Looking for the bright side!
 

Yes, we have some very capable FO’s, without question. The reason that commanders often leave those FO’s in charge through the ITCZ is not only as a result of their capabilities but due to fatigue mitigation, so they as commanders, have a semblance of alertness for the upcoming approach and landing. You’re right, training standards the world over, have dropped but there are still standards nevertheless and make no mistake, CX is still very picky about its command standard.

I don’t think for one minute that we all aren’t going to experience cuts and probably, deep cuts at that. I also concede that ARAPA is very much in the cross hairs (and has been for sometime).


What you fail to appreciate however, is that the company needs to stem the cash haemorrhage now, not several months down the line and what you propose will take that, several months, at least and by then, there may well be an uptick in the industry. Also, the “very capable senior FO’s” that are next in line for command upgrades, are most likely at the tail end of CoS99 or the beginning of CoS08 and therefore, all on ARAPA (LEP’s excluded unfortunately). So, your proposal is cost neutral at best. However, if the company were to scrap ARAPA altogether (and that’s a distinct possibility), letting 500 captains go and lose all that experience on the flight deck to only then train up FO’s to commanders, is illogical and I would bet, more costly than keeping everyone in their rank and just scrapping ARAPA.

The truth is, nobody knows what the company is going to do (maybe not even the managers themselves, right now) so, to try and second guess their decision, only sets you up for frustration and disappointment and upsets your colleagues in the process. Further, it is incumbent upon the HKAOA to fight for every pilot’s contract, irrespective of what contract they’re on and not rob Peter to pay Paul.

I am trying to look on the bright side and I sincerely hope we all get to keep our jobs with the minimum financial loss to ourselves and our families. Best of luck to us all.

Maybe closing Dragon with mass redundancies and integrating small percentage into other airlines on cheaper contracts would give the group the immediate cash savings it needs, then add onto the scrap of ARAPA with a short notice period would mean they are very much winning.. I guess it’s coming soon.. let’s see

Aviation companies in Hong Kong have always had carte blanche to request work visas from the HK immigration department due to a lack of locally available talent, but times have changed. If you are a PR holder in Hong Kong and facing an uncertain future, your company cant let you go and then keep someone who is on a work visa sponsorship.

I have engaged the Hong Kong immigration department and they confirmed this emphatically.

Drop them an e-mail or a call they've been very helpful. The labour department will also help you in regards to your employment safety for permanent residents.

Hope this helps.

Somebody just posted this on the ME Forum,

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...cash-injection

Accommodation and Rental Assistance to Expatriate Officers is an element of our contract, “[to] be adjusted to reflect market conditions in Hong Kong”, although the specifics are indeed detailed in ARAP policy.

As such they would have a legal fight on their hands if they simply slashed that one aspect of our contracts after over fifteen years of precedent. If it were that easy they would have done it a long time ago.

Cuts and pain are coming one way or another, whether it be more SLS, LIFO, or even people on COS99/08/ARAP simply being “invited“ to leave in favour of cheaper COS18 crew, but no point in trying to outdo each other with doomsday scenarios, many of which smack of schadenfreude.

Stop tearing your hair out and doing the accountants’ job for them, do your own job safely instead (if you’re lucky enough to still be working) and stay healthy, and when the time comes and they tell us what their plan is, deal with it as your personal circumstances allow.

I wonder if they'll use that 'cash injection' for more Base Training in Macau?

Kinda feel sorry to the guys at Dragon to say this, but seriously, they are doing even less than the guys at Cathay at the moment, and with a number of cities in China shut down again according to mainland info, who knows when that China market will ever come back.... Shut down dragon, gives those guys a return package to HKE for DEC or DEFO at CX in the future at cos 18 or 20/21/22 when the market needs them... that would stop the some cash hemorrhaging right away....

Everyone is trolling everyone, no one can just bloody well sit on their hands.

Let’s just hope the group makes the right decision and no one’s career is permanently damaged at the end of this.

This too shall pass..

