"Last Saturday was a goatfest. The holding @ Abbey now ALL the time.. strange vectors.. maintain high speed from first girl, next girl please slow 220, next sector 250 knots please.. "

With that kind of speed control, you are definitely flying into HK . Always welcome you guys back with open arms.

AAIGUY: "Last Saturday was a goatfest. ..."

A goatfest seems to be a popular title for music festivals in rural areas. Did you really mean: "Sterotyped Traditional East Asian Unplaned Combustion Event Response Practice Activity" ?

I blame A MAN that somehow, no one can get on with well.

Time spare - go by air!

Are you serious??? You really think we analyze every flight plan that nominates HK as an alternate and say, gee, we better save a spot on the taxiway for this guy in case he diverts? Matter of fact, I don't even think we get flight plans addressed to us just on the basis of being an alternate.

You have a strange idea about the way things work in the industry.

The problems in H.K. C.A.D.are many and varied . Extremely poor recruiting over the past 10 years or so has produced many below average controllers,too many females and a management staffed by incompenent fools.Spineless , back stabbing bigots ,most of them .
No wonder pilots are getting frustrated with the controllers.Their understanding of how airtraffic control works is almost non-existent. Things will only get worse as more and more of the experienced expats leave .
Bring back the Americans and Canadiens and things will improve.
God bless America.:D:D

What exactly does gender have to do with competence? Or the ratio of male to female employees?

LapSap

Do you really work for HKG ATC? If you do I think that the above quote is the root of your problems. No option but to hold everyone :ugh: are you serious? Did anyone actually go around after getting established on the ILS? OK, I know the answer to that one, it was all diversions from the hold. Was the weather ever bad at the airport? Ah, know the answer to that one also.

Early and Iron,
No, I don't hate women at all. But in H.K. A.T.C.,it is quite evident that most of the women there, not all,are at the bottom end of the competence ladder, including the A.S.U.'s. and A.P.S.'s.Very little knowledge of exactly what they are trying to achieve, unless it is wriiten in a book . If it is in a book, they will ofcourse have no problem. But try to ad-lib or when ****e hits the fan, they get a little ''lost''.Not just my opinion , believe me.

Lazygal/Early Go et al

See how In have revive this dying link as I promised you?

Though I must advise you to read these impostors with thy judgments.

e.g. HR's fuddled exposition (oxymoron!)on Calculus ATC (Newton's or Leibniz's?)
AAIGUY's perverted and unfair views on Chinese women controllers
FF4 calling me YAAFM when I pointed out the bigots, racists and chauvelists (wonder why the moderators tolerate and not remove them?)

Everyone is trying to come across as smart alecks and putting others down!
What they dont do is to attune themselves to modern ATC, which is
based on specialization and sectorization. We only care for what happen in our small sector, we dont co-ordinate unless Squawk 7700 appears, we concentrate in our own tasks at hand. Let the managers take the big picture,
that's their job and they get better pay than us. So if u are no.1 in a sector,
of course you will be asked to bolt, if you are smack-dab in the middle, you may be asked to slow/ Going into the next sector, if your no.1 position in the previous sector catches up the last in mine, of course you will be asked to pull right back. Have you not heard enough of the instruction "Report your speed on first contact with 1xx,yy?" - we dont even co-ordinate that, we ask you to tell the next girl what we did to you, hahhahaha

Buggar me, if that last post is from an actual HK ATC'er, and is any indication of the standards and thought processes in play on the other end of the mic, I'm scared!

A few years ago coming into HKG in ****e WX ATC was the least of your worries, absolutely top class! Now, ATC it is becoming a threat on a good day!

As others have said, I hope it doesn't take a smoking hole for CAD to get their finger out!

Reporter from Standard contacted me yesterday.
Think we'll be seeing this in media shortly

Send her a email

[email protected]

CX and KA just got screwed by ATC managers in the Standard. :=

From an insider it was a larger ATC problem not an individual controllers fault.

