That made me chuckle, al-be-it briefly.

You can still self certify for up to three days, 1 day of reserve should be OK.

Any new info regarding more SO's being upgraded instead of more DEFOs? Apparently they are not getting the DEFO numbers hoped for.

Which is a MANUAL input to what is supposed to be computer driven.

...which I will then input a MANUAL correction to remove, if you know what I mean :E

haha just listened to a 3 year s/o whine that this very day he discovered that his upgrade now wont happen til 2021.....another 3 years of having no hours count towards ****....the p2X rating means nothing ....its not a rating your experience is nothing that is tradeable....I felt sad for a second then that moment passed....he was the one said he wanted the shiny jet future....just didnt realize till right then what he got himself into.....what a moment watching some realize what they have bought into this **** outfit.

That makes 6 years as an SO and the CX bond for cadets is 7 years. Correct me if I'm wrong but that means 6 years on rubbish pay and useless hours, then probably 5 more years to gain some significant flying hours (considering the amount of two stripers I've seen acting as Relief pilot and not actually performing takeoff and landings), meaning that it would be upwards of 11 years before a young joiner can have some prospects of jumping ship and aiming for a better life elsewhere on the bottom of the seniority list of another airline? The maths just don't add up... when you fly A319s with some European LCCs you'd be sitting comfortably in the Left seat by then.

Many hundreds more just like him. The worst part is that these guys believe the office workers in HR over what they read here. Surely they know better deep down, but the hope springs eternal. Shiny jets, big money in HK! Reality is pollution covered jets (and lungs) and the most expensive city in the world, but they just won’t listen. Idiots!!!

The ignorance of youth. Remember they know everything.
Just goes to show, you can not help stupid.

It’s like getting a job paying $20-25 USD an hour and thinking you’re making big bucks because grew up in Kansas. The only catch is that the job is in NYC, and $25 an hour there has a person living like a pauper.

Same in HK! Are you listening all you starry eyed boys and girls? The local CX package in HK has you living like a pauper, and no, you have zero chance of ever getting a base in your home countries. Bases are for expensive, expat pilots. You are cheap! Your place is in HK.

I don’t know if bases will ever open again, but if they do, it will only be to get the expats out of HK. After that, they’ll be closed up so tight it would take an act of God to open them again.

Correct. Thank you. Edited.

And then after 11 years some manager decide that he don’t like something he miss read on your file and Cat D you. You will not get the opportunity to explain or defend yourself.
And by then it will be to late to start somewhere else.

And let’s face it the HR people know ALL about airline ops !!!! Not
That generic ‘people mover’ degree isn’t worth the parchment it’s written on yet they excel at making folks miserable.

Was chatting with a NJer yesterday and informing him that his command is probably 15-20 years off. His reply was that that timeframe is reasonable for a legacy carrier. To which I replied, CX is NOT a legacy carrier.

Nothing about CX is “legacy” except for its history. CX is a shell of its former self, no better than any number of Asian carriers on the passenger side and most like an ACMI carrier (Atlas/Polar/Southern) on the cargo side. CX is a far cry from AA, AC, DL, or UA. Nowhere close to a FedEx or UPS. Doesn’t treat its emplyees nearly as well as Southwest. Has none of the prestige or career paths of SQ, QF, BA, LH, or AF/KLM. In short, CX is just another crappy contract job in Asia. Any $ allure is completely negated by the cost of living in HK, but try explaining that to someone in their twenties or early thirties working regional or LCC jobs...

This is the lie WE are up against.

So, 15-20 years BEFORE becoming a captain. Dealing with CX management rubbish, and constant cuts to your pay and benefits. Wow, that sounds like a GREAT career decision. Don't worry cxorcist, most people aren't even turning up for the interviews anymore. Additionally, just spoke to a DEFO, and he told me he's leaving next month as he can't stand anything about CX, it's culture and certainly not its management.

Just a thought. Trainers with a DEFO they too get disillusioned as the trainee tells them the lies that brought them to cx and how quick they wish to leave. Why bother explaining and waisting your breath? Time To Weep.

I think 15-20 years to command for new hires is very optimistic. There are approx. 230 2007 pilot hires on the seniority list. I believe none of those are on command course. Considering 10 command courses this year and who knows how many in the coming years the math is quite simple. If we consider around 80 command courses a year (from 2019 on) this would result in that an early 2007 hire can expect now a command course at around 11.5 - 12. 5 years and a late 2007 hire can potentially look at 15.5 years to command.

This does not take all the CAT A'd pilots into account who deferred their command course and who are waiting for a B777 course.