The really ironic thing is not that long ago several folks completely sold their integrity to kowtow to the Bejing ChiComms in order to preserve overflight of China and appease the CAAC. (Very notably several individuals did not and my hat's off to them).

And now this happens.

Just goes to show if you make the right decision at the time -- one which preserves your self-respect, morals, and integrity -- you're never wrong. Some folks put too high a value on money and stuff and later find out they were chasing the wrong thing and wasted a significant fraction of their life. Who you are and what you do isn't defined by some number in some account somewhere.

You really think we are doing anything significant except for the freighter guys? I kind of feel sorry for the pax fleets full stop. HKE are doing no flying at all the moment..........

Some airlines like QF have different legal government policies which cater for Stand Down etc. Aus based CX crew took a big hit but better than a full Stand Down. These policies are suppose to be temporary and if going for long term then they go into full layoffs which is last in first out like almost every other airline in the world. Most other industry's have similar policy. So if these airline needs to restructure according to COS it will be last in first out and accept nothing else.

Before we get to that point when are we going to see redundancy in other departments? Every other airline chopped management positions and then went through the entire airline from top to bottom to cater for the new size of the airline. Need to see leadership from top to the bottom just because they once again think that pilots should be paid like bus drivers. Other airlines recognize that their pilots are front line staff and treat them accordingly and FAIR.

Cut costs: Merge the companies. Seperate branding if need be, but one DFO, one GMA, one GMO, deputies as required. One CMP to roster all including leave etc, one AVMED, one of all the back office functions which are currently duplicated. Want to cut ARAPA and education almost overnight? Follow Jepp recommendation (they are experts in efficiently - most hours for min cost) and base 1/2 your pilots.

Well, that makes perfect sense! Surely CX won’t go with that plan.

We've all seen in this pandemic, that there is no room for common sense, just take a look at government decisions from politicians in places like the USA and UK. Too little too late seems to have been their way of trying to deal with it.

Regarding PR employees versus simply being a HK ID card holder with residency on a work visa, that aspect may well be tested quite soon. Has legislation actually changed? If not, in 2008 this same aspect of LIFO versus government sentiment was looked at some 12 years ago, and whilst it was a government 'preference' at that time, our contractual LIFO trumped their preference of not making locals redundant. Ultimately, back then it didn't need to be tested.

I still think an incentivised early retirement scheme may be a great way to thin out some of the elder but more better remunerated pilots.

LTICX,

To be fair to the US and UK and other countries struggling, China and the WHO hid the nature of this virus for a long time. They exported it very intentionally by locking down domestic travel and keeping international open, all whilst not allowing the CDC and other western groups access. This naturally occurring corona virus MIGHT have been intentionally released from the Wuhan Institute of Virology where it was being studied. If not, it was an accidental release but intentionally allowed to spread globally. China is culpable, and everybody knows it. Those pretending otherwise are simply ignorant. This could be the start of a second Cold War. Certainly, an expansion of the recent trade war seems likely.

What about creating a cargo subsidiary with the 747 and furlough the passenger aircraft pilots ?
Wouldn't it save more money than cutting KA.?

Anyway longhaul is dead for years and 320/321 might be the future of aviation in many places.

Very telling that the originators, (shhh, we know who!) of the virus are crapping on all butt hurt about western countries, especially US and Aust calling for an independent enquiry into the origins.
Surely if you know who was innocent and not complicit in its origin, cover up, or spread of the Wuhan virus, then wouldn't they too want an enquiry.
Very telling that their puerile outbursts consist of "it's not fair/it's not helping/we're not going to buy Australian beef anymore"
Maybe it was an alien induced virus after all.

Where do you guys get this crap? We are all on a common seniority list, and that needs to be respected. Period. Full stop. End of story. Any other machinations by CX (or you dweebs imagining their slimy, seniority avoiding plots for them) needs to be met with the full disdain and resistance of the collective pilot group.

CoS18 pilots and many more above them need to accept that you can and should be made redundant / furloughed. I’m not taking ANY concessions to keep you on the payroll. It’s not my job to do that. I have fought too hard for too long to have a decent career to take one in the chops so some almost, baby pilot can have a job flying widebodies.