I just hope CX and KA managers have the balls to demand a public apology and that a few heads roll.

boys & girls

rather than wools being pull over our eyes to the half truths, isnt it more intriguing to see how this has evolved into a political football?

e.g. Why is the scaremonger ex-HK aviation/HAECO chief so keen
to incite the public to demand a commission of inquiry? Why must he see heads roll? Has he got an axe to grind with the current aviation chief?

While HK CAA has released high=profile data about the controller involved,
"plenty of rest, plenty of positions opened, 14 years plus experience, etc etc"
Why is CPA/HDA silent about pilots expertise?

Someone is responsible, who is that someone Albert is trying to slay?:mad::mad::mad:

I don't think anyone is specifically trying to 'assassinate' anyone here, nor using this as an excuse to 'get even'.

These incidents on Sunday, all point towards major, serious problems within HK ATC. I've been flying in & out of HK for 15 years and can honestly say that over the last 18 months or so, there has been a BIG, noticeable difference in the competency of the controllers.

The controllers who post on this forum have been saying & warning of this for quite some time now, however talk is cheap, you say. Well, I can say first hand, that I have experienced many, many times 'at the coalface' what these controllers are indeed warning.

Who is at fault here ? Is it the controllers themselves ? No. They are operating as best they can.

They have simply not been provided with the skills, experience, resources and people power to do their jobs safely and efficiently.

So who is responsible for providing this. Obviously management.

Management are grossly neglecting their responsibility and duty. That there is the core of the problem and Sundays fiasco was a big, big warning sign of this.

So no, there is no 'axe to grind' here. Are we to ignore this blatant warning sign and simply soldier on ? When will things change then ? Once 300 or 400 hundred people have been killed ? Is that then the time to make change ?

Most likely. The CAD has been absent from so many recent safety lapses. HKA, CPA, and now ATC. Today's corporation is managed by short sighted accountants and MBAs who have no skills to really manage. None of them have a serious stake in the corporation they manage, nor have they ever really built something from nothing. You can't expect these people to care about safety because safety costs money.

That is why we have regulators. They are there to prevent profit at all costs. Not just in aviation, but in all industry in which the public's safety is at risk from the greedy. And this is the CAD's job, at which they are grandiosely failing.

Take CPA for example. The company basically writes the rules as they wish. Any concerns brought up by individuals or the AOA are deferred to the company. Basically, self policing, which we know DOES NOT WORK. When is the last time CPA was fined for anything by the CAD? Ramp-checked, and found NOTHING outside compliance? Either CPA is perfect, or someone is not looking. :hmm:

Then look at how CPA is allowed to recruit non-locals as cadet pilots. This scheme was introduced by Cathay to make up for the fact that so many of its pilots came from other countries. A way of giving back to HKG and planting the "aviation seed" so it could grow and compensate for this mostly foreign sector of HKG. Now that program is just about 100% foreign as well, cause most locals know a ****ty deal when they see it.

I don't need an insider to tell me that ATC is in the same trouble. You take off around midnight, one of the busiest periods in HKG and when you check in on the hand off from tower you can hear the departure controller also working arrivals. WTF:confused: On days with weather this controller is talking non-stop, which is very UNSAFE. This is ridiculous and shows that the CAD is non existent in protecting the public.

So unfortunately, it will take a major air disaster to wake up the masses and demand serious punishment to the ones responsible. Until then, the CAD will remain absent from all this and continue with business as usual - because business is really the only thing they are looking after. :yuk:

Totally agree with Giuseppe there has been a noticeable decline in the standards/quality of HKATC over the past year or so.

A couple of months back on a CAVOK evening, it was 6pm, we were told a delay of 45min, when asked why the reply was weather which led to what weather the reply was weather this morning!!!!

That day had thunderstorms in the early morning around 8am, I understand the problems with China's airway system but delayed to TPE? When we finally got airborne we virtually went direct ELATO without a cloud in the sky, nor was there any significant traffic, We believed ATC may have been short staffed due to the morning workload was more likely.

We're all lucky HK has dodged all the typhoons again, the perfect storm is approaching and I'm not talking just about typhoons, HKCAD you better wake up and take your head out of your .......

