Cathay pilots have got no balls!
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This thread won't be allowed to degenerate into yet another "89ers" thread nor into a name-calling thread.
This thread is about CX and has thus far generated some interesting dialogue, lets keep it that way please. Thanks.
BlueEagle - Moderator.
This thread is about CX and has thus far generated some interesting dialogue, lets keep it that way please. Thanks.
BlueEagle - Moderator.
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thank you for your patience Blue Eagle.
if i may just briefly reply to amos and Kaptin M. i have informed crew of my position re: the AOA and in a number of cases thus far, they have been very sympathetic. i don't desire any contact with the present leadership of the AOA so , as such, they would only be aware of my position through heresay. as for joining the union under the present circumstances - " i don't think so!"
kaptin M, you are indeed a lost soul with,IMHO, a huge chip on your shoulder. you were going to give the AFAP the flick and join the company, like many of your companions did. but what happened? you lost your nerve and crumpled under union pressure to stay out. i would suggest you were probably the victim of peer group pressure and now you resent that decision and everyone but your own good self is to blame. we all make mistakes, you must be man enough to realise your mistake and never allow yourself to be ruled by a union again. stand up for your own "gut feelings" i would guess you realised early in the piece the AFAP's fight was futile in it's present form but you allowed them to dictate to you and it all turned to sh!te.this is what i was trying to impart to amos - it was not so much the Cathay pilots having balls, but whether or not they could stand up to a union leading them into oblivion. of course we, the replacement workers ( or for you Kapin M - scabs) will get the blame for dividing a union bit i am afraid the division was there many, many months before we joined. as with the ansett/ taa management, the CX management did not come down in the last shower !
if i may just briefly reply to amos and Kaptin M. i have informed crew of my position re: the AOA and in a number of cases thus far, they have been very sympathetic. i don't desire any contact with the present leadership of the AOA so , as such, they would only be aware of my position through heresay. as for joining the union under the present circumstances - " i don't think so!"
kaptin M, you are indeed a lost soul with,IMHO, a huge chip on your shoulder. you were going to give the AFAP the flick and join the company, like many of your companions did. but what happened? you lost your nerve and crumpled under union pressure to stay out. i would suggest you were probably the victim of peer group pressure and now you resent that decision and everyone but your own good self is to blame. we all make mistakes, you must be man enough to realise your mistake and never allow yourself to be ruled by a union again. stand up for your own "gut feelings" i would guess you realised early in the piece the AFAP's fight was futile in it's present form but you allowed them to dictate to you and it all turned to sh!te.this is what i was trying to impart to amos - it was not so much the Cathay pilots having balls, but whether or not they could stand up to a union leading them into oblivion. of course we, the replacement workers ( or for you Kapin M - scabs) will get the blame for dividing a union bit i am afraid the division was there many, many months before we joined. as with the ansett/ taa management, the CX management did not come down in the last shower !
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At the risk of drawing this thread away from the Aust. dispute (happy anniversary for yesterday I believe) let me make a few points to you TSI, and all others who believe they are indestructible.
Fighting between ourselves will achieve nothing.
There is only one "enemy" in this entire saga that we refer to as a career. It is the penny pinching scrouges (commonly referred to as management) who are hell bent on screwing us out of a decent career, and grinding our renumeration down until it reaches what they refer to as an industry standard level.
There is only one way to stop, or at least slow this process. That method is via a group that represents the majority. Presently that group is the AOA.
I, like you are B-scale, yet if you look carefully, you will see that I am afforded certain benefits (medical) which you are not. Why is this so? Because the company are very slowly chipping away at us from all directions. You have the AOA to thank for getting your present P-fund contribution. Were the company to have their way (and they did give it a shot for a short period) you would be getting significantly less.
What is my point? You can beat your chest all you want, but if all of us dont get our sh!t in one pile, (whether it be the AOA or not), we will find ourselves sitting there in 10 or 15 years time, commenting on how lucky we are that the FAU managed to negotiate our maximum housing to only be reduced to $24K, instead of the shared housing policy which the company was about to implement.
Clock is ticking.
Fighting between ourselves will achieve nothing.
There is only one "enemy" in this entire saga that we refer to as a career. It is the penny pinching scrouges (commonly referred to as management) who are hell bent on screwing us out of a decent career, and grinding our renumeration down until it reaches what they refer to as an industry standard level.
There is only one way to stop, or at least slow this process. That method is via a group that represents the majority. Presently that group is the AOA.
I, like you are B-scale, yet if you look carefully, you will see that I am afforded certain benefits (medical) which you are not. Why is this so? Because the company are very slowly chipping away at us from all directions. You have the AOA to thank for getting your present P-fund contribution. Were the company to have their way (and they did give it a shot for a short period) you would be getting significantly less.
