The same old four or so rabid pit bulls calling for a big NO. Well actually Nelson I do think it is a reasonably fair deal negotiated in good faith by both sides.. Contrary to other posts many of my compatriots are going to vote yes. Gosh what will you complainers have to do when the majority disagree with you?

Guys, come on now, keep it civil. Let's not ruin our resolve by attacking each other. That is exactly what the company wants right now-DIVISION. Again, the AOA signed off on this to be presented and voted on. Some will view it as an ok deal and everyone is entitled to their opinion. So please, let's keep it civil and let the deal speak for itself.

Btw, I don't says Gals because I bet no "Gals" look at this.

Never ceases to amaze me the stupidity and naivety of some people. Rushing an agreement and a vote and using bribery to ensure a more succesful outcome isn't negotiating in good faith.

You must not be in the AOA, otherwise it would be blatantly apparent to you that there are many who are against this agreement.

Rush job?
How long do you need?
You have 13 days, that is 208 hours awake.

Always an excuse to see the world burn eh?

Trefalgar: IQ test for you... The company offers you between 2 and 6 weeks free additional leave (yes CN"s had to pay for 1 week), the bastards! How dare the company treat me with such contempt and call it SLS! Glad you are such a company man and would prefer to work for the money and not take the gift.

Oasis,

You should have stayed gone....

box

What about the reduction of G days when one has leave? That's not in the contract now and, to me, looks like we will end up with less off days per year.

Depends where you get your information.

Has anyone seen the PBPA in this? How come that was not included as well? I am starting to possibly smell a Rat!

Not a CX'er.....but have been. These days I negotiate for companies against militant unions.

You appear to be in a good position with CC/TB. My advice would be a no vote. Send your negotiators back to the table with a clear message that the first deal wasn't good enough. No company puts their best offer on the table in round one.

CX have offered a package that they feel 'might' have a chance to get across the line. They will now be relying on people worrying their way into a yes vote.

Good luck. Don't piss away a strong position.

Grivation
Unfortunately at CX these days the rank and file is filled with shortsighted spiky hair types couple this with an AOA GC that is about to sell us out again over HKPA
I thought this was and RP fight! FFS
Anyway History repeats....over and over

History repeats indeed.

Remember how, in the days before HKPA, SLS was sold off for everyone, in return for 25 yr housing for those with housing, and f-all for everyone else? And how it, to add insult to injury, was arranged to be paid for by carving it out of everyones basic salary, but not a dime out of housing for those with housing? Meaning those without housing, those with the least take home pay to start with, took the biggest hit in percentage pay with nothing to gain in return, while those already with housing not only get to reap all the promised benefits, but get it while getting their full housing paid for in the meantime.

It actually all worked out at the end with no one faring much better or worse. Perhaps it was a form of karmic justice?

On the positive side, I came away with a great lesson learned.

"The enemies of my enemy are not necessarily my friends."

Watch your back(s), Jack.

What's your point?

Remember Mr Fox when a lot of us busted our nut flying in some godforsaken $h!thole earning bugger all striving to make it to a respectable airline with respectable pay. Remember when a lot of us served in our nations armed forces getting shot at. Housing is what attracted a lot of experienced crew to CX and HK.

No one forces anyone to become a cadet and have your training paid for or sign a local contract that was inferior. It wasn't that long ago that LEP's got nothing so they have gained the biggest percentage overall since SLS and 2008....

ME ME F$#çken ME. No wonder we keep voting in crappy deals.

This is my point.

Read between the lines and understand who wants what and why. The answer will be clear on which way to vote. As Curtain Rod said, start at the back and realize nothing is solid except for what is meaningless to both sides. Its about rostering practices and that is the biggest thing we are giving up if we vote yes. No more court cases with respect to cancelling RP07 you are essentially accepting RP15 with a few definitions re worded.


Of course they want the training ban and CC removed for the period of time they have stipulated as it will get them out of the woods as far as training needs. Will anything change with respect to fatigue and rostering that isn't already being done now....No,


The only thing you get is HKPA but that in itself will naturally inflate anyway.


Instinct says NO. Its not a fair deal. Tempting for the HKPA lot, but for everyone else there is nothing substantial for the pineapple.


HKPA guys I assume will vote yes for the short term gain and be conflicted over the RP's. I guess this was the best strategy.


The rest of the guys will be split so there is a good chance of getting 51% YES and that is all they want and the battle will be lost for a long time.