HKATC have been exonerated, and now both flights will be investigated into why they ignored ATC instructions.

2 CX planes 16:50 today 29th
 

Can someone please tell me what was going on with a B744 departing about today 29th at 16:50 just airborne and "seemly" taking avoiding action from another Cx twin.

or was this just an optical illusion.

re-position of flight, just a matter of angle of viewing. no problem there. no need to be so sensitive.

Rumours has it that Manwell is the new President of the Controllers Association, any truth in this? His last push for GM?

Who is our saviour? :confused:

jerk

hkcad statement has clearly said that the pilots did not obey or respond to
atc.

The new president should issue a press release quoting the cad
to backup his/her members demanding actions be taken againist the cockpit crews. In uk, this will be expected of a strong union:D:D:D:D

MANWELL should be the new assoc. president because they both deserve each other as both are a complete waste of space.

The CAD press release also said:

"On a normal day, there are typically eight controller working positions for the Approach Control Sectors in the Air Traffic Control Centre. In anticipation of the traffic complexity due to bad weather, one additional working position was opened up (for a total of nine) on September 18, and 13 controllers were on duty to man the nine positions in managing the air traffic. The staffing provision was considered sufficient to meet the traffic level."

Only 8 physical Approach stream control positions - no 9th exists - normal staff levels do not allow all 8 open for extended periods and usually only staffed for any 7 at a time. App supervisor needs to work under the then normal rostering arrangements and even under a recent update. This is of course provided everyone turns up. Office can provide some contin

Of the 8 positions - two lack the normal desk fittings for strip handling and one has a non-standard coms layout.

NOT ENOUGH STAFF that Sunday or any other day of the year - sorry to shout but it seems like some are a bit deaf in CAD.

So one press release about one of the incidents around that time:

Why no release about the second incident with one of the aircraft involved in the first incident a few minutes later?

Why no press release about the secondary frequencies in use following multiple primary frequency failures earlier in the day (so NO backups if the single point of failure Comms unit fails - as they do)?

Why no press release about the fuel related Maydays?

That Sunday HK ATC broke - chaos - that warrants an honest open press release - why wait for the 'smoking hole' as someone else here put it before CAD admits the true state of HK ATC?

Were these supposedly "ignored ATC instructions" given during the supposed RA?

(If so, it seems nobody has mentioned ATC instructions must be ignored and TCAS RA instructions must be followed instead, in all cases, to avoid a collision.)

We should not ignore ATC instructions. Too bad.

TOIL - what does any EG or late-break as you call it have to do with anything that happens in the middle of a shift? How about we trace your IP address and punish you for being too stupid?

that's what I said....... your point is?

A-GPS (and others), don't you know what a TCAS RA is?

Have you heard of the midair collision over Europe because one crew obeyed ATC instructions instead of their RA instructions? Are you familiar with the phrase "TCAS RA/climb/descent" that means the aircraft will not follow ATC instructions until the imminent collision is avoided?

i can see this thread is dying again, lets close it
and return to work as the storm in the teacup is blowing over:ok::ok::ok::ok:

Before you go,have a look at the UK AAIB archive report 1/89.
It was between a Tristar GBBAH and TU154 LZBTE over Lydd on 6/2/88.
Many sobering and parallel lessons to be learned,and it looks like the HKCAD has learned little in 24 years.Not surprising really.:rolleyes:

Close this thread. TAD will learn his own lesson in different occurrences before his friend yat.kin.fat.choy invites him for a long party.

Y.K.F.C
I haven't got a clue what you are wittering about,and I guess the pilots will be the same.Sort of sums up the problem really with tin cans full of hundreds of people flying around and your ICAO level ?*! English at the helm.
This dragon is glad to be OUT.:)

Agreed t.a.d.
YKFC, I've tried to understand what you are saying. No, really. But for the life of me, I just can't figure out any of your posts.
Please tell me I don't work with you on a regular basis- or are you on the 'whacky watch'? That would explain a lot.

