Retirement at 55, 65, 75....
 

" Retirement Age

I am receiving a number of enquiries about talks with the AOA on Retirement Age – understandably there are individuals who need to make plans based on the outcome of the talks.

Unfortunately I can only say that talks are ongoing – it is inappropriate to release details of the various proposals and counter-proposals as they happen.

I can confirm, however, that the Company is not "going through any motions." I am very keen to introduce age 65 into the contract of all crews as I believe that it is, inherently, the right thing to do -for both the Company and individual crew alike. You should all be able to plan your own careers and choose when you wish to stop working. It should not be left to chance based on the phase of the economic cycle when you turn 55 or the discretion of the management team of the day. I’ll let you know as soon as we reach agreement. "

The above is from CX management.


From a non-A Scale Capt (me)...

We have all planned on a career progression and retirement at 55. This has been known to all as a fact of life at CX since we signed on the bottom line. We all have had to plan for this.

Anyone who works past 55 is STEALING four promotions (off the street to SO, SO to JFO, JFO to FO & FO to Capt). You STEAL their extra income, you STEAL their professional development, you STEAL their chance to retire before they are too old for a life. SO DON'T DO IT!

F**K OFF as you agreed to when you joined.

A-Scalers have a long history of selling out all others for their own interests. If you are C&T past 55, F**K OFF. The CX line that you are needed to train for the expansion is crap - others can easily take your place. New blood would also bring C&T into the modern world.

The ONLY fair way of getting retirement at 65 is to sign new joiners to this.

Very subjective thing this retirement age question.

Lets start a poll on who wants to retire at 55.

NR said I will have x amount of dollars in my PF when I retire and I would make z% per year. Not even close, Tosser.:mad:

As most will vote to suit themselves and not the greater good of the group.:*

NR and some others (closes to 55 group) will want 65 implemented immediately but a more sensible way to do it is phase it in over a 10-15 year period.:ok:

I am sure the AOA will look out for our better interests, they have done so in the past.:}:D

Can there be an emergency EGM to mandate the AOA stop all negotiations until a new GC is formed?:confused:

I would retire tomorrow if I had the money, but NR is making sure that is later rather than sooner.:mad:

Funny how people like you "cxlinedriver" etc think pilots on extension are "stealing" other peoples jobs - what bollards. As well as - well the contract that most people signed is not the contract they now enjoy - so some would like to work longer, especially as their "plans" were messed up by the company and it is the only way they will recoup their losses. As for your other comments - must be great sitting next to you "oh wonderful captain":D, you sound even worse than the "A scale" captains you are deriding. :ugh:

he may be cool as ice but he's hit the nail on the head.:ok:

I am an "A" scaler. Like NC and others, I joined in the early 90's on a payscale that is unrecognizable to what I have today.

I have haven't had a pay rise since 1994.

I have had my pay CUT significantly, without my consent, several times, in one form or another since my DOJ. The stock that we were given in partial compensation has underperformed from day one.

My career progression has been NOTHING like what I was assured. I had to endure years when we had almost no advancement (10 or 15 commands a YEAR), ASL, 9/11 and SARS.

Am I where I thought I would be when I joined? NO, not even close.

If I am offered a career in CX beyond 55, I'm taking it.

YES to 65 (I won't stay that long, my body wouldn't take it) but that's another issue.

I just crapped in your underpants you Goose

Now tell me about those Share options you got at $7.47

yeah, we remember that little bonus from NR.


NC has already established a long time back that if you'd left it in the market it would have almost OFFSET the WHOLE pay cut.

SO DON'T COME CRYING POOR TO MOMMA OK

A scale is still pretty damn better than B.

Sorry to say, but HE STARTED IT, NOT ME.:D

"yes I took out that money a long time ago" I hear you wine

Well maybe you should have left it alone, to grow like your PF. Shares will generally grow over time, especially 10 years. Anyone that took them out was a silly fool and only have themselves to blame for being greedy early on.

NEXT..........

What was the CX share price yesterday?

A LOT MORE THAN $7.47 that's for damn sure.

OUCH

well I have to agree with CXLINEDRIVER....
we all signed on knowing age 55 was the end of the contract. honestly you cant cry that you dont have enough money once you reach 55yrs here with CX regardless of the position.:ugh:

I laugh at you lot:}, always talking about your all the expensive crap you have and yet we have people (the same people) moaning that they dont have enough money and needing to work till they die.:}

Come on guys, we all joined for career progression, none of us signed on to work over 55yrs, so let the guys at the bottom have some progression, bugger off at 55. Sure that progression varies due to 101 factors, but dont let an increase of retirement age increase time to upgrade. If you dont, make sure bypass pay conditions are not touched, if you do you will really screw over the guys on the bottom over.