Trust me, you will feel the same way when you are decently far up a seniority list listening to the whiny brats at the bottom talk about how the airline needs to get rid of you because you’re too expensive and your experience doesn’t count for much.

+1
Last in First out baby.

why not both?

If you are trying to cut costs why keep the expensive staff?.

They don't care how smooth the grey beards land the plane, to the bean counters a pilot is a pilot is a pilot,

Yes.......they don't care - until they do!
When due to dilution of, or loss of, large amounts of experienced talent, that there's a headline making accident concurrent with horrendous loss of life.

So if you think keeping the expensive staff is costing a lot, then try having an accident.

Those same expensive staff have often been the focal point of negating potential incidents that only avoided being the headline news by their experience and ability in ensuring aircraft and bodies were not reverting to much smaller parts.

The problem is that everyone is looking out for themselves. Collective action by a divided pilot group is unrealistic when it's a case of senior pilots not being willing to make temporary concessions while expecting junior pilots to face redundancies. Turkey's voting for Christmas comes to mind. Self preservation is the reason the unions are so ineffective and looked upon with disdain by management. Yes seniority should be respected but tell that to someone with a young family. I'm just playing devils advocate here.

The company has us all by the balls, the industry is dead and most of the airline is grounded. We have no leverage and will have to take whatever they dish out on the chin.

Airline business have already calculated the risk of accident and have factored that in with appropriate hedges/liability protection.They have decided the risk is worth the reward.

The premium to hire Chuck Yeager versus average Nigel is not worth it.

Chuck Yeager wouldn’t have worked for the Swires anywayOver the last few weeks, he’s been responding to all manner of questions posed to him on Twitter – and giving some extremely forthright answers.

One follower asked General Yeager, lionised in Tom Wolfe’s book The Right Stuff, why he appeared to have a negative attitude towards the British.

He responded: ‘Arrogant. Nasty to Americans when we were over there saving them.

‘Nasty when I visited them a few years ago - wanted a whole lot for nothing.’

Read Robin Olds book he was of a different opinion. Yeager's biography doesn't paint him as a particularly nice character.

I think redundancies and LIFO is about as likely as getting the Chinese to admit they created the virus (not that I think they did). It aint going to happen. No way the company will lose POS18 kids to retain 30yr, ex-A-scale, non-sls taking Captain living in a serviced apartment for $105,000HKD/month. Argue the legalities of your COS all you like. It Will not happen.

I have met Chuck Yeager in person and seen him carry himself in a group of highly competent and talented test pilots (to include a pilot with two MiG kills). I can tell you definitively that he is in fact an a$$hole. That he only made one star general after his storybook career is quite indicting. That said, his accomplishments deserve our respect.

What world am I living in? Good question. Hopefully, one in which both sides honor a contract that was signed (to include LIFO), not a Chinese toilet paper contract only valid when things don’t get rough.

Privileged? Did you get that from your anthropology professor in uni? Was I privileged when I was picking sand out of my teeth, jumping in and out of chem gear on 40+ degree days, and having every imaginable size AAA shot at me? Was I privileged doing hard yards at FBOs working for flying time? Or how about flying seven legs a day for near minimum wage?

No, I don’t think so.

Privileged is when your tiger mommy fills out your CX application for you, and then you get to go on vacation to Adelaide to fly a DA-42 around the pattern. Then, poof! Magically you are qualified to fly big jets for CX while you move back in with mommy and play video games on all your time off. That’s privilege!

Did I miss something or did the Internet just raise the biggest generation of twats in the entire history of the world?

[QUOTE=cxorcist;10782458]What world am I living in? Good question. Hopefully, one in which both sides honor a contract that was signed (to include LIFO), not a Chinese toilet paper contract only valid when things don’t get rough.

Privileged? Did you get that from your anthropology professor in uni? Was I privileged when I was picking sand out of my teeth, jumping in and out of chem gear on 40+ degree days, and having every imaginable size AAA shot at me? Was I privileged doing hard yards at FBOs working for flying time? Or how about flying seven legs a day for near minimum wage?