TAD

your quoted ukaiib incident bears no resemblance at all to what happened
in hk on 18 Sep. Our opposite numbers in uk failed to co-ordinate as they should have, each one working their own on each offending tin-can;
in hk our doctrine is "respect airspace integrity and minimum co-ord",
the 2 iron-birds were under the same girl's control. So dont try to be a smart-aleck and think you know all, you know nothing!

AT

RADAR is easy to spell, two As either way;
APPRAISE and APPRISE are not, one tricky A makes hell to your spelling.

Also are you serious about asking youse honker co-workers to take their
180-day leave? Do you really not know that they are all forced to accumulate and not spend because "management" has to make sure that
youse honkies get your colonial legacy of "annual leave" in every year?

Otherwise, they have hell to explain to the overlords in civil service board
why they fail to do so. Local honkers are much easier to manipulate
coz they all want their promotion

Also, dont tell me that you only get 1 late break every shift?
How many breaks did you have before youse snuck away at 1:30pm?

Stay hungry but stay contented:

The past months were extremely testing times for Management. Frankly, our only real problem is the controllers. Recently, they have cheekily claimed they do not get enough leave, they don’t get long enough breaks, they are overworked and suffer fatigue etc. They even say there is a shortage of controllers – how could they possibly know? Management has heard it all before and is not impressed. Statistics are very useful – and recent statistics available to all in the name of Transparency - show the opposite to be true and suggest Management is doing an excellent job as usual.

Some controllers have accumulated 180 day of annual leave, but the truth is they actually don’t want their leave and are happy to accumulate leave and TOIL so they can retire 6-12 months early 20 years from now. These days, practically everybody requesting leave gets it. Anybody saying otherwise is lying, simple truth!

Management makes sure lots of leave is given to the controllers by making others work on their day 10, by rostering staff 5 on - 1 off, 4 on- 1 off etc and Management brilliantly staggers the shifts so controllers are able to work two and a half hours before their well-deserved half hour dinner break followed by another two hours of work. Management rosters the supervisors to work and combines positions on the Daily Manning template. Management even goes to the extreme of assigning controllers annual leave on their days off between 2 cycles so their leave balance does not exceed 180 days. Thus, Management does everything it possibly can to make sure controllers get leave. The staffing situation in atcx is most healthy and there are no problems here at all. In actual fact, there is a surplus of controllers and therefore it has been decided that a new Management position will be created in a shiny new office on the Fourth Floor. That will fix all future problems. By creating this new position Super-Management once again shows just how clever and vigilant it is and this will prevent occurrences like 9-18 from ever happening again. Speaking of 9-18 it must be pointed out that – in spite of what was viciously written in the press - the manning on that day was more than sufficient. Extra positions were opened; there were plenty of controllers at work on the day and the individual controllers workload was reasonable and with plenty of breaks as well. In fact, one extra controller was rostered on September 18 to cater for unexpected events like this minor hiccup. Everything was under complete control at all times and all actions were executed in a calm and orderly fashion. At absolutely no point was any aircraft in any danger in any way. Super-Management had a meeting with Dragonair and Cathay representatives and the 3 parties reached the conclusion that it was simply an unfortunate one-off system error. After the meeting Management changed course and blamed the pilots in the official report. How cunning of Super-Management! Now the 2 airlines involved have missed the chance to argue their case and we found ourselves squeaky clean as always.

You can all rest assured that Management will continue to selflessly do its best to improve the controllers already excellent working conditions. The controllers, however, seem forever ungrateful and do not appreciate this hard work at all. Such pathetic commoners and normal deviants – they lack discipline, integrity and vision. On top of that, according to our statistics, they only work 36.17 hours a week. The controllers are mere pimples on the bottom of mankind! Management spits in their general direction.



Off to lunch now, my Blackberry is vibrating.

WANTED
 

need help to track the IP address of hkatc Management :=
he should be hanged :E

hkatc Management, the weather is getting cold, save your gas to warm your stomach. Why not line up to collect the reimbursement from the union which had declared bankruptcy last night. :{:{