Time to upgrade to FO and CN at Cathay
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Time to upgrade to FO and CN at Cathay
I have started this thread simply to give what is likely to be a more accurate guide to upgrading to First Officer and then Captain at CX.
The first thing to watch out for – being told what the “current” time to upgrade/command is. That only applies to those that joined 4 or 11 years ago. Currently those being upgraded to First Officer joined 3- 4 years ago. Those on Command course joined around 11 years ago.
We have recruited just under 2,000 pilots in the last 11 years and we have only exceeded 100 command courses/year on one occasion so far. We have recruited 700 in the last three years.
We have over 500 Second Officers now and by years end we expect to have almost 800 with only 10 SOs to be upgraded to FO this year. (Due to new Rostering policies they now need a lot more SOs and a lot fewer FOs)
I’ve used actual figures from 2011-2017 inclusive and used CX projections for 2018.
Based on that, a new joiner with DOJ 31/12/18 would upgrade to FO 6.6 years and to Captain in around 30.3 years. Now that is using an average rate for a, presumably, growing airline. I say presumably as we have actually remained the same size for the last three years.
If I ‘assume’ we will grow again at the same rate we did for the previous two decades then time to FO reduces to just over five years and time to command reduces to 17 years. My assumption of growth rate is OPTIMISTIC given the management plan for 2018-20 and the current industrial impasse in regards to the training ban. In other words – it will probably be longer than 5/17 years.
So you may be told upgrade to FO is 3 years and command time is 10.5 years – which it WAS for those that joined in 2007 and 2014. If you are planning on a career here – plan on 5-6 years as an SO. Plan on 17+ years till command(regardless of whether you join as an FO or SO)
(By the way – top increment on SO scale is reached after three years service. For a First Officer it is after about 13 years. )
The first thing to watch out for – being told what the “current” time to upgrade/command is. That only applies to those that joined 4 or 11 years ago. Currently those being upgraded to First Officer joined 3- 4 years ago. Those on Command course joined around 11 years ago.
We have recruited just under 2,000 pilots in the last 11 years and we have only exceeded 100 command courses/year on one occasion so far. We have recruited 700 in the last three years.
We have over 500 Second Officers now and by years end we expect to have almost 800 with only 10 SOs to be upgraded to FO this year. (Due to new Rostering policies they now need a lot more SOs and a lot fewer FOs)
I’ve used actual figures from 2011-2017 inclusive and used CX projections for 2018.
Based on that, a new joiner with DOJ 31/12/18 would upgrade to FO 6.6 years and to Captain in around 30.3 years. Now that is using an average rate for a, presumably, growing airline. I say presumably as we have actually remained the same size for the last three years.
If I ‘assume’ we will grow again at the same rate we did for the previous two decades then time to FO reduces to just over five years and time to command reduces to 17 years. My assumption of growth rate is OPTIMISTIC given the management plan for 2018-20 and the current industrial impasse in regards to the training ban. In other words – it will probably be longer than 5/17 years.
So you may be told upgrade to FO is 3 years and command time is 10.5 years – which it WAS for those that joined in 2007 and 2014. If you are planning on a career here – plan on 5-6 years as an SO. Plan on 17+ years till command(regardless of whether you join as an FO or SO)
(By the way – top increment on SO scale is reached after three years service. For a First Officer it is after about 13 years. )
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Good info very accurate I would say, only thing you don’t mention and it’s probably just because it’s hard to now the numbers is the ever increasing resignations.
Good job otherwise.
Good job otherwise.
think he was referring to 3yrs to Fo joining in 2013
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Triple7driver
No! Not at all! If you want an accurate idea for current employees just post on the thread in AOA forums or PM here or there!
Broke idiot - in a way the data is reflective of the resignations in that command and FO upgrade plans account for past CN and FO departures. The current high resignation rate is predominantly from lower ranks so not too much distortion of my time to command estimates. However I have assumed a growth rate starting from late this year- if it doesn’t grow due resignations time to upgrade will stretch out!
We are losing a lot of CNs but a lot due retirement- that was foreseeable. So most of the unforeseen resignations are from the FO/SO ranks
Current employees
The above does not mean anyone joining before the end of this year will have 3-4/10.5 years to FO/Command. If you joined in say, late 2010, your time to command would be about 14.5 years(ie mid 2025) based on the 2018 plan and assuming back to long term growth from the end of this year. Remember, we have actually not grown for the last three years.
No! Not at all! If you want an accurate idea for current employees just post on the thread in AOA forums or PM here or there!
