Trouble in HK atc
 

So many colleagues are unhappy about the attitude of our management. More restrictions on swaps, no more leave and more....my friends talked about more sick calls. This is all no good, but can we do something to make it better soon?

Trouble? What trouble?

We own your lives. We will roster you how and when we wish, it is as simple as that. Didn't you realize you are at the beck and call of the Department when you signed on the dotted line. Read the small print.

Just because YOU must respect, follow and not engineer your roster for your own selfish personal reasons, so that you have a life outside work, does not mean that WE cannot. In fact we have our dedicated roster lady working every hour of the day to engineer the roster within an inch of its life. She will ensure you do not have a life and if there is any reason to suspect you are, you will be disciplined.

Problems with leave? Again, there's no problem! We will simply force you to sign a leave form then covert it to TOIL and Bob's your uncle- no more problem.

Your Union is toothless. What sort of a Union sends letters to us saying they want to work together with Management?! Unions are supposed to thump the table and make demands and threaten us with action if we don't fix things! Instead you want to help us continue to rule your lives! Fantastic!!!

Of course we know there is talk of sickies. Big deal. We have plenty of junior controllers who will come in on their day off because we will threaten them with their promotion if they do not. I must say, we laugh about how many of you are so stupid as to answer your phones on your days off when the number starts with 2910. Helloooo???

If you thought things were bad now, wait until conversion training for the new atcc starts. You may as well bring your wardrobe to work because you won't be going home very often. Oh, but when you do go home, we will be expecting you to take training material with you and study in your own time- what little of it you have left.

Anyway, all the grumbling will die down again soon with the announcement of the civil service pay rise. Of course most of you will end up with 4.5 of 5/8 of SFA after inflation but thats not our problem.

Have to go now, something about multiple resignations in my inbox. Must put a stop to that.

ATC Management

Uncontrollable controllers in hkatc
 

Recent cases of abuse have highlighted the need for a firmer control of the Hong Kong air traffic controllers. They have no discipline and generally act like irresponsible boarding school students. They refuse to show restraint and continue to abuse the roster by swapping duties with colleagues to attend family gatherings, BBQs, parties and other irrelevant activities. This kind of abusive conduct makes administration very difficult. Additionally, we are once again going to hear the usual complaints about fatigue caused by working the “4 days on – 1 day off, 5 days on – 1 day off pattern” during the Bad Weather Season. In Management we work 5 consecutive days every week - yet nobody ever hears us complain about fatigue! Furthermore, the controllers are complaining they don’t get enough annual leave. It is possible that a very small number of individuals do not quite get their full leave entitlement each year, but Management have kindly arranged for the overflowing leave to be converted to TOIL - as a temporary measure, of course. Thus, extreme measures are taken to help the controllers keep the hours for their future benefit, but nobody values the efforts of Management and childish complaints can be heard every day – pathetic! Shift swaps without valid reason and requests for leave from controllers are never-ending. Staff has frequently been reminded that shift swaps are concessions provided by Management and not a God-given right. However, the controllers simply refuse to accept this and disrespectfully keep swapping. Therefore, Management intends to issue a revised Admin Memo to stop abuse once and for all. In future, shift swaps will only be allowed in the rare case of the documented death of a close family-member.

Due to its professionalism and dedication, hkatc Management is less popular in atcx than Osama bin Laden in Manhattan, but still remains committed to always doing its best to improve the controllers already excellent working conditions. Management is fully aware that there are talks about the number of “sickies” going up in the near future, but let us firmly remind controllers with rebellious thoughts in mind: we have you all well and truly by the testicles and will not hesitate to squash them like grapes if so required. Don’t forget that Management decides who gets leave as well as promotion and has several other clever ways of making “difficult” controllers cooperate.

None of the controllers in Hong Kong appreciate the inhuman pressure Management is under, the difficulties and stress caused by dealing with irresponsible factory workers who constantly complain and think of nothing but partying, shift swaps and leave. Nobody fully appreciates just how demanding it is to be a Manager here and having to remind staff to be more vigilant when things have gone wrong.

Management often gets accused of overdoing it when we congratulate ourselves for a job well done - should something actually go well in hkatcx for a change........! But let us face it: nobody else ever gives us any praise. So we reserve the right to congratulate ourselves every now and then.

Meanwhile, you can all rest assured that Management will remain proactive, vigilant and professional at all times and is committed to remaining white and pure – even in this glass of dirty ink.

Management(s),

We have missed you (both.. or are u 1 in the same?)....

In any case, how's the new ATC Management position going?

b.

