|
Originally Posted by Pickuptruck
(Post 10515913)
Sadly incorrect as anyone doing law 101 will tell you. No one is being forced to retire, they are just contracted to employment with Cathay until Age 55. You can be on contract for any length of time, and this one finishes at age 55. You can go fly for anyone else in Hong Kong after your contract with CX ends, you aren’t forced into retirement. Not sure why guys are hanging onto this ridiculous notion. My little birdie tells me that the immigration department is cracking down on issuing work visas when qualified permanent residents who wish to do the job are available. Yep, no one is being forced to retire, just the company may be forced to retain or rehire. |
Originally Posted by Progress Wanchai
(Post 10516008)
“Anyone else” or CX. My little birdie tells me that the immigration department is cracking down on issuing work visas when qualified permanent residents who wish to do the job are available. Yep, no one is being forced to retire, just the company may be forced to retain or rehire. |
Originally Posted by Progress Wanchai
(Post 10516008)
“Anyone else” or CX. My little birdie tells me that the immigration department is cracking down on issuing work visas when qualified permanent residents who wish to do the job are available. |
Sam Ting Wong
Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong
(Post 10515844)
One reason for declining salaries could be voting down pay increases.
#CXit |
I am not holding you back. |
Forgive me if I’m wrong but weren’t ALL pilots offered age 65 retirement years ago? The catch was that A scalers had to accept B scale terms post 55 to continue the extra 10 years. Pretty much all the older captains were on top tier pay scales so it wasn’t that much of a drop. Now the ‘I’ll never sign’ guys ..most of whom were ‘forced’ to retire at 55 up until now...are being offered new crap terms to continue to 65!! Talk about kicking an own goal. The company thinks they can’t really go anywhere at that age so they’re sticking the boot in. Inertia is a great thing for employers. i guess we really showed ‘em again!! |
Originally Posted by Air Profit
(Post 10515857)
Well Sam, you don't vote for a pay increase when it's wrapped around a virtual hand grenade.
Ironic that the (recently back in the GC) person who ranted about voting down the payrise is now ranting about the lack of payrise. All water under the bridge, 4 years of 6% payrise but who’s counting. |
Blunderbus; A quick look at aviation websites lists literally 30-50 positions available for captains with a starting age of 58 or younger . Some of them are paying really good salaries so at this time you are not stuck |
It’s NOT all about the pay.......some of us don’t wish to be away from home for 2 or 3 weeks at a time...... it ain’t that simple unfortunately. |
Originally Posted by ACMS
(Post 10516708)
It’s NOT all about the pay.......some of us don’t wish to be away from home for 2 or 3 weeks at a time...... it ain’t that simple unfortunately. |
Originally Posted by Pickuptruck
(Post 10517330)
The problem is CX pilots want full time pay for minimal work. Problem is CX wants to be able to put people on a string for POTENTIAL work -- 'on call' or 'standby' or whatever you want to call it -- and not pay for it. And also be able to switch around trips (without penalty) without any input from the operating pilot. As to minimize THEIR costs with no guarantee, compensation, or recourse by the crew it affects. This has served no one well. The company continues to collapse their own rosters and has no idea how to flow out or long term allocation of resources for maximum productivity at minimum cost. You have an hours driven process; not a days driven process. It's not a standard office job. Ideally the company pays for 900 hours per year (within FTL and contractural constraints). The major problem is there is no penalty for holding someone on a string (used or not) and for completely collapsing what should be a stable, planned, 'owned' roster. It's a one way street. In time, this breaks the assets you need to operate the machinery. And makes other leave for greener pastures. The net result is wild swings into overtime, unfit crew, increased costs, and decreased productivity. It's an old adage that some of the most expensive things are 'free' and that by being a cheap bastage you often wind up paying a great deal more than you otherwise would need to. |
Originally Posted by Slasher1
(Post 10517358)
I think this is wholly incorrect; CX pilots don't mind putting in the work for adequate compensation.