Just re-read the 49rs case summary and its amazing how the same cycle has repeated itself. From introducing a sickness management program to escalating pressure beyond CC and TB. The only difference is the company are actually negotiating with the union still. Its amazing how if you just use a band aid to temporarily fix a problem. That the problem will come back again. Hence History Repeating.

Just noticed the voting has opened. Couldn't wait to get in there and vote a big fat NO!!! Hopefully a majority of others see this deal for what it is and also send a resounding message....

Already entered my NO.

No no no no no no no no!!!!

From a lot of people I have talked to both HKPA and others. Most have said YES already..... Looks like we are about to be blown out of the water and handcuffed to the wreckage for the next 3 years..... for me its a clear NO. But I am surprised at the interpretation of others.... It really is a me me me attitude that is driving the unity of the pilots.... no thought for the future just grab what I can get now.....:ouch:

RAT are we talking about an overwhelming majority here? I think it will be a close vote but expecting No to win. Just from interactions on a couple of different forums there are lots of people going no, even those on hkpa

If the HKPA crowd take the bait on this , it will prove once and for all they are the Intellectual equivalent of Jemima Puddleduck

Actually, you post proves that you are, Goathead

Im a B scaler with housing. Im voting no because the HKPA is not string enough for the New guys.

Not indext and too many scales to the top. 20 + years before you reach 40k.

As for the rest, there is nothing to vote for.

Big NO for me!

Oh Mr Fox, you are so short sighted.
The people here with no dog in your fight have been working hard to help you get a better deal THAN WHAT YOU SIGNED UP FOR!!!!?.. Get it?????!!!!!!!!

Take my advice and think about what experience has bought for those in this company here long enough to have been through this rodeo more than once or twice over the years - the most salient point is that the company will never give something for nothing, always stacks the deck in its favour and like the analogy I am referring to "always wins"..... Nobody is ripping you off, we are just trying to wake you guys up and hope that the short sighted gains of magic and mirrors and some sparkle dust will not be enough to distract your lot from the long term pain you will feel when HKPA does not keep up with inflation, and life is not as bright and cheerful as you imagined when you start getting rostered as per the regional fleet/ FTL limits (because it's legal).

I do hope you will project forward your life and see where it will be if you allow all protections to be stripped for minimal short term gain. Even truck drivers in Australia have better fatigue prevention laws than we have flying here. They will maximize you to the limits no doubt, and increase those limits whenever possible. Take care!

If it goes through
 

Management should write something along these lines.

Thank you for voting yes.

We look forward to this new harmonious relationship, we will immediately open the doors to anyone and everyone who wants to join training as we have a huge training task ahead.

See now we've finally seen that the HKPA muppets, (yes muppets as we know who we hired) have control of the AOA the plan is to train many many more over the next few years and then take away expat terms in a take it or leave it vote.

"I'll leave if they take away expat terms"

We will have trained all your cheaper replacements over the last 3 years so we'd actually prefer if you left.

Thank you and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I look forward to my bonus.

...........

"What's next on my list Mary"

"Start cutting HKPA and hiring crew not entitled to HKPA"

"Excellent...... Mary add to that list, change HKPA wording to something like housing so it says new joiners don't get housing"

That is the GREAT irony Avinthenews. In no time at all, CX will announce that all 'new' joiners will not be entitled to HKPA (the new 'A' scale). If you don't stand up for a proper package now, you only lay the foundations for undermining what little in the way of benefits you presently possess. In this company, you are either moving ahead.....or moving backwards. No one ever stays static. Vote NO.

For the majority of the time I have been here, neither has been the case. Not too long ago, the prevailing attitude here was that what became HKPA was seen as robbing the expat housing pot and should be fought against at all costs.
So this is not directed at you per se, anotherbusdriver, nor does it mean I am siding with the company by default, but enough with the sanctimonious BS about holding out for a higher HKPA, when it is your own housing floor you are guarding against now at little cost to yourself.

It makes me physically sick that these to$$ers who have ruined this airline and it's once great terms and conditions will more than likely swing this vote and let it pass.

These w@nkers have taken the crap terms, ruining the careers of the experienced pilots who joined this airline when it still had great potential to provide a rewarding career.

Now they're more than happy to fall over themselves to accept a few quid which will be eroded in a few years by inflation so that they can buy the latest Xbox and perhaps have a few pennies for some hair gel.