No, I don’t think so.

Privileged is when your tiger mommy fills out your CX application for you, and then you get to go on vacation to Adelaide to fly a DA-42 around the pattern. Then, poof! Magically you are qualified to fly big jets for CX while you move back in with mommy and play video games on all your time off. That’s privilege!

Did I miss something or did the Internet just raise the biggest generation of twats in the entire history of the world?[/QUOTE

wow, this is a great spectators sport.

Looking forward to the come back.

I don't doubt that's their intent, but the contract is clear. And that's what a contract is for.

The only sticking point might be one of enforceability. There are jurisdictions where the provision is completely enforceable -- to the point of both grievance and court if violated -- and in some of these the company winds up paying for a large chunk of the process. But it's not esoteric BS; it's about as clear cut as it gets (and you can't close down an operation to evade your legitimate contractural responsibilities--not only is it illegal but you are usually found out and all of the inter-office comms get subpoenaed). And there are jurisdictions where enforcing it might be dodgy.

The company could avoid this by voluntary separations at the upper ends but will have to pay for it. Effectively paying for seniority invested and the contract they agreed. At the end of the day this might be a wise business decision and cheaper all around for everyone. What would NOT be wise is an attempt to end-run the contract and shenanigans because no matter who or what you are this tends to come back at a person.

I once asked [as a conversation starter] a newly minted 2 bar how many solo hours you have?

The ans was: zero

At least somebody gets it... No doubt this isn’t his first time around the pattern.

[QUOTE=Ecam321;10782461]While I appreciate your enthusiasm, it’s not a spectator sport. It’s a rather sad indictment of society today. The Western world is losing, not to the Chinese or other brutal dictatorships, but to itself as a self-defeating snowflake-ism takes deep root within democracies. This is what happens when academia, the media, and unelected bureaucrats get to define societal norms.

[QUOTE=cxorcist;10782501]Actually I was referring too the absolute disintegration between your ranks as being a spectators sport.

I have worked for 5 airlines in a 25 year career and never have I seen such a disconnect between the senior and junior pilots. It’s sad you guys really hate each other and wish each other ill. Its entertaining too read your posts but sad in the big scheme of things.

I’m sure your an awesome aviator but you are not the saviour of aviation, the industry would function quite happily with out you.

These snowflakes you refer too are the future of aviation, you are the past, like it or not.

The future..
 

[QUOTE=Ecam321;10782516]Hand off a career of hard work and dedication to a system hell bent on Dumbing Down the professional ranks till they fit into that nice little slot on a Directors spreadsheet.. Should the previous generation simply walk away quietly as they are continuously derided by a self serving management structure who stupidly expect apathy, OR, perhaps out of concern make some noise about ex barista snowflakes shovelled into a "job" by daddy or an incompetent and naive "People" department ?? Looks like we're going to find out !!

Too late for #CXit

Also a result of the, 'even if you come last, you get a trophy' world we live in today.

A generation with an enormous sense of entitlement.

Delta
 

15th

Delta announced that ALL of its 777 fleet + MD80s to be retired immediately.. That plus by end of the Government business assistance programs (~ August) it will have a SURPLUS of approx 7000 pilots. AA has hinted at 4800 !!!!
Passengers passing through US airports pre virus, 2.28 MILLION per DAY ! Now, 94k with no prospects of much improvement for 2 > 3 years.

Do the math...

Usual proforma being followed: first release a very downbeat article in the SCMP (....$4.5B loss in the first 4 months of the year :eek:), then quickly follow up with the unfortunate news that they need to make drastic cuts to preserve the airline (with no mention of there being any snap backs when the situation improves, of course). Been there, done that too many times over the past 30 years.

Uh... what are we supposed to do with this “math”? Not being a smart ass, but what precisely does 20k+ furloughed pilots in the US have to do with CX? I get that things are bad, really bad. So what? LIFO! If that means CX only needs 1000 pilots, then I guess my job will be in jeopardy. So be it!