The New deal
 

Not really great but will we get any better? Too many caveats and "visit later" issues. Sneaking in "R" permanently now is no good but then again, no matter what, you can always call in unfit. The Reserve thing really bothers me as I hate Reserve and do not think it should be for everyone all the time. They abuse it a lot. The J/F class thing again is worded poorly.

I would like to have the level 1/2/3 sickness policy rescinded before we vote. I think we give up more than we get personally and allow them to do pretty much whatever they want. As in the past, agreements always get violated and we can file grievances, which get turned down, or file lawsuits which drain resources.

If the GC says yes then I guess I will say yes. I am not sure what I would do on my own but probably no. We know what housing will look like in the next few years. I also would like the pass travel system fixed and the priority system fixed. Again, CC was about RPs, NOT anything else. I thank the GC and NC and President but think we may be getting duped UHGAIN!

I am not sure what will happen if it gets voted down but like RP 04 and RP 07, somehow it will pass! For what it's worth, talking to colleagues around the world, nothing is perfect and we are about level in some respects, behind in some and ahead in a few.

In summary, The "R" system is bad, still 30 days. The Pass travel system is still atrocious. Housing is being eroded. The RPs still gives the company a lot of leeway. The pay rise, including; day off pay and swaps is low. The new fangled computer bid system will be meaningless as they will still be able to "adjust" your roster if we sign the deal. The rest is just words.

Discuss and please lets keep it civilized.:ok:
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My personal "wish list" includes a TRIP rig and a DUTY rig.
The split duty, TPE and MNL stuff should be compensated at a minimum of 8 hrs IMHO.
Reserve should be down the seniority. JFO and JR CN should do the reserve blocks. I've paid my dues for a stable roster.
The rest - meh.

At first I was thinking, "ok, we've been in industrial action 18 months, and we've now got a contract". Now, I am in agreement with Dan Buster: if it doesn't address ALL the issues, if it still contains loose language, if it pits one group against the other, then I am not signing. Happy to NOT join training, happy to keep going with CC until we DO receive a contract that is worthy of our commitment to the long term success of the airline. If all it does is push us further away from achieving proper industry standard terms and conditions, then our management need to be shown that that is not acceptable. I'll review it when it is presented. Then i'll make my decision.

We all know that if it is voted down, the company will impose it, and that will be that.

Oval3Holer.

Perfect.
The brush wingers get their HKPA.
The company loses all leverage.
We continue industrial action for a decent 21st century rostering system and legal action against RP15 as per the members initial mandate.

Ja PERFECT, we keep our leverage as they continue to find it hard to train recruit and grow.
Stay professional, focused & unified in our resolve to up route the mind less bulling from the 9th floor and above.

Way to many loose words which will with certainly be abused from now until 2019.

If we let our foot off the pedal now and succum to this we toast.
When you decide to over take, keep the pressure on the gas till you well clear.

We are far from out of the woods and their empty promises. This trive has so many holes. It's no wonder the GC was trying its best and holding it off in vain to try improve the wording. All while Crispy Creams were sold out, from 9th floor jubilation.

Please guys we are professionals, lets show we deserve better.

90% + NO. While supporting the AOA and Union and fellow members in our resolve.

Ingore those many management trolls coming on here with XYZ fallacies ..

Sorry but it's just not good enough. Thank you to our negotiators that put so much effort into this, and I'm sure it was the best deal you could get at this time, but that still doesn't mean it's acceptable. We have given up so much to get here, lets not give it all away now on a deal that's not worthy.

It's a NO from me. A few minor gains but the wording is far to loose. This was never about money but unfortunately Cx have used it to try and swing the vote. Considering we have had two big hits this year with the KA date of joining for staff travel and Absence Management Program imposed on us it is all rather disappointing.
Many thanks to the negotiating committee. It can't have been easy. Stay the course !!

The Cav

At first glance, its focused on HKPA.... No surprise! That alone will get a big majority of votes.... half way there already!


The rest is very wishy washy. Or, meh!


As usual small gains for a big cost. ( no surprise again)


I think I can hear the fat lady singing regardless of those saying NO on this forum.


I think most will say YES, because they cant be bothered any more. YES, because its not that bad and they just want it all over. YES because how many times can you say NO.


If NO is the result will there be repercussions..... YES, big time! Will you wish you said YES.... probably.


If YES is the result will there be repercussions.... YES, maybe not as much as saying NO, but probably. Will you wonder what will have happened if the result was NO...... probably.


Good Luck! :confused:

Par for the course.

An improvement (but far short of what it should be) for the majority.

The rest is a pittance of what has been taken away or promised long ago.

A sincere thanks to the NC.

Not good enough, not by a long shot. When the TA barely gets past the GC by one vote, you have to man up and send them packing. This deal is a farce. I want to come out of CC and the TB as much as anybody, but this is not what we have been fighting for all this time. CX gets everything they want and need, and all they have to do is open their wallets a tiny bit. If you cadets fall for this, you are as dumb as all the expats accuse you of being, not that we are much better. The decay has to stop! This deal simply kicks the can down the road. You all know better!!!