I cant understand why this is a group that always seems to have continually given away its conditions.....:ugh:

Let me get this clearer for you.

WE SHOULD ALL BE ON A SCALE. ok

I don't begrudge A scale for 1 millisecond. What I do tire of is A scalers complaning about their paycuts and conditions.

WE are ALL in this TOGETHER.

So enough of the A scale B scale dick measuring contest.

( I'm very guilty of it, I know. )

i was talking to someone about why we have so many differen scale. Is this the case with other airlines?

Is it CX's intention to create and not merge all these different scales so that people do not unite?

put everyone on A, or B, hell just pick somehting!!

Mr Bloggs For President
 

Be patient just a bit longer. It shouldn't be too long before the notice for AGM and nominations for President and GC is sent out.

Then I am sure that Mr Bloggs will be the first to submit his nomination to do his bit to help his fellow pilots - NOT!!

NewEsso,

I hope that you are being sarcastic, but maybe it is a little ignorance. Of course management loves to maintain multiple scales. It accomplishes their jobs for them. Just listen to us on this board!! Everyone sniping each other. If we are going to maintain and improve our conditions, this is the best time for us to do it. The company wants something desperately, and that gives us some leverage. Once this is gone, we really don't have much else to work with. If there aren't significant pay raises to go along with it, then it shouldn't change. They can continue to extend people and hire DEFO, and we will continue to receive bypass pay. End of story. And to your other question, no, most airlines don't have all of these ridiculous scales. Everyone on A scale, the end.

box

This is truly the most reduntant issue for discussion. The reality is simply this: if you're a Captain, you are comfortable with age 65; if you're an FO, you are against age 65 (that is until YOU are made captain, then of course you will default to the first clause). The argument is pointless, as we all see it from the position that best benefits each of us individually. As for a B scale FO telling me that I am 'stealing' from someone because I want to work to a 'normal' industry retirement age...well, refer to your own expletive....:ok:

ACMS:

Agree 100%. B scale happened on A scalers watch. Other airlines around the world are doing similar things; starting salaries being an absolute joke unless you are financially well off and in it for the fun !!!! (Don't think too many of them anymore)

Unified payscale happened on my watch. I together with the rest of the pilot group let that happen, and I promise I will not complain when I don't get a raise while "C" scalers are fighting for them to get to B scale.

We should never have let different pay scales happen, but I won't go there, just say that if you let somebody in below you on lower pay/worse COS you are shooting youself in the foot. If you can't see it is going to come back and haunt you, well then I don't think you derserve that payraise anyway.

Given the choice between keeping my salary and having newhires join on lower payscale vs. having one joint payscale in between, ie. I take a paycut and the newguy gets the same (annual adjustments aside) I take the latter. It would unite the pilot group, make us stronger (yeah I'll keep dreaming) and all this bit c hing about A scalers, B scalers etc would not take place.... And I would poke the wife instead of spending time at the PC....well maybe not...

Going for a refill at the bar,

Cider30

What a bunch of crap!!
 

Without sounding repetitious, I'm getting tired of the anti A scale rant. It clearly shows the lack of common sense and sophistication of some.

If I recall it correctly, those who joined in 93 said that they were willing to do my job for less money. Plain and simple. The result is that I have fallen way behind in pay. So, if I want to blame someone, the B scalers are the obvious choice. Yet, I don't as I probably would have done the same thing.

As time has marched on, others have come and said they would do the same job for even lesser pay. Now we have COSAP 08 a severe degradation of the contract. Using the elementary logic of some on this forum, what did the B scale crowd do to stop those accepting this even lesser scale.

Should someone decide to stay past 55, that is their choice, and their choice alone.

So children, the next time you rant against some particular group look at yourself and ask how you have contributed to the present predicament. Or better yet, what you haven't done to stop it.

Nighty night

Solidarity
 

It seems the "my gripe is bigger than yours" game continues.

A scalers
I can understand the A scale angst of not having received a payrise since 1996 - I can understand the apparent disparity of B scales getting payrises for much of their existence. But I think A scalers need to understand the size and scale of the disparity. As many point out, its not how much you earn that counts, its how much you have after costs of living are taken out. So if we assume B scales barely cover the cost of living then the fact that an A scaler on the same career path would earn about $6-10million more
than a B scaler must surely tweak some empathy for the B scaler plight?

B scalers
Most of us 'ole timers' joined an airline that seemed to specialize in largesse - 3 months profit share, almost 20% payrises, 3 years to command. Suddenly it was taken over by a corporate culture more akin to walmart. No more profit share, time to command slipped out to 10 years. Since that time we have suffered degradations to CoS, 3 year paycuts and ever diminishing levels of benefits - nibbled to death by a thousand ducks I think Nigel called it. Whilst our financial aspirations have had rather drastic reductions we have watched B scalers get 'improved' salary for many years.