Not 1 in the same but learnt the tactics of fear and intimidation from "The Management". An excellent tutor. Unfortunately no bonus forthcoming here but we do get issued lovely Blackberrys so that we can incessantly email each other 24 hours of the day telling ourselves what a great team we are.

I see my close Management colleague posting as well.
You can recognise us travelling in the car together at lunch time while the lowly controllers take the bus. Plebs.

We will be scanning the logs tomorrow for any transgressions today during the ever so slightly "challenging" weather. Low movement rates cannot be tolerated.

Trouble in HK ATC
 

In the current issue of AA's HKIA News there were rewards for excellent service awarded for everyone from security staff to store managers to check in staff for their contribution to the success of HKIA.
ATC handles 100% increase in traffic in the last few years with nearly no staff growth and 1997 pay level. There was never a nice words of thanks from anyone and are labelled 'factory workers' by the director who hates ATC because he never made the grade. The engineer who was made the ATC boss do not want to know our problems and you pilots who fly in here should understand why we are frustrated.:ugh:

We the Willing
Led by the Unknowing
Are doing the Impossible
For the Ungrateful.

We have done So Much
With So Little
For So Long
We are now Qualified
To do Anything
With Nothing.


And ever was it such.

'Due to its professionalism and dedication, hkatc Management is less popular in atcx than Osama bin Laden in Manhattan' and:
'we have you all well and truly by the testicles and will not hesitate to squash them like grapes if so required'

WOAAWWW!!

I am beginning to regret all my harsh words about our management in the past. I will no longer call them number crunchers and bureaucrats. These guys are really tough! Respect! Keep it up boys!

We have no need to keep it up.
Our response to this little outburst has been swift and incisive. You should know your President faced the firing squad last week and took a bullet for the rest of you troublemakers. Make that 7 bullets.

You will all now toe the line, face the front and behave, like the petulant children you are. Particularly the post 80's bunch who have grand ideas of having working conditions the same as those they have seen overseas. Don't get any fancy ideas. Paid overtime? Not a snowball's chance in hell. Full accounting of leave entitlements according to the CSRs? Dream on.

Now get back to the production line.

ATC Management

Content removed - wasn't my post!

Atc mis-management
 

Yet again we are in this situation of Sledge hammer to the Mouse mentality!
4th Floor take it upon themselves to rule with a big stick to a professional and high functional group of intelligent people demeaning them with pathetic and childish reactions to something as simple as a shift swap 'within' the rules! CAD670.
THE TIME IS COMING WHEREBY ENOUGH IS ENOUGH AND THE ATCO'S WON'T TAKE IT ANYMORE! Bigger issues are more worrying!!!
Stress management and traffic management are 'safety management' issues and someone's gonna 'crack' and hopefully NOT on the job!!
Max accumulated leave of 180 days mainly affecting local Chinese ATCO's plus TOIL balance figures in excess of 50 hrs with no prospect of leave or reducing these figures, for years ahead, is on the minds of most ATCO's working very high tfc levels 'every day' and 'night' combined now with weather deviations etc.
The warning bells are ringing and it's not a matter of 'if' but 'when' we see something really serious occur.
4th floor will be running for cover and the 'wing and a prayer' philosophy or the TCAS/RA stats, won't protect them in the court of law. e.g. Swiss ATC!
Egypt, Libya, Syria, Yemen, ........... HKATCX is next!

Warning to all controllers
 

Any controller who confronts or criticizes Management will pay the price – it is only a matter of time, really. My close Management friend will confirm this. Adequate measures will be taken whether we are dealing with the President of the Union or just a simple factory worker who is abusing the roster by swapping excessively “to help his colleagues”. Management has the power to seriously hurt controllers who show poor judgment - and we will do so if needed. Controllers are in no position to do anything about it – don’t they realize that? Helpless like worms caught in a hot frying pan!

Controllers, listen up now: this storm in a teacup about lack of annual leave, fatigue, buildup of TOIL, arrogant Management, hollow threats about revolution and more nonsense will blow over very soon. As usual, nothing will happen and don’t talk to us about CAD670! We shall retire in a few years, live a trouble free life and leave you to sink like a rudderless ship - we spit in your general direction!!!

I think it's just sad to see the way the young ones are being burnt out at such an early age.
Constant manipulation of the roster is creating an extremely unstable working environment for all of us but the young ones seem to be copping it the most.
Seeing eager SATCOs turn into jaded ATCOs in such a short space of time is depressing. We older ones at least have memories of happier times.

Thanks for the vote of support Mr Winterland. We notice a similar degradation in piloting skills lately as well. Maybe it's catching.