95% of HKPA recipients will vote Yes to this deal. Based on current membership demographics, it will take 80% of non HKPA's to vote No. We are doomed!
Why the bloody hell did the GC/NC allow all these issues to be rolled into a single vote?

95%?

No, they won't. The majority I speak to don't want to vote yes, because it's accepting and giving credibility to a poor deal.

What the majority of people will do, however, is vote as per the GC recommendation.

I'm not a fan, though.

I agree with Dan and cxorcist. I'm voting 'no'.

If this deal was offered to us without the fight, I might think differently.

We will see....

This deal is a complete joke. There's absolutely no improvment to the big rostering issues that is meant to bring stability and control to our lives, especially for those on the grueling regional roster. It's as if rostering was a mere side issue to pay and HKPA. I knew was going to be bad, didn't realize it would be this bad.

Totally agree. This is more like an annual negotiation gone wrong rather than something that is meant to a significant improvement to our working conditions:

HKPA: The biggest benefit put in there as a bribe to get the rest of the rubbish over the line. Still very low ball and should not be considered. No indexing.

Rostering: Barely any improvement to an abominable Rostering Practices Agreement. Loose terms, free Reserve, free G days ('disruption')...need I go on. Total rubbish.

ARAPA: Where is the 25 years WITHOUT an end date of 2020? This was promised years ago and they are still failing to live up to their obligation.

Pay: What can I say? Less than forecast CPI. A formula to ensure we never actually reach CPI. Reduction in purchasing value to 2021, so a PAY DECREASE in real terms.

I respect the hard work of the NC, however, this is the best they could do with a cunning and nasty employer. It therefore behoves us to throw this back at the Company and say 'sorry, this is not an improvement that warrants our support. Therefore status quo with CC and TB until you come back with a sensible offer'.

Anyone who votes for this needs to go see a professional. If you are on HKPA and all you can see are a few $, then remember that for this minor gain you will be subjected to fatigue and loss of lifestyle rostering, plus a reduction in your salary purchasing value for many years to come. Is it worth that?

Just terrible. Definite NO from me.

You can take your deal and.....

Sometimes there is a good reason to value pride and integrity over short term gain. Certainly, I value both over threats and intimidation. It's a 'NO'. This deal is not worth my vote. The rest of us will have to make our own decisions, but this is not a worthy agreement. I appreciate all the efforts of the NC. I know that the end result is not their fault, but the fault of a senior management that does not respect or value their most valuable employees. I would rather establish a career elsewhere if I have to. I will not sell my entire future this cheaply.

I agree with Trafalgar on this, my integrity and value as a skilled professional is worth more than this so called deal.

Having looked at ALL the forums on this deal, I have not found a single positive comment. Not one!

Even the GC have not yet put out their recommendation, as I suspect they are finding it hard to get a majority to say yes.

Let's hope this is an indication of the way most members will vote. Make it a NO with the highest possible % so the company knows just how much we resent this deal!

Yes and lets hope the HKPA guys n gals don't get this thing voted in.

Before you tarnish the whole bunch and say they will, it would seem from the ones I've spoken to they are insulted by it and are very strong NO's.

There will be the ones who still live with mum and dad and will see the 4-6k extra a month as being the greatest deal in the world and jump at it, but I do not think they are the majority.... At least I hope they're not.

If my personal survey is any indication, this is going down with a huge NO vote. It deserves to be put in the bin and set on fire. I am quite happy to continue with CC, the TB and they can react in any way they want to. If they think getting draconian with an already angry, fed-up and demoralised workforce is the way forward....well, have at it. They will soon realise that it isn't only Great Britain that is happy to fight for what is right. Let's get this vote over with and then send the company a few demands of our own. And stuff their 'deadline'. As a matter of fact, we should schedule the vote for one day AFTER their dealine.

This company has treated their aircrew with contempt for over 20 years. It is time it stopped. The ONLY way to facilitate that is to stand up, united, against their machinations. We need to return this to the company with a RESOUNDING NO. There is no longer any place for inadequate work rules, arbitrary decisions, abuse of fatigue considerations, abuse of seniority, abuse of basic expectations of treatment and career expectations. Additionally, there is no place to allow the company to cheaply 'buy off' the HKPA pilots, who deserve a proper housing package. They too have families, hopes off financial security and an ability to properly plan for retirement. The company has chosen to waste this opportunity to reconcile with their most important group of employees. They will now receive the answer they deserve.

Let's face it. CX is now LCC flying toy plastic aeroplanes or clapped out 777's for mainland Chinese tourists. We are no longer a premium carrier with cutting edge premium services.
Plus we pay twice as much for fuel compared to the local competition.

Well....
I'm voting yes.
There are many improvements we have been looking for, for a long time.
And now we've got them.
I say lock it in, were in a declining market at the moment and the company has made a few expensive mistakes. It's a wonder they haven't pulled out of negotiations to begin with.