So who has more right to feel aggrieved?


RA55/65 is a contentious issue. Whilst it may seem to be an A scale vs B scale issue, it isn't. Its a senior vs junior employee issue - or captain vs FO/SO issue. More than half our captains are B or C scalers. The issue is about the added degradation to career progression that RA65 would entail for those with less than 4 stripes.

Whether RA65 is legislatively required is arguable - it is definitely corporately desired. But CX wants to degrade the conditions of those that get extended and reduce or remove any bypass pay for those affected. We should ensure that those that work past 55 are extended with no degradation to CoS and that those whose commands are delayed are fairly compensated. I have already outlined how that can be done - its not rocket science!

CX is the 'bad guy' behind this - not A scales for joining early and having suffered degradation in career earnings and feeling aggrieved - not B scales for joining on lower salaries and then getting 'ancy' when an even greater blowout to time to command occurs. Blame the cause of the malaise - our corporate mismanagement cancer - not the symptoms!

Whatever 'deal' is offered - weigh it up in terms of the effects on you individually and to the pilot body in general.

CX - its just a job!

welcome back WC.

Nice to see you here again.

I LOVE ALL A SCALERS AND THEIR COS, WE SHOULD BE WITH YOU.

NC, correct as usual:ok:

What everyone seems to forget, or indeed not know, is that B scales were not invented by A scalers. CX was going to B scales full stop. Pilots had already been shown the new scales as part of the first interview process and all were eager to accept them. What we did was accept a fait accompli for some benefits for ourselves, in return for endorsing the CX position. Once again, if you can be bothered to look back through the AOA files it's all there......

B scalers have no grounds to whine about A scalers or changing of conditions such as age 65, THEY started the rot by accepting lower pay scales and conditions, thus undercutting the ground the AOA of the time was standing on, and indeed sowing the seeds of the AOA weakness we see today... :=:=:=

Capt Underpants, you have been with CX from the early 90's and still haven't achieved (financially..)what you were hoping for. This is over a time span of almost 20 years, now I have to ask you a question, do you think by staying beyond 55 (maybe till 60 or even 65 if your body can take it) you will achieve what you are hoping for...........?

IT IS SIMPLE.

Age 65 is fine as long as I get my BYPASS PAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So all of you stop bickering about details an unite to make sure the above happens.:ugh:

Retirement age
 

Unless things have changed dramatically, everyone joining CX knows that normal retirement age is 55. Obviously, when the company requires it, extensions are offered. Given that most will have a considerable time to plan for their retirement, to then expect to extend is likely driven by poor financial planning or sheer greed.

Missing Blade...SPOT ON!!

MACH.88

I'd be happy with RA65, so long as the provisions for bypass pay are clarified and improved. We are all in agreement that time to upgrade will be extended, so therefore our career earnings will be reduced the longer we are delayed - even if in receipt of the COS99 bypass pay. I support Numero's incremental bypass pay proposal:
I'm a bit perplexed that there hasn't been any proactive polling of the AOA membership on what we think is an acceptable amendment(s) to "our" contracts. ? In the absence of AOA seeking information, I'd suggest we get off our collective backsides and ensure the GC knows what we want.

Divide and conquer......nicely done Cx. :ugh:

Our AOA is going to be renegotiating our bypass wtih CX, but CX want a reduction of the current terms, unfortunately not an improvement. So I would suggest the same as Ex Douglas Driver, write and make sure you let the AOA know exactly what you want in regards to you bypass or whatever. Otherwise you may be looking at a reduction in your terms. :ugh:

retread: coudn't have said it better myself, well said that Man.


If your 55, A scale and cannot retire then holy smoke what have you done??

Also remember these same heroes volunteered to work past 55 for absolute crap pay with NO benefits, now that want it ALL and want it NOW....

No payrise since '94 Newsflash: you don't need one.

mmmmmmm

Oh and by the way:

Captain Undies made this a B scale A scale thing back in reply #6

NOT US.