What is my point? You can beat your chest all you want, but if all of us dont get our sh!t in one pile, (whether it be the AOA or not), we will find ourselves sitting there in 10 or 15 years time, commenting on how lucky we are that the FAU managed to negotiate our maximum housing to only be reduced to $24K, instead of the shared housing policy which the company was about to implement.
Clock is ticking.
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Well said jtr!
The AOA can take the credit for the current COS. I agree if management had their way, things would be a bunch worse...........but..........
the AOA can also take the credit for the fact that the current COS are now defunct. (There was no re-negotiation as the committee refused to 'drop the ban')
So where to now? Rather than the mexican stand-off we have ....where - after the election are we going to go? How far are we willing to go?
The company will accept no less than not only dropping the ban but also a. no blacklist & b. allowing those previously banned 'new joiners' the chance to join the AOA.
Is the membership willing to accept this - no matter who 'wins' the election?
Personally I think this is the ONLY way forward - the ONLY way to get "our sh!t in ONE pile".
TSI and others may choose not to join (personally I dont think the AOA needs militant or emotive extremists of any ilk) but if membership again exceeds 90% the 'whats in it for ME' crowd may see the decided benefits of speaking with one voice.
The next move in this sorry saga is the AOAs and the stakes are very high....perhaps even they survival of the AOA itself...dont you think?
The AOA can take the credit for the current COS. I agree if management had their way, things would be a bunch worse...........but..........
the AOA can also take the credit for the fact that the current COS are now defunct. (There was no re-negotiation as the committee refused to 'drop the ban')
So where to now? Rather than the mexican stand-off we have ....where - after the election are we going to go? How far are we willing to go?
The company will accept no less than not only dropping the ban but also a. no blacklist & b. allowing those previously banned 'new joiners' the chance to join the AOA.
Is the membership willing to accept this - no matter who 'wins' the election?
Personally I think this is the ONLY way forward - the ONLY way to get "our sh!t in ONE pile".
TSI and others may choose not to join (personally I dont think the AOA needs militant or emotive extremists of any ilk) but if membership again exceeds 90% the 'whats in it for ME' crowd may see the decided benefits of speaking with one voice.
The next move in this sorry saga is the AOAs and the stakes are very high....perhaps even they survival of the AOA itself...dont you think?
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This all chums together act only works until the next disagreement over the way forward against a colonial management style.....would YOU put your trust in these HKAOA new joiners who have already proved their character? Whether shortly, TSI or anyone else like it or not, the Co. MUST negotiate with someone. That someone has to be the HKAOA, as set by contract, precedent, and knowing HKG, eventually the courts. Nobody will win in this apart from the leeches, sorry, lawyers.
SC,
If you want to discuss "Character" I suggest you cast your net a little more widely than the new joiners.
At the outset of the ban the AOA undertook to "Support the application" of pilots who refused to join under the ban. I have asked on this forum and by direct contact with the AOA how this undertaking would be fulfilled and now ask you the same question. The reply from the AOA has been stony silence.
If we want to discuss "Character" let's talk about a group of well paid professionals who fight their battles on the back of people less fortunate than themselves, lest it actually risk their own positions, or indeed those gullible enough to believe that this organisation will stand by it's pledges when they support it.
If you want to discuss "Character" I suggest you cast your net a little more widely than the new joiners.
At the outset of the ban the AOA undertook to "Support the application" of pilots who refused to join under the ban. I have asked on this forum and by direct contact with the AOA how this undertaking would be fulfilled and now ask you the same question. The reply from the AOA has been stony silence.
If we want to discuss "Character" let's talk about a group of well paid professionals who fight their battles on the back of people less fortunate than themselves, lest it actually risk their own positions, or indeed those gullible enough to believe that this organisation will stand by it's pledges when they support it.
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Phew!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let's see, umm, cx pilots no-balls??? Well, A scales, COS, AHK, ASL, the 49ers... walked away from their responsibilities every time. Hard to defend. Mighty hard to defend.
As for the 89ers thing which seems to have got bound up in this, if you AN/TN guys had done what blubbering bob said and joined the actu like good little boys and thereafter gone on strike in support of every screwdriver holder between gove and hobart and handed over your super such as it was to good old pete which was all you had to do you would now all be perfectly happy and content and there would be no need for all this heat and fury and we could shut pprune down and go home to our wives and girl friends and live happily ever after.
Think about it.
Let's see, umm, cx pilots no-balls??? Well, A scales, COS, AHK, ASL, the 49ers... walked away from their responsibilities every time. Hard to defend. Mighty hard to defend.
As for the 89ers thing which seems to have got bound up in this, if you AN/TN guys had done what blubbering bob said and joined the actu like good little boys and thereafter gone on strike in support of every screwdriver holder between gove and hobart and handed over your super such as it was to good old pete which was all you had to do you would now all be perfectly happy and content and there would be no need for all this heat and fury and we could shut pprune down and go home to our wives and girl friends and live happily ever after.