Broke idiot - in a way the data is reflective of the resignations in that command and FO upgrade plans account for past CN and FO departures. The current high resignation rate is predominantly from lower ranks so not too much distortion of my time to command estimates. However I have assumed a growth rate starting from late this year- if it doesn’t grow due resignations time to upgrade will stretch out!
We are losing a lot of CNs but a lot due retirement- that was foreseeable. So most of the unforeseen resignations are from the FO/SO ranks
Current employees
The above does not mean anyone joining before the end of this year will have 3-4/10.5 years to FO/Command. If you joined in say, late 2010, your time to command would be about 14.5 years(ie mid 2025) based on the 2018 plan and assuming back to long term growth from the end of this year. Remember, we have actually not grown for the last three years.
Last edited by Numero Crunchero; 1st Mar 2018 at 13:53. Reason: clarity!
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So 30 years for a CX command is optimistic. The average pilot joining CX now will never hold a CX command.
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Numero Crunchero
Wannabe chiming in here.. just out of interest if one does not qualify as a JFO after all those years of babysitting the autopilot do they get to continue as an SO or do they get fired? cheers
Wannabe chiming in here.. just out of interest if one does not qualify as a JFO after all those years of babysitting the autopilot do they get to continue as an SO or do they get fired? cheers
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I’m not NC, but to answer your question about “professional second officers”, no, CX does not continue employment if the SO candidate fails to upgrade.
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The only time SOs get to babysit the autopilot is if they are seated with a captain and said captain is operating the sector as PM and said captain decides he wants to continue with the radio and flight plan paperwork.
So expect to touch the autopilot maybe once a month, if that, for half a decade as said above.
So expect to touch the autopilot maybe once a month, if that, for half a decade as said above.
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The only time SOs get to babysit the autopilot is if they are seated with a captain and said captain is operating the sector as PM and said captain decides he wants to continue with the radio and flight plan paperwork.
So expect to touch the autopilot maybe once a month, if that, for half a decade as said above.
So expect to touch the autopilot maybe once a month, if that, for half a decade as said above.
Gotta thank you all for providing vital information which the typical starry-eyed wannabe would otherwise not know!
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Warm body. Effectively that is all they need an SO for (not meaning to be condescending, just realistic as to how CX management see most of you). They are happy to wasted upwards of 5 years of your productive pilot life. Anyone coming here as an SO now is effectively wasting a large percentage of their career potential. Harsh, but true nonetheless.
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CXs tactic is basically to get the rusty seniority handcuffs onto you with shiny jets, just enough pay and useless hours for the time as SO. By the time you're ready to leave you'll have lost 7 years minimum now.
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Really?!?
What ever happened to being a pilot?
The career path at Cathay consists of years watching someone else fly, a compressed conversion course followed by 80 (or so) sectors where you actually get to fly. If you don't pass - you're fired. If you do pass, you get to operate 24 sectors a year - probably down closer 12 (1/mth) as Relief.
Find a Company and learn to fly. It won't happen in Hong Kong. Those days are long gone.
What ever happened to being a pilot?
The career path at Cathay consists of years watching someone else fly, a compressed conversion course followed by 80 (or so) sectors where you actually get to fly. If you don't pass - you're fired. If you do pass, you get to operate 24 sectors a year - probably down closer 12 (1/mth) as Relief.
Find a Company and learn to fly. It won't happen in Hong Kong. Those days are long gone.
So tell me, how long to widebody FO at Qantas?
Or Command.
Home country versus expat, narrow body versus widebody - who cares.
Look at your potential position say 10 years (married with children), then 20 years, then 30 years (kids left home) down the track and see what is an acceptable option.
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Really?!?
What ever happened to being a pilot?
What ever happened to being a pilot?
For those of you that actually want to be pilots and fly, CX is not the place. You will be far happier and ultimately more competent if you join a company where you will get plenty of hands-on flying.
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These are the confirmed numbers of who has left since October 2017.
37 Captains (7 from bellow 500 senirotiy, who probably hit 65)
11 Fo's
10 So's
Total 57
The list is not 100% accurate with regards to the SO's and Fo's as the list with DEFO messes up the numbers.
This does not include the pilots that have given notice, these are the ones that have phsically left the building.
37 Captains (7 from bellow 500 senirotiy, who probably hit 65)
11 Fo's
10 So's
Total 57
The list is not 100% accurate with regards to the SO's and Fo's as the list with DEFO messes up the numbers.
This does not include the pilots that have given notice, these are the ones that have phsically left the building.
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Will be interesting to see how many are serving our their three month notice from the beginning of the year. The numbers are starting to add up. Those that have left have already secured their seniority numbers at their new carriers.