#1 yes vote, who's coming with me?

https://memecrunch.com/meme/1JOEF/wh....png?w=500&c=1

.....been looking for a photo of a lemming jumping off a cliff....:rolleyes:

Where is Curtain Rod? He is unusually Quiet?

You had me at "Well".
Actually, you didn't. This TA is their opening gambit. There's more, and I believe we're obligated to find it. Die standing or live on your knees.

If the "mangers" (sic) want to stop the hemorrhaging (crew, standards, enthusiasm, money) then make this a company to be proud of, an industry leader, not a cheap Chinese knockoff.

NFW.

#2 voting yes. Improvements are locked in. With uncertain times ahead and LCC nibbling at our heals to not vote yes would just be gambling.

Oasis, at first I was a no then I read it again and became maybe. Now I am definitely a NO!

It does give the company too much. Reserve for free is simply unacceptable especially with the abuse of it. We still need to fix staff travel especially with priority.

I think that even if it gets voted in, more will leave and like a lot of places, terms and conditions will dictate. The package simply isn't good enough and this place is so toxic now that moving on just to get away from the crazy girlfriend is all anyone needs.

Can we get more, Yes, we can. It honestly would not take much to tweak the package. The AOA and the company are at a crossroad. I am a bit surprised the AOA left with this package as rostering, the biggest component AND the reason for CC, is STILL abysmal.

If we sign this deal we also accept an attack on housing so in actual fact it MUST BE NO!!!

The wording about training, promoting training and accepting training at other carriers in addition to no CC for three years is a biggie too.

All our efforts get washed away and CC would have been in vain. Members have been kicked out because of CC and the AOA is just going to pass this package on to us? WTF! We said RPs only nothing else during negotiations. The membership was not even asked if negotiating a complete package is ok. Does that not in fact go against CC??? I, again, thank the GC, NC and President but you all have sum splainin' to du. So, if in fact it is ok, you should let everone back in and let them vote. Why you ask, because it will send a bigger message to the company as more will be represented. It will show strength and unity and that message is the biggest as a group we can send. If we can let bygones be bygones and negotiate a complete package then we should also let bygones be bygones with some recently departed members. It just sends a mixed or poor message is all.

Ok ok, I'm finished.

I think I am pretty certain who the blind moles are. If life here is so bad, well buddy there is an easy way out - b......er off. Stop making life a misery. This is a fair deal, well negotiated by the committee. If you think you will get better I'd like a pipe of what you're smoking.

There is nothing there to vote on!
A pay increase that might or might not happen!
HKPA that will require 18years before you will reach $38K..20 if you want $40K.
A 25-year housing deal that needs a trial or will last only 2 years more...what is there to trail?
More O days!
More Reserve days but in smaller packages!
No duty after a LRO-ULRO...as if I was even going to accept a duty after one.
Reserve will be as close as possible to your original changed duty...24 hours is considered close enough I guess!
The possibility to use the 90% ESF school fees for overseas boarding...which costs twice as much of the ESF fees!
No change to staff travel and Pri 4 instead of Pri 11 standby!

The only thing that has improved is the HDP multiplier for the 3 man LRO, and them having more possibilities to extend the 3 man ops to other flights.

Shortly2. Hmmm....so you 'have an idea' who's who...? Well, I have a pretty good idea who you are as well: Only twelve posts...and this one an aggressive swipe at those who would deign to disagree with the edicts from on high. You are obviously management and the panic shows. People aren't interested in being dictated to anymore. If we don't get a decent, fair contract which produces some work stability and a fair opportunity for a decent and financially rewarding career, most of us are resolved to stick with CC and the TB as long as it takes. As a matter of fact, even after a deal is signed I see little reason to change the way I am working. Take your vitriol and shove off. We will decide based on the facts which way to vote. So far, it falls FAR short of anything worth giving up the leverage and solidarity we currently enjoy. If the company wants to act in an impetuous manner, let them. If they think they have problems with the operation now, just try beating us with a bigger stick and see how much more trouble they will end up dealing with. To close, one single word. No.

Just to be clear:

A sub-inflation pay rise is NOT a pay rise...

Unless some of us here think that the CPI will be less than 2.5% next year?
Hey, great, with any luck, the Brexit triggers another global downturn and we do beat inflation...
Minus the forced unpaid leave we'll have to take because the company will tell us they're bleeding to death, of course.

Yonosoy. Just to be clear, then can put me on 'leave' all they want. Me accepting no pay for it will not happen. SLS acceptance again....not in this lifetime.

That's great, but you're assuming they'll ask this time...

Trafalgar, lol me management what a great joke. Only 12 posts - mainly disinterest in your blitherings.

Aaahhhh the old "if you not happy then leave.." comments again. Just continually take it up the ass, accept eroding conditions, and make oneself believe that it's ok. No wonder with each generation the working class becoming dumber and dumber.

shortly2. If you are not management......you should be. You SERIOUSLY believe this is a 'good deal'...? Psychosis on display.