations like night follows day
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Originally Posted by JMock
(Post 10787547)
the company will be hammering the force majeure scenario to wriggle out of contractual obligations like night follows day
I actually agree that they can actually do what they want. But in the end, it's going to be up to a judge to decide if what they did was legal or not. In the Paris base closure scenario, not only did it cost the company millions, it also cost two managers their job. Hopefully, the remaining managers learned from their predecessors' mistakes. |
..."managers learning from their mistakes"....! You DO know which airline we work for don't you?? :rolleyes:
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Originally Posted by Pickuptruck
(Post 10787305)
So in summary, the company should have laid off guys a while ago, the more the better. Aviation is starting up again so best they lay them off before they need them. BA and it’s competitors in Europe aren’t laying off based on seniority, they’re doing whatever they need or want to do and BALPA can’t stop it.
But here in Hong Kong, the average more senior ppruner thinks - follow seniority, lay-off lots so the company is saved and I keep my job but btw don’t downgrade me. And then you have the participation trophy entitled kid on the bottom of the list that thinks that life's setbacks don't somehow apply to him too. Well, maybe they won't and don't with the perverted system we have in place here and you will get off light, but as far as it concerns me, don't expect that I'll be picking up your tab too. I already paid my dues here and elsewhere. More than once. It is your turn now. Sadly. Welcome to the industry. |
Very eloquently stated Vtwin. Sadly, the logic and poignancy of what you explain will be lost on the "entitled generation", and our cynical management will use that very same logic against us in the coming weeks. As William Wallace once cried....Freedom ! (and ultimately that means exiting this toxic place).
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Wallace didn't cry for freedom on the internet and then compromised in real life.
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I'm sure you are without sin. Got it.
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