Greedy bugger:D

some food for thought, or cake...
 

as a new joiner on cos08, i probably stand to earn the least compaired to all the whiners (for lack of a better word) on this thread.
yet, i can't seem to wipe the ear-to-ear smile from my face after finally getting the job i have worked towards for the last 4 years:). if you tried hard enough, i'm sure some of you might remember it...

in other industries, salaries are confidential - you have no idea what the person next to you is earning, nor have you any right to know. you are there to do a job, and paid accordingly.
yet we as pilots think we have a right to moan about how much a person with year's more seniority is earning...

when a-scale was dropped, i still had to stand on my toes to reach the urinal. it has no bearing on my life whatsoever. as for cos99 or -07 or whatever it is; again, it was not offered to me. i am quite happy to accept cos08, and i'm sure you all were to sign the various offers made to you.

as for the wait: so you get bypassed for a few months/years due to ra-65. yet you now have a career that can last 10 years longer! more than enough time to recoup any losses. surely you can't expect to given full bypass pay AND stay till 65? yet that might still happen. mmm! that cake tastes great!
company expansion (almost 10% growth per year!) should also offest the upgrade delay caused by the new retirement age.

but we will all fight for a raise in our individual capacity? b-scale wants a pay-rise, but would begrudge a-scale the same? no logic there. surely an increase accross the board will benefit everyone, be it a-scale, b-scale, or cleaning lady??

ow! my head hurts.
patches

checked Retread7:ok:

wait...
 

i've got it. we could start a club to do all the negotiating for us, like a union or something...

its a gift; like i can't control it...:ok:

...and NR slowly leans back and smiles cynically as he reads the latest thread on PPRuNe

I can't believe that I share the sky with some of you halfwits.

Patches you have a few things to learn.:*

MACH.88

Really Capt Undies..........get a life outside your undies will ya.

Share a sky with you halfwits............


Is that the best you can do with all the money NR paid you?

Go join Southwest and learn how to GET ALONG.

You're the dope that said "f you lot, I'm A scale, and proud of it and I'm staying after 55, so there"
What do you expect us all to say???

I have a lot of A scale friends and you just take the cake, my North American friend. Atleast they don't RUB IT IN OUR NOSES like you.

What a sad state of affairs this thread has become. The fact of the matter is that once we get RA65 we should all be on A scales, but will most probable all be on B scales.

We all knew what contract we were getting when we joined, the B scaleres knew that we were going to get paid less than A scalers which is something lots of A scale guys keep on reminding us.
Then again all of the A scalers knew that you had a better Pfund, Pay , and a travel fund to compensate you for a shorter career (most Ascale guys joined in their mid to late 30's). All of this was given knowingly that your career was going to stop at 55...you knew what you were signing for right!

The one thing that really makes me want to throw up is when I hear on how the Ascale salary has not been adjusted since 1994, but currently is still 20-25 % more than a Bscale Captain.

You then hear on how some guys are upset about having to pay tax on their travel allowance when most of the Bscalers do not even get one! Lets throw in that the fact that the currency protection on the Ascale Pfund is now at 10-15 or20% when the Bscalers have 0%, or when a Ascale captain tells his crew that he is going to extend because he does not think that his Aud 3.5mil pfund is not going to be enough....uhgh!!!

Come on guys , please do not try to play the I'm so hard done by card, because you have had a very good run so far...and yes we will all be going to 65 so be humble about it.

yeas Frogman that's what RUBS ME THE WRONG WAY TOO.

1...2...3... lets all spend 1 min of silence for those POOR A Scalers that cannot afford to retire without taking just a pinch more.

or to quote the Classic DCP: "put something back into Aviation" funny stuff

good on ya mateeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Now people listen closely:

Like I said back a few posts ago: lets not continue with this A scale B scale B.S. Lets all work TOGETHER for a better future after 55 for ALL.

(or something along those lines)

All for one and one for ALL:ok:

So the in-fighting STOPS right here and right NOW.

UNITED front

ACMS,

Yeah, you said that a few lines ago, then proceeded to slag and fire away!!

Man o man....don't you get tired? How many kicks at the can does it take for you to try and make your point? Do you think shouting louder and more often helps? My gosh, you've made 678 posts (I think 78 on this one alone).

BTW, don't cry for me or my mates, bud...we're marketable.

You and your girlfriends remind me of someone happy to buy a house next to an airport, then whine about the noise depressing the property value.

It's beginning to depress me to think that maybe I'd rather not fly with some of the immature posters on this thread.

Patches, being bypassed for a few years is a bigger issue than you think. Had you joined a few months before you did and had the ability to operate a calculator then your view would be quite different.

As it stands now, a new joiner in December 07 could reasonable expect to be on command bypass pay for about 6-7 years. Should there be a recession in the airline industry sometime over the next 17 years then that time could easily be extended to let's say 10 years. The simple maths exercise goes like this and I'm using Pounds Sterling with all sums being rounded to the closest big number:

Difference between SFO yr 6 and Capt yr 1 = £20,000
6 years bypass pay 20,000 x 6 = £120,000
10 years bypass pay 20,000 x 10 = £200,000

Obviously these figures are approximate and you also have to bear in mind that bypass pay doesn't even come close to ameliorating the true lifetime earnings reduction that a delayed command results in (see separate post by NC).
This is just the basic pay element but when you introduce the availability of bases into the mix then the effects of the extensions are even more severe. Now......do you see why people are concerned?