Problem is CX wants to be able to put people on a string for POTENTIAL work -- 'on call' or 'standby' or whatever you want to call it -- and not pay for it. And also be able to switch around trips (without penalty) without any input from the operating pilot. As to minimize THEIR costs with no guarantee, compensation, or recourse by the crew it affects. This has served no one well. The company continues to collapse their own rosters and has no idea how to flow out or long term allocation of resources for maximum productivity at minimum cost. You have an hours driven process; not a days driven process. It's not a standard office job. Ideally the company pays for 900 hours per year (within FTL and contractural constraints). The major problem is there is no penalty for holding someone on a string (used or not) and for completely collapsing what should be a stable, planned, 'owned' roster. It's a one way street. In time, this breaks the assets you need to operate the machinery. And makes other leave for greener pastures. The net result is wild swings into overtime, unfit crew, increased costs, and decreased productivity. It's an old adage that some of the most expensive things are 'free' and that by being a cheap bastage you often wind up paying a great deal more than you otherwise would need to. |
Originally Posted by Pickuptruck
(Post 10517373)
I was referring to the guys on RA55 not happy with what’s out there for contract jobs. But if CX is such rubbish as you’re alluding to and so is everything else then maybe there’s nowhere in aviation in 2019 that some guys would be happy. |
Originally Posted by Slasher1
(Post 10517377)
i know many colleagues who have moved on and are in aviation in 2019. Without exception they ARE happy and none have regretted the decision. |
Originally Posted by ACMS
(Post 10516708)
It’s NOT all about the pay.......some of us don’t wish to be away from home for 2 or 3 weeks at a time...... it ain’t that simple unfortunately. |
Originally Posted by cxorcist
(Post 10517381)
I agree. I don’t know a single pilot who has left CX that regrets it. Is this just confirmation bias or reality? There’s no way to know for sure. My sense is that it’s a bit of both. Money isn’t everything; and once a pilot fully embraces the lifestyle options available at many other airlines, that fact becomes tangible. |
Freehills........Sure no worries, you want to payout my mortgage for me? Not all of us are multi millionaires mate from HK property. |
Originally Posted by Pickuptruck
(Post 10517330)
actually it is. 15 days on 15 days off for pretty average pay. Or 20 on 10 off for better or max cash is 48 on 12off. The problem is CX pilots want full time pay for minimal work. If none of those options suit then maybe doing something else at 55 is the best option. Surely guys looked at this before they elected to leave at 55? last time I got my calculator out 15 days was 2 weeks. so, some of us don’t want or can’t be away from HOME for that long....for **** money. ok. |
Originally Posted by cxorcist
(Post 10517381)
I agree. I don’t know a single pilot who has left CX that regrets it. Is this just confirmation bias or reality? There’s no way to know for sure. My sense is that it’s a bit of both. Money isn’t everything; and once a pilot fully embraces the lifestyle options available at many other airlines, that fact becomes tangible. I know one TC off the 777 that every time he sees a CX 777 kicks himself for leaving at 43 yo... life after CX for some isn’t all that fantastic.... |
Originally Posted by ACMS
(Post 10516708)
It’s NOT all about the pay.......some of us don’t wish to be away from home for 2 or 3 weeks at a time...... it ain’t that simple unfortunately. In my experience commuting is the problem. Just because it is technically possible ( barely mostly) doesn't mean it is a good long-term strategy. You can mess up any pilot job in the world with the decision to commute. |
Suffice to say, I suspect the vast majority of pilots who have left the dysfunctional madhouse that is CX are not regretting their decision. One or two...maybe, but there are always a few who never find career stability and satisfaction. No doubting that such a concept is now nothing but an illusion at Cathay. Nearly all the FO's and SO's i've flown with in the past 24 months have indicated a desire to be somewhere else. And when I say "nearly all", I mean that specifically. Another sign of an abjectly failed management.
|
So why do they stay then? And is that also the fault of Cathay? Every F/O and every S/O in the company has exactly the conditions of service he of she signed up for. |
Sam, that's the point...they aren't staying. Almost one a day at current rate. They barely have the same number on the seniority list today as a year ago...and they've hired about 350 cadets in that time. And yes, nearly everything negative about CX today IS the company's fault. I'd list them all, but this is a new computer and if I did so, it would be like ageing the keyboard by 5 years ! As for the current pilots having "exactly" the conditions they signed for, yes, and most have quickly realised it's unworkable in the long term, which is why most are quietly making plans to leave.
|
Let's assume for the sake of the argument your numbers are right. I don't understand why this is your or my problem. So they leave again, or think about leaving, or don't leave but would like to leave, or maybe they stay for now and leave in a few years etc etc. So what? |
Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong
(Post 10517602)
Let's assume for the sake of the argument your numbers are right. I don't understand why this is your or my problem. So they leave again, or think about leaving, or don't leave but would like to leave, or maybe they stay for now and leave in a few years etc etc. So what? Airline operations are not producing widgets (Coca Cola) in some Chinese factory. They are complex and dynamic. Western airlines have figured this out. Sadly, CX is where those airlines were about a generation (20-30 years) ago. The Management thinks it can simply cut its way to profitability. Wrong! They need to provide VALUE for both the customers AND the employees!!! Right now, they are doing neither in most cases. |
Have any of you ever worked for an airline that uses strict seniority which most here only quote when beneficial to them would know that many airlines with strict seniority have increased their retirement age. The younger generation in those airlines didn't complain as they too get to retire at 65 if they so wish.
|
Originally Posted by Samsonite
(Post 10517911)
Have any of you ever worked for an airline that uses strict seniority which most here only quote when beneficial to them would know that many airlines with strict seniority have increased their retirement age. The younger generation in those airlines didn't complain as they too get to retire at 65 if they so wish.