Lap Sap
 

Had a conversation with a Chief Pilot recently. ".....your pilots don't seem to be able to fly the aeroplane anymore. "..... we don't want them to fly the aeroplane, WE WANT THEM TO BE SYSTEMS MANAGERS." How true. :{

Rule 3
 

I think most of our approach controllers, including expats, would wet their pants if they saw someone doing 350 to 15 these days.
Couple of rules I was reminded of recently by one of the guys in the procedure unit:
1. They all gotta slow down to land
2. There's only one speed instruction- 210- its just a matter of when you give it.

Sorry Dan but can't see how you, sitting in your jet, can actually tell that there is a degradation in standards at HK ATC. Every day is different, I've been flying here more than 12 years, no issues.

Maybe you are the problem, too inflexible ?

I am a little offended by your statement and I don't even know any controllers.

Care to enlighten us on what services have eroded over he last 18 months ?

What policies are you referring to ?

Of course I have heard around the traps that they are under staffed, difficult to get leave and so forth but those are management issues.

Despite being aware of some of the difficulties they are working under, I believe they are true proffecionals when they are at the coalface and they would leave those issues at the door. :D

DQ,

I agree with you:ok:

Lap Sap
 

Sounds like advice my old Mate Y and L gave me many years ago, along with
" A bit of vert never hurt."

I think most of the drivers onboard would, as well, specially on 07!!
Mmm, anyone care to try 350 to LIMES? :( How about it, Mr. Winterland?
Thought not. :{ Now, what was that you were saying about degradation etc, etc?

Bring back the Trident and real pilots :E

On the beach (and staying here) :ok:

19 posts on this topic and not a word from Throw a Dyce!!!
Where are you Mr. Dyce???

Sorry if the earlier post in my username upset some people - it wasn't me who put it there. I had used a computer at work to while away some dull hours and logged on to PPRuNe. Obviously, I didn't log off properly and later, someone else using PPRuNe on the computer saw someone else logged in and decided to add a few posts using my name!

Top tip - log off PPRuNe properly if using a communal computer!

I've seen 350 at Limes beach but not for a while, needs to be middle of the night. It were a chief pilot too! I know Dan could do it cos he used to fly the big V! I've only ever managed around 320.
Dan, I hope they didn't knock out a couple of emails on your behalf as well.

When Abusiveness of Roster Looms
 

STOP belittle yourselves in front of Management and play "BIG Brother" in the Union of ONLY 30% of representation (or less :}). Exercise your energy in your small little empire at Kai Tak. Your letter to Management on your new definition of shift duty and roster system under abuse reconfirms my decision of not being a member - CORRECT!

The fatigue you mentioned applies on you exactly when you were in TearU, 408 and/or at the hot seat. SPE might have recorded someone's snoring.

By the way, it seems you spent genuine effort on recruiting SATCO/ATFSO to become your private club member rather than rescuing the dying Union. A piece of suggestion to you: Since you have such a zealousness in managing club matters, why not write another letter to Management requesting to relocate your club at Sung Wong Toi Road to ATCX.

The coming AGM is your exit.

Fly 747 - I hope not! But I doubt it as I had logged out of the computer, but PPRuNe was still logged in my usename. I've since been back and logged off.

It would have to be 345 at Limes these days. Too close to the ''ding ding ding''.



And to whomever it was who used my log in, It's my fault for not logging off I know - but rather than use someone elses name to send abusive posts, use your own. PPruNe's anonymous anyway!

foxtrot oscar foxtrot zulu
 

So what's your solution foxtrot zulu? Guess you're happy to sit back and put out your hand to receive the benefits that Unions (not just ours) have fought for over the decades. You think your current salary is what it is because the Government was feeling benevolent?? I suspect the only snoring going on is from you.

Or if I read your b/s correctly, you think there is nothing wrong with the way the roster and leave system is being manipulated by Management?
Do you think the numbers they produce bear any relevance to the true problem? Who cares what percentage of leave requests are approved. That means Jack Sh1t.

Now lets not blame CAD exclusively here. Why aren't the THB and CSB brought to account for their decisions not to approve staffing increases over the years while they know damn well that traffic has grown 100% in the last 13 years?

Perhaps someone from the SCMP who reads this could start asking some hard questions at the Bureau level. Don't let them hoodwink you with their recent too-little-too-late approval for Students. With training taking over 5 years and at least 20 controllers due for retirement in the next 2 years, the horse has well and truly bolted.

Re: China Daily
 

Read the China Daily not the SCMP. Another piece of journalistic and sensation-seeking rubbish. Unbalanced and filled with personal negativities.

