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COS 99 extensions- seniority is over
CX seniority has officially ended with 4 extensions keeping their seniority, & that’s only to kick off. Cool ! , now we can all bid for what we want and commercial requirements or who gets there first decides who gets what. It’s the Donald Trump system now. Anything goes and anythings up for grabs- dog eat dog. Personal deals rule ok . Pure and simple chaos while the master rubs his hands. At least now any doubt is removed and we know how it really works. |
Ummmmmm, plenty of guys 15 to 20 years ago were extended past their 55th birthday ( when we were all on 55 retirement age ) on the frighter fleet, kept their seniority for staff travel etc. plenty of us were mighty annoyed to.........Some stayed 5 years.....or more until RA 65 popped along.......then they stayed some more....... This ain’t new |
Hey sorry.... but not sure what planet you are on? But seniority is from DOJ and not dependent on what contract you are on. Having said that.... I'm on COS99 and I very much doubt they will allow, even if i wanted to, to extend past that.
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There are current COS 99 pilots extending on COS 18, it is happening right now.
They are accepting a massive pay cut and greatly inferior conditions just to hang around. I just can't understand these people. Thanks for letting the company know that our pay and beneifts are still too high, you pathetic twats will probably work for free. You are all lepers, why don't you go make friends with all the new TC's. You are both cut from the same cloth. |
Originally Posted by ACMS
(Post 10491056)
Ummmmmm, plenty of guys 15 to 20 years ago were extended past their 55th birthday ( when we were all on 55 retirement age ) on the frighter fleet, kept their seniority for staff travel etc. plenty of us were mighty annoyed to.........Some stayed 5 years.....or more until RA 65 popped along.......then they stayed some more....... This ain’t new This time they keep all their seniority |
All that matters is they are on COS beyond their contractually agreed retirement age and retaining full seniority.
This must be a first in the airline industry Fair play to CX management for sneaking this one in it certainly seems to have gone unnoticed so far anyway.[/left] |
I understand your anger and frustration, but ultimately it is only yet more evidence that the career prospects at CX are effectively over. If you want a "flying job", then there is one here, but it won't represent anything that normally constitutes a "career". CX will always find ways to undermine and devalue your job conditions. That applies now, and it will apply 25 years from now. It is the institutional psychosis that permeates our management. The only real option is to attempt to find employment with an airline based in a country that has proper labour laws, a recognised labour/management negotiating protocol and a place that you won't find (insert name of any third world country you can imagine) them hiring people that are happy to work appalling hours for far less than you would accept. Needless to say, CX can only be considered as a place to get the hell away from.
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Extended
Originally Posted by ACMS
(Post 10491056)
Ummmmmm, plenty of guys 15 to 20 years ago were extended past their 55th birthday ( when we were all on 55 retirement age ) on the frighter fleet, kept their seniority for staff travel etc. plenty of us were mighty annoyed to.........Some stayed 5 years.....or more until RA 65 popped along.......then they stayed some more....... This ain’t new Ya, check out the SSI's ("senior" sim instructors) - some near 75 years old...... NO LIFE, NO MORALS... Stealing "check" positions from those who "in seniority" should get them and all that for way < than 50 % of the salary.. Seniority is a joke like most every COS at CX. |
Seniority
Originally Posted by Convair Coronado
(Post 10490935)
CX seniority has officially ended with 4 extensions keeping their seniority, & that’s only to kick off. Cool ! , now we can all bid for what we want and commercial requirements or who gets there first decides who gets what. It’s the Donald Trump system now. Anything goes and anythings up for grabs- dog eat dog. Personal deals rule ok . Pure and simple chaos while the master rubs his hands. At least now any doubt is removed and we know how it really works. Sorry pal, ended a long time ago. That along with a merit based promotion system... Take a look around !!! #CXit |
The sad but defining truth: ask anyone, and if they were honest, would reply that they wished they had picked a different airline to establish a career at. Every single one of us.
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Originally Posted by Air Profit
(Post 10491315)
The sad but defining truth: ask anyone, and if they were honest, would reply that they wished they had picked a different airline to establish a career at. Every single one of us.
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Originally Posted by Air Profit
(Post 10491315)
The sad but defining truth: ask anyone, and if they were honest, would reply that they wished they had picked a different airline to establish a career at. Every single one of us.