I believe there were no new hires in 2009 and only a limited amount in 2010. So time to command for 2008 hires would increase, worst case up to 18 years, while 2010 hires see a decrease in time to command and from then on time to command would increase again.
Also to consider is that CX hired (since approx. 2005) more pilots per year then offering command courses per year. Sometimes by a factor of four if taken an average of 80 command courses per year into account.

But maybe I am wrong and CX is able to offer 200 command courses per year and time to command will come down. :}

I think your math is quite accurate. I have looked at this big hiring cluster from 2006-2008. It’s massive, and they haven’t offered a single 2007 hire a course, to my knowledge anyways. Late 2007 and 2008 hires are looking at several more years in the right seat.

Also, many more senior FOs whom have bypassed command waiting for a 777 course or other personal reasons are taking courses now on the Airbus. With the all the A350s coming, the fleet isn’t nearly as bad as it once was. Yet, if you’re a captain stuck on the 747, tough luck! Didn’t you know you were hired by Connie Pacific?

GTC58
 

We have averaged 200 recruits pa for last 8 years including this year's plan. We have averaged 65 commands pa for last 8 years including this year's plan.


DEFOs

Rumours abound about SAA pilots coming here. For any budding DEFOs regardless of where you come from, please be aware of a couple of facts. I don't want to comment on the politics/acceptance of taking the job, just the harsh reality of it - in terms of roster/lifestyle and basings.


YOU WILL BE GETTING THE WORST ROSTERS for at least 5-8 years after getting here because you will be, and will remain, the most junior FOs bidding for roster choices. There will be somewhere between 550-800 SOs senior to you who will be upgraded over that time period. Every SO that upgrades to FO is senior to you in terms of roster bidding/bases/lifestyle choices.

If you are told you will likely get a basing - you are being misled. There are 100s and 100s of pilots who want bases. They will all be senior to you.

Time to upgrade was 10.5 years - it will blow out to 15+++ years due to the bulge of recruits over the last 10 years. I was told time to command was 3-4 years, but might blow out to 6-7 years. I got mine in 9 years.



So whether you take the job or not - at least be aware of what will really happen and not the 'half truths' you might be told in the recruitment process.

PM me if you want more details

Folks, the bottom 19 CNs are 2007 hires.

Lets not get too excited here.

With 174 FOs to go in 2007 the numbers posted above are spot on.

2007 and 2008 were big hiring years with over 400 guys joining CX.

So in 2020 the most junior Captain will be a 2007 hire. And with another 200 guys from the 2008 class the last one should be upgrade by 2023. Rounding out the time to command at 15 years. What a future to look forward to. You can only pray there will be a ton of guys cat D'd and guys refusing to come off their base. Even with significant expansion the time will not come down by much.

Warning to DEFOs. Your future here is not bright. I hope you like flying through the night to India.

P.s. Your DFO loves to say how South Africans are the Phillippenos of aviation. That should say it all.

That good old DFO of ours, always with just the right thing to say to boost morale. I wonder what this weeks quote from Mao will be....

Speaking of South Africans, it seems the DFO's only hope is to turn CX into a satellite operation of SAA. If the company goes ahead with a JNB base, with direct entry captains, that should be the final straw in any other CX pilots hopes that there can ever be a proper career or stable conditions to base your hopes and those of your families on. If she makes this move (and I suspect she will, as she is ignorant of 'unintended consequence'), then there is no longer any reason to stay. Take advantage of the best hiring market in generations. At the very least, escape from this most toxic of environments. And btw, if any of my former C and T colleagues continue with this charade and help train the very people who will be used to undermine their own careers, then deserve all the opprobrium that will come their way. There is no longer any excuse at that point.

I was saying this back when Traf was a trainer, and I say it to every C&Ter every chance I get. It’s beyond ludicrous. I want to train too but not until we are all on the same contract, and it sure as hell isnt going to be local terms.

Some STCs are only too happy to tell you that they are making 300-400K a month due to rostered overtime.

On a more positive note, several senior TCC members have refused to upgrade to STC while there is any CC underway. Further, a few of them I have spoken with have confirmed they will resign immediately if there is any entry of DEC in the company.

I hope that is true. I am doubtful of anything coming from the CX pilot crowd. If one pilot is allowed under this scheme into our cockpits. Than we have truly lost.

I doubt it is true. Nothing happened when housing was about to be cancelled. Everyone will just sit on the sidelines waiting for something to happen/telling SOs to leave

TurningFinal

You are of course wrong. Something did happen, that's why the ARAPA threat went away (for the time being). It's the threat that brings results. The threat was there, ask your training mates.

They may tell you.
.....Whether you believe it is a 'different story'.

Like most things at Cathay Pacific and the internet, until you do your own research and obtain proof, take it with 'a grain of salt'.