Put the roster and leave issues to one side.

For those grumpy and frustrated controllers who were interviewed, you should be ashamed of yourselves for suggesting that a rise of incidents has to do with fatigue and causing futher distress to a fellow ATCO involved in the incident highlighted. Where is the blame-free culture that fellow ATCOs are supposed to uphold as well?

Truly unprofessional statements to make and not called for.

Why, FFS?
Thats the crux of the problem you idiot. Who say's the rise in incidents is not due to fatigue? Have a look into the eyes and faces of the young ones- they're f:mad:d already. Ready for 68 movements an hour boys and girls? Its just around the corner. Or are you going to show some solidarity and put your foot down and say no-we're not doing it. Stuff your target movement numbers. Start shutting down a few sectors- we don;t have the staff to man them.

When is someone going to admit that they stuffed up and didn't recruit enough people 5 years ago?

I see you journos didn't do what was suggested and go to the Bureau level and rattle a few cages. Why wouldn't they approve additional controllers in 2006 when CAD told them there would be a shortage. Even the Dir Gen on day 1 in his job told them they were 50 short! Guess he was shut up quick smart.
So now in 2011, with a high % of Approach controllers over 60 (some 63 can you believe! - nowhere else in the world will you find 63 year old radar controllers still doing Approach at a 1000+ movement a day airport!!) and a heap of the locals due for retirement, the Bureua sh1t themselves and say, ok ok you can take on 30 students
Holy crap, it will be 2016 before these young ones are of any use to the system. Meanwhile at least 30 controllers will retire in the next 3 years and we're back to square one!
If ever there was a reason to tell Airport Authority not to bother with a third runway coz CAD can't even find the controllers to run the show, AND GET LEAVE THEY ARE ENTITLED TO, then this is it.

Yaumo.

Contradicting years of research on Human Factors, you suggest that roster and leave issues have no bearing on the number of incidents. Interesting reading indeed – can you fill us in a bit on your revolutionary theory please? You don't seem to understand the meaning of 'blame-free culture' either – it refers to ATC management (not) just automatically looking for somebody to blame, but being constructive about it.....see?


Anyway, enjoy your 3 days off!

Controller in Fragrant Harbour have no fatigue cos they all have early-go almost every shift. It is their wild private life making them fatigue.

Here we go again.......!

Mr Sap,
Agree with everything you say IMHO.AA could always contract ATC out to a contractor.NATS,SERCO,etc would be grateful for the passing trade.
Beach
I preferred the BAC 1-11 to the Trident(ground gripper).Useless 5 engined pile of Auto land junk.

Dycer:cool:

Never flown an aircraft which can use reverese in flight (Trident?) but I'm sure it would be useful for the Siera 5A with a shortcut! ;)

I think it's the SIERRA 5C arrival to the CANTO hold for you, my lad, until you can learn to spell. :)

Oops. :ouch:

Beach,
I think you've picked up the parliamo glasgow.
Sierrrrrrra aye.:ok:

Ouch, hoisted by my own petard, as we say down here, mes amis! :{

Or, Awaanboilyirheid, as they say, up in the other place! :\

On the beach

P.S. I'm beginning to think there may be something in this climate change after all. Four months ago it was very cold and now it's quite warm. :)

yaumokauchor

you are right, it is their wild life after work cause the majority of fatigue.

How stupid of us to forget that our whole life is dedicated to keeping that sh1thole running.
Of course we shouldn't be having a good time 'outside working hours'. As far as some are concerned we are ALWAYS available to keep the system going.:yuk:
Now pi$$ off and let me drink my beer in peace.

EARLY-GO and Yaumo.

OK; you 2 are right and I shall now share my secret with you:

I frequently suffer from fatigue and this has absolutely nothing to do with working 5 on - 1 day off most of the time and not getting my annual leave. It is exclusively due to my wild personal life so full of loose women, endless amounts of beer, whisky & wine as well as smoking joints practically every night. Actually, it is quite normal for me to roll around in my own vomit with the rats in the sewers of Wanchai 2 hours before the beginning of my shift, have a quick shower, throw some after-shave onto my face, and then off to control airplanes without being able to see straight – great fun I can tell you! Then – oh dear, after 2-3 minutes of my shift fatigue usually sets in!

Dammit – you guys are just too smart for me so please keep this secret for yourselves? BIG BIG SECRET!!!!! HUUUUUUUUSSHH!! OK?

If CAD cut their time off and didn't let them go on leave, then they'd be shifting 120 an hour!

On the beach (Is that a contrail I see? Oh no, it's just another volcanic ash plume!) :E