ICAO being lobbied by airlines, Airbus, Boeing, etc to make their first adjustment to retirement age since 2006. |
Originally Posted by Progress Wanchai
(Post 10518051)
Not just other airlines. ICAO being lobbied by airlines, Airbus, Boeing, etc to make their first adjustment to retirement age since 2006. |
Originally Posted by Progress Wanchai
(Post 10518051)
Not just other airlines. ICAO being lobbied by airlines, Airbus, Boeing, etc to make their first adjustment to retirement age since 2006. Right but you have never worked at an airline with 4 pay scales based on different life expectations. |
Originally Posted by Air Profit
(Post 10517534)
Suffice to say, I suspect the vast majority of pilots who have left the dysfunctional madhouse that is CX are not regretting their decision. One or two...maybe, but there are always a few who never find career stability and satisfaction. No doubting that such a concept is now nothing but an illusion at Cathay. Nearly all the FO's and SO's i've flown with in the past 24 months have indicated a desire to be somewhere else. And when I say "nearly all", I mean that specifically. Another sign of an abjectly failed management.
The fact is for all the “everyone I flew with is leaving” the numbers actually going are tiny. Yes it might have shot up a bit late last year and earlier this year but now it’s back where it’s been for the last 20 years. No surprise the company isn’t offering much in the pay talks. |
...."the numbers leaving are tiny"... You call over 300 a year "tiny". Ok, there is a place for you in management.
|
Originally Posted by Air Profit
(Post 10519632)
...."the numbers leaving are tiny"... You call over 300 a year "tiny". Ok, there is a place for you in management.
We’re at 3% The burning desire everyone has to believe lots are leaving month after month and the company is going to offer massive payrises as a result is delusional. Facts vs la-la land. Great for the company though, the deluded amongst us do nothing for the next 10 years, hanging onto CC/TB waiting for that pay offer. |
2019 will be the year of the reality check. For 53% of the people in the UK and the 80% plus in CX that like to reject pay offers because they think they have leverage. Sadly, in both cases the damage is done. |
"The product, culture, and ultimately profits (losses) of the airline become detached from those providing them. The intangible efforts trend towards zero, and all that is left is a zombie workforce churning out a marginal product, a negative culture, and very likely resulting in low or no profits."
Possibly the best description of the modern airline business world-wide I've seen...................... It's what you get when barriers to entry are low and you give the customer exactly what they want |
I really wonder if I work in the same airline. What are you guys complaining about all day? I look at my earnings last year, the hours flown, the number of days off, the savings I could made, gain of my real estate, just fine really. More than fine.Excellent actually. I can't even remember a bad line check, I used business class ID90 multiple times, never got bumped off, my kids in excellent and mostly paid-for schools, I had 42 days of leave, the aircraft I operated were in good shape, new destinations, more a/c on order, etc etc I don't get it. |
Good for you Sam. I'm sure that is just what most of the pilots at CX are experiencing. It's nirvana here.
|
What is it that YOU find so intolerable? You, as I presume, a B scale captain with housing like me. What is it that makes life so miserable here that you complain since years now. Give me five points. Five hard facts that show the world how unfair, how bad it is here. |
I'll answer that:
1) effective lack of control of your life 2) constant erosion of pay and benefits (below average pay raises/no pay raises) 3) extortionate staff travel costs (the newly hired pilots can't even afford to travel in J due cost) 4) if you are on the "wrong" fleet, you might as well be working for a different airline 5) unaccountable management ....you only wanted 5, could go on and on. |
Originally Posted by Apple Tree Yard
(Post 10519806)
I'll answer that:
1) effective lack of control of your life 2) constant erosion of pay and benefits (below average pay raises/no pay raises) 3) extortionate staff travel costs (the newly hired pilots can't even afford to travel in J due cost) 4) if you are on the "wrong" fleet, you might as well be working for a different airline 5) unaccountable management ....you only wanted 5, could go on and on. Exactly what I thought, you can't name anything real or tangible. 1) How so? You have two or three times more days off than any regular employee in any other industry. What do you mean? Roster changes? Really? 2) You made what last year, 300 k USD after tax? 3) 4 sectors ID 90 business class for almost free for you and your familiy. And regular ID90 is not affordable or good enough for you? Please leave others out, only personal experience 4) I am on the "wrong" fleet. What exactly is wrong with 500 hours block per year and 200 plus days off??? 5) What does that even mean? You got nothing accountable, just what I expected. |
Cxorcist? Air Profit? Anyone? Facts only! |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 04:03. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.