But things changed. Boy DID they change. Like cancer, it could have happened to anyone (or any carrier) but it happened to us. One of those nasty turns of life. Most prudent have by now bolted, are in the process of bolting, or are kinda retired-on-active-duty as it were. Now for the self-deluding idiots who might consider coming onboard at present — given all that has happened and been well documented — well I’ve got nothing but scorn and contempt. |
Extensions beyond 55 in the past have resulted in frozen seniority and/or being moved onto freighter terms and even being placed at the bottom of the list. To point out the obvious, extending and maintaining seniority affects EVERYONE!! From career progression, career earnings with delayed upgrades stretching on years to being disadvantaged when it comes to type transfers, base slots, roster requests and leave allocation.
Time to WAKE UP and make some noise, general apathy which seems to have manifested itself is not going to help. Express your dissatisfaction to the company and the AOA. Ramifications for your careers are huge. Extensions won't go away, they're a direct result of crew shortages and training limitations, but need to be made with due respect to the seniority system, as they were in the past. |
Originally Posted by Exiled Aviator
(Post 10491645)
Extensions beyond 55 in the past have resulted in frozen seniority and/or being moved onto freighter terms and even being placed at the bottom of the list. To point out the obvious, extending and maintaining seniority affects EVERYONE!! From career progression, career earnings with delayed upgrades stretching on years to being disadvantaged when it comes to type transfers, base slots, roster requests and leave allocation.
Time to WAKE UP and make some noise, general apathy which seems to have manifested itself is not going to help. Express your dissatisfaction to the company and the AOA. Ramifications for your careers are huge. Extensions won't go away, they're a direct result of crew shortages and training limitations, but need to be made with due respect to the seniority system, as they were in the past. those extenders in the past kept their DOJ for staff travel etc.......that was the issue |
And some returned to flying pax 744 with their original seniority. Discrimination is an interesting animal, it’s ok to shout that these guys shouldn’t be extending past 55, but they have invariably had their commands delayed because many Captains extended to 65 when COS08 was offered. Where does it stop? What particular instances of age discrimination are OK? I would say NONE are and RA65+ should have been offered as a no cost item back in COS08 days, like it was at KA. |
Flex 88
Originally Posted by Flex88
(Post 10491305)
Ya, check out the SSI's ("senior" sim instructors) - some near 75 years old...... NO LIFE, NO MORALS... Stealing "check" positions from those who "in seniority" should get them and all that for way < than 50 % of the salary.. Seniority is a joke like most every COS at CX.
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COS 08 was simply bringing retirement age into line with the rest of the world. 55 is far too young to retire so some of us took advantage of the opportunity to stay. No regrets from me and when a pax slot (on pax pay) on the 744 offered a chance to never fly freight again in the Classic, that group of pilots would've been mad to refuse. In the transition to COS 08, many just stayed in their pax jobs (and bases) and flew till 65 - then retired. Some underwent a more complicated transition but I don't begrudge those who were allowed to simply stay where they were.
It was a transition period and a few got a very good deal whilst the industry changed to RA 65. |
Work till when ??
Originally Posted by Paul852
(Post 10491419)
I'm curious as to what age you believe is the maximum at which a person should be "allowed" to earn a living from what is likely to be the only major marketable skill they have?
Meritocracy - dead Seniority - dead Empathy for those with families still under retirement age trying to make a go of it - dead Only good rules are the rules that suit you, n'est-ce pas ?? Me, me, me, me....... |
Originally Posted by herewego75
(Post 10491652)
HAHAHA are you serious? Express concerns to the AOA? Now that's the biggest joke I have heard today. What have they done for us - name one good thing?
grow a pair, sally |
Arfur, there you have it, right there. join the "few" and get a good deal when it suits but describe current Management a "bunch of c...s" when it doesn't. That's why we, "commercial" pilots go for hire & reward. Concerned about what's painted on the side of an aeroplane has no longer any worth in the industry.
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Don't think I made my point very well Landflap. "The few" (who became "Everyone") were those after about 2008/9 who simply stayed on the pax Fleet until 65 on their Bases etc - that was an exceptional deal which didn't apply to me. I had to give up my base and convert to the Classic. COS 99ers were offered a chance to join COS08 but they refused and kept COS 99 with the understanding that they would retire at 55. It is typical Cathay that they can now have their cake and eat it at the expense of others. I don't think my actions disadvantaged anyone as RA65 was becoming the industry standard anyway. Don't shoot the messenger!
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Originally Posted by Firefly47
(Post 10491743)
How does any captain taking COS18 to stay past 55 sleep at night? Probably the same guys joining training but claimed they were "forced"
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Arfur, thanks for the courtesy of a clarification. I see your point. That has been my downfall as I see all sides of an argument and was a Management Guy for a long time . Glad to get back to line flying & look after myself quite selfishly & ruthlessly. Worked but I have no mates.