LEPs - I spit on you. And I truly hope you have a miserable aviation career; you've truly earned it.

What comes around goes around.

You make me sick.

:yuk:

If you aren't an pre-1993 A scaler, then Flying Clog your post is ironic.

If you are, carry on

If I wasn't part of the aircrew I would find it so amusing here. The hypocrisy and irony....

free nothing
 

Free reserve really??who the hell would lay down for that??
I see they have clouded the issue of rostering(which is what this is all about)with housing and other items on the periphery!! Crap deal on rosters sweetened with a housing 'deal'. I say NO!! Fix scheduling, fatigue and roster abuse as a stand alone issue and THEN move onto what else ails us...one at a time with no sidetracking or conditions. This has been broken for years and it's what needs to addressed NOW. NO free days!!! Just work days, G days, paid reserve, and leave, that's it!!! Just the the rest of the flying world. They're big boys now so play by the rules...if not then good luck training the next bunch of lemmings.

This 'best we can get' attitude is a load of rubbish.

I don't blame the LEP's at all. I blame the AOA leadership! The directive was clear and we have been lied to and cheated with this absolutey horrendous deal. The membership should be doing something about this by not only voting no but recalling this leadership.

The focus night should be interesting. I wonder whom on the NC will show and try and convince us this deal is acceptable. Rod should be in hiding. Really Rod, after all your letters and talk and rhetoric, this is what we are getting? It's like another Cos O8. I'll be showing up with a torch and a trident. I honestly smell corruption on the highest level. How this even came to be is beyond me now.

The leadership AND membership should have stopped this downward slide along time ago. We should have been in CC the day the company told those Insructor Pilots in Adelaide, here is your new deal sign or your fired. WE DID NOTHING! And now here we are. Speaking of which, as of today those IP's STILL do NOT have their seniority fixed? Why, along with a host of other issues, ie; Staff travel and basings, has it not been fixed? Again, I don't blame those LEP's one bit.

Well done NC/GC/Gen Sec and Pres, well done. You have truly lowered the expectations and the bar for everyone. You have lied to us, misrepresented us and have cheated us. I take solice in that you too will have to live with this but maybe promises of special treatment convinced you all to sell us this giant turd.

You're dam right I'm angry now.

The more I look at it the more reasons I find to vote NO.

There simply is no improvment and too many areas of potential abuse in RP.

The HKPA has too many steps in it.

In an essence. We are giving away a position of power for nothing.

Big NO for me.

These issues should never have been bundled together. I feel the Union has let the membership down here.
The newer HKPA members will only see $$$ as they will not have had the disappointment or frustration of dealing with RP issues for real.
CX has once again played one group off against another and the GC has endorsed it!
I foresee quite a few membership resignations if the YES crowd prevail.

Well I would have thought the HKAOA is a democracy and you all get an equal VOTE yes or no.
What, now you won't accept the result that your colleagues vote on because you know better than most?

I tend to agree with you that the offer is crap, so get out there and sell your thoughts to your colleagues and stop making stupid threats about spitting the dummy and throwing your toys out of the cot.

You Dan are better than that mate.

Better still, join the GC.

Except, ACMS, we are basically voting HKPA recipients against the others.
Voting a meagre payraise for some against bad rostering rules for all.

Would the vote be different if it was only about RPs? I bet it would.

Tyranny of the majority.
And without the training ban, it's gonna be even worse next time.

Flying Clog
Your a very nasty piece of work or a troll

LEPS take no notice of this piece of work

Nope, not buying it Dominic. It's a trick. If we sign the deal we get promises without any substance. It's happened too many times before. We need to send the deal back and get, in the very least, MUCH MUCH BETTER WORDING. We allow too much interpretation and it says nothing about renegotiating anything. Too much vagueness and will talk later nonsense. More false promises of the all coveted base slots. They use that one a lot. Then you know what, SIGN A BASINGS DEAL, RIGHT NOW!

That GFBA and RA has been used against us in the biggest way I could have ever imagined and I am not buying it anymore.

VOTE NO!

Then go read the side letter to the tentative agreement asking that we talk Europe out of their RPs lawsuit. Well, now we are starting to see the real reasons for this TA. I think it's time to vote and then leave the AOA if it's gets voted in cause I mean damn.

@ goathead - yes, I am a nasty piece of work, and perhaps an @sshole. Anyone who knows me would agree to that.

But I stand by everything I've said nonetheless.