Any trainer who remains in training is a part of the problem. This is a voluntary position you are not required to stay in training. Anyone who does so is doing it for selfish reasons only. Trainers are profiting off of the membership and the training ban.

A trainer should be someone who is respected amongst the pilot body. Who upholds the values of the collective group. Wen your employer is continuously doing anything they can to destroy your benifits you should realize that you are in effect condoning this behavior. What makes you think you are so special? Will you be able to make a little side deal for yourself preserving your pay, housing, other benifits?.

Deplorable.

Lower than low is those guys taking up a training position on a base. You will never be invited out for dinner and drinks, you will not get anything other than required sop from me. Enjoy your layover.

The funny (or not!) thing is, I remember Anna saying a year or so ago that she was looking to 'reward the trainers' for their efforts. All I see they received was NO 13th month, and a threat to their housing for them and their families. Come on guys/girls, where do your real interests lie, with your professional colleagues, or with a group of pilot hating managers who are actually attempting to harm you and your families? It's time to give up your delusions. If one SA pilot arrives on anything other than 'bottom of seniority list' terms IN HK, then you must resign. Otherwise, you are no better than the people upstairs who are harming the rest of us. You NEED to think about this, then act. Now.

Yes, "I'll quit if they touch the training pay, the housing allowance, etc etc etc......." How many have???

She did. She gave them that Instagram idiot to train and possibly get their faces out there.

Several have in fact refused. Unfortunately, currently there are four wannabe STCs upgrading by flying with Dragon trainers. I'll let you figure out the fleet by yourself.

CC/TB not far off at Dragon.

name and shame, these people having been getting away with far too much. Im sure the union will be all over it.....

Warning regarding S/O time.
 

I took an interest in this thread after doing a recruitment sim-assessment on a CX S/O recently at my current company. Long story short, this individual’s performance in the sim was so poor that the assessment was cut short. I’m not sure if nerves played a part (probably) but the overall performance was below all my expectations of even modest handling skills.

Word of warning from the ‘real world’: Pilots that join an airline on an S/O deal where you don’t touch the controls for years will eventually become unemployable at any other airline. Beware of this career trap. Nothing will ever beat hands-on experience on smaller aircraft as you start off your career.

Sage advice. I think CX SOs get so enamored with the (not-so) shiny jets that they ignore the obvious downsides, this being but one example. Keep in mind, time to JFO just ballooned out to 5-6 years, and that’s no exaggeration. 5-6 years with no hands on time except for sims.

Compound that with the cost of living in HK and the fact that SO/JFOs scrape the bottom of the pay scales and HKPA for the better part of a decade, and the picture is pretty grim. I’m not the most empathetic of chaps, but I feel truly sorry for CX SOs. They have chosen to believe the lies from CX, and most are stuck paying the price for many years under the most venal, malicious, and incompetent airline management in the world. It’s truly a sad state of affairs at CX. The persistent pollution in Hong Kong is but a metaphor for a CX career.

I've been following all the current CX topics and am amazed by the current situation (as employees experience it) at Cathay.
I've also been invited to HK for the assessment for SO.

Working at Cathay Pacific and living in HK has always seemed amazing to me and my goal in aviation is to fly long haul eventually.

Recently I've passed an assessment for a short haul jet carrier in Europe, incl type rating and benefits as insurance, housing allowance during training etc.

I'm now at an age of beginning 30's and have one year commercial experience on a turboprop, so about 800hr TT.
I live in Europe, so joining the short haul carrier in Europe will allow me to be back at home in 2 hours through their network with staff travel.

If I pass the assessment at CX, it's going to be a tough decision for me.

I can understand that (also due to my age) joining the short haul carrier and building jet hours as an FO would be a better career option.
I just can't stop thinking about flying long haul at Cathay, even though the transition to FO may be 5 - 6 years as my goal in aviation eventually is to fly long haul.

I would appreciate it if anybody could share some experience with me.

You will sit as an SO for 5-6 years, logging NO time. You will have effectively crippled your career just when you had the chance to actually make yourself into an airline pilot. Further, you will be stuck living like a rat in a barely livable space (300 sq/ft) paying about $3000 usd /mo for that. Don't even get me started on the non-existent staff travel, appalling medical, joke of a retirement. Add to that the fact that you will work for the worst airline management in the industry, one that belittles you, lies to you, cheats you, steals from you and basically ensures that every day you are here you will regret. Other than that, come on in, the water's lovely! Take the job close to home, actually FLY airplanes and be grateful you dodged the bullet. (oh, and as for flying long-haul, that particular desire will be crushed out of you very quickly at CX, with the appalling rosters and minimum time layovers, crappy hotels and inadequate allowances. You will very quickly be too fatigued to care).