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Remember guys and gals, increasing the CX retirement age to 65 will REDUCE time to command!!!
box |
Yeah , and they are also convinced that by reducing EPR you INCREASE the RTOW. Thanks for my customary larf of they day Boxey !
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Originally Posted by boxjockey
(Post 10493921)
Remember guys and gals, increasing the CX retirement age to 65 will REDUCE time to command!!!
box |
Capable
Originally Posted by Paul852
(Post 10492168)
As long as you are capable and wish to would seem reasonable to me.
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Retirement age
I find it strange that the retirement age is even in the contract. How was this negotiated? I think a person should be allowed to fly as long as the regulations, not some odd clause in a contract, allow. I can’t imagine a contract for any profession in the US having a mandatory retirement age. That’s for the regulators. |
There is the rub let’s fly 75. CX is based in HKG. These are HKG contracts governed by HKG law. It is NOT the US,nor AUS, nor Europe. It is pointless comparing the law from those jurisdictions. |
Well I flew or CX for over 10 years. I always thought the age clause was inane. If I had stayed and the age limit had been raised I would have zero problem continuing to that new age. |
sure fly til 75. You just can’t fly into airspace mandated by other jurisdictions to limit pilot retirement age to 65 lotsa luck with that |
What you have to realize is the company will use just about any issue — regulators raising the RA or max hours, economic conditions in a third world nation, wannabees learning to fly, a flood in Johnstown, you name it To attempt to develop a new contract of lower terms and conditions for a segment of the pilot force. And then play this segment against others developing a series of declining contracts. It’s been their MO for years. The market could not be better for pilot opportunities than it is now. Yet for some reason our pilot force whiningly takes whatever the company throws at them. For a time period CC and TB was working and they are parking jets. But POS 18 end runs CC and the new policy gives scabs cover to themselves to end run the TB. After this it becomes a matter of time of whether the bathtub can be filled fast enough. So the writing was on the wall with the escalation to POS 18 — either strike or accept your lot. Apparently the workforce is composed of too many scabs and pussies to do much about their lot other than whine so there ya have it. |
Anyone doing a fleet forum at the moment will hear how they’re sorting the RA55 issue. First guys coming up to 55 in 2021, most want to extend but only a minority are required and will be selected. So, guess what? |
Most want to extend? oh..... What happened 10 years back? |
Originally Posted by Slasher1
(Post 10494982)
What you have to realize is the company will use just about any issue — regulators raising the RA or max hours, economic conditions in a third world nation, wannabees learning to fly, a flood in Johnstown, you name it To attempt to develop a new contract of lower terms and conditions for a segment of the pilot force. And then play this segment against others developing a series of declining contracts. It’s been their MO for years. The market could not be better for pilot opportunities than it is now. Yet for some reason our pilot force whiningly takes whatever the company throws at them. For a time period CC and TB was working and they are parking jets. But POS 18 end runs CC and the new policy gives scabs cover to themselves to end run the TB. After this it becomes a matter of time of whether the bathtub can be filled fast enough. So the writing was on the wall with the escalation to POS 18 — either strike or accept your lot. Apparently the workforce is composed of too many scabs and pussies to do much about their lot other than whine so there ya have it. |
Originally Posted by Pickuptruck
(Post 10515709)
Anyone doing a fleet forum at the moment will hear how they’re sorting the RA55 issue. First guys coming up to 55 in 2021, most want to extend but only a minority are required and will be selected. So, guess what? Looks like management playing fast and loose with work visas may bite them yet again. Forcing a Hong Kong local to retire while being eligible to continue work (with his same aged colleagues actually continuing to work) while the company informs the immigration department that there are no suitable residents in Hong Kong to perform the job. Watch this space. |
One reason for declining salaries could be voting down pay increases.
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Well Sam, you don't vote for a pay increase when it's wrapped around a virtual hand grenade.
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Originally Posted by Progress Wanchai
(Post 10515783)
An issue that’s just been recently raised with the immigration department. Looks like management playing fast and loose with work visas may bite them yet again. Forcing a Hong Kong local to retire while being eligible to continue work (with his same aged colleagues actually continuing to work) while the company informs the immigration department that there are no suitable residents in Hong Kong to perform the job. Watch this space. Not sure why guys are hanging onto this ridiculous notion. |
The guy that so vociferously voiced his concerns for the membership over the so called TA16 hand grenade and effectively killed any chance of it passing has crossed the line and gone into training. Not so altruistic now apparently...
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