Think about it.
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no one is indestructable in this industry. what goes around, comes around. there must soon be a total cleanout of the HKAOA executive and a new direction in employee/employer relations embraced. the "recruitment ban" was a farce and a poor industrial tactic. let's face it, even the name adopted -RECRUITMENT BAN - was a joke. the only people who "recruit" is the Company. what could IFALPA have been thinking. did anyone seriously believe that Cathay Pacific were going to take any notice of a directive by a couple of unions to stop recruiting? of course we all know that this was a gutless guise, endorsed and probably initiated by the AOA, and which really was a "joining ban". then we had the up-grades - what a mess! this is where the AOA, not the Cathay pilots, had NO BALLS. a union could not be seen to be supporting a joining ban on pilots - the future membership, so they hid behind a "recruitment ban". very cute but very disasterous for the union in the end.
the clock IS ticking jtr. ticking for the AOA to get it's house in order by changing the guard and make a genuine effort to get everyone under the same banner.
the clock IS ticking jtr. ticking for the AOA to get it's house in order by changing the guard and make a genuine effort to get everyone under the same banner.
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Gentleman, after a lengthy post we realize again nothing has been achieved. My only sadness is directed at the anger and hatred created from this episode which is being used to belittle users viewing their opinions instead of constructively finding the way forward. Who knows what that may be but its gotta start somewhere. This ordeal has made everyone a victim including the company, the new joiners along with the union and the 49’ers alienating one another from the way forward. The system is at fault, not the people so let’s built a system that works and quite barking at the shadows which we won’t catch in any case. I am at peace with what has happened and both the new joiners and union should come to grips with their differences because one joint effort will give the AOA the strength in numbers. 
Nothing has been achieved? CX has been taken back to Court by the AOA. Management has finally agreed to restart talks in November.
The replacement pilots have every reason to feel vulnerable to future management decisions.
The replacement pilots have every reason to feel vulnerable to future management decisions.
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FR is a perfect example of why there can be no progress between CX management and the AOA.
"CX has been taken back to Court by the AOA. Management has finally agreed to restart talks in November."
Here is the basis which determines our good faith we'll sue you and expect you to roll over and play dead. Darn, I'd love a bottle of whatever FR drinks.
If there is to be negotiation in any sort of environment conducive to progress how can there still be the less than subtle threat of continued expensive legal action, 'scab' lists and selective enrolment for the AOA?
If I were in a position to decide I would not even turn up for the 'negotiations - hah' in November. Wouldn't it be better to clean dirty laundry around that table as part of the negotiated discussions and leave court action as a very last resort? The judicial apparatus can be slowed with minimal cost without adversely affecting your position.
And, can you believe "I am at peace with what has happened", denial, the ultimate placebo for the uninformed ovine fraternity.
"CX has been taken back to Court by the AOA. Management has finally agreed to restart talks in November."
Here is the basis which determines our good faith we'll sue you and expect you to roll over and play dead. Darn, I'd love a bottle of whatever FR drinks.
If there is to be negotiation in any sort of environment conducive to progress how can there still be the less than subtle threat of continued expensive legal action, 'scab' lists and selective enrolment for the AOA?
If I were in a position to decide I would not even turn up for the 'negotiations - hah' in November. Wouldn't it be better to clean dirty laundry around that table as part of the negotiated discussions and leave court action as a very last resort? The judicial apparatus can be slowed with minimal cost without adversely affecting your position.
And, can you believe "I am at peace with what has happened", denial, the ultimate placebo for the uninformed ovine fraternity.
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Mr. Flexible Response. Your statement about the legal actions does not necessarily relinquish the pain, anguish and discomfort created over the past ten years and that is very much the issue. More tension is always created but enough said as I do understand and accept that the legal action taken was the only option in this entire saga. My question is , are the unionist attitudes a prerequisite when joining Cathay Pacific? Why shun those who approach life in another manner and accept that people are actually different and are very unlike the small group if pilots Cathay once employed. It also seems financial benefit is actually a topic of many discussions and that is a backlash from the A-scalers and the “then soon to be A-scalers”, not the plight of our colleagues in lesser careers now. This was certainly the case with the many who withdrew their memberships during the Ban period, which on its own spawns an entire debate about the validity of the ban knowing that near on half the actual pilot body did veto the recruitment ban. This is why I suggest a fresh approach to join the split body and build the future together. We can clear this mess.My case is one against the pilot body being split bearing in mind that the new joiners may very well be a minority but they are not alone outside the membership of the AOA and undoubtedly many members of the AOA may feel the new joiners have a rightful position here at Cathay Pacific.
Mr. Shortly
You lash out at me for a feeling of goodwill and optimism....... then you sink FR for unwillingness to negotiate. We all have strong opinions my boy but take it easy with those knives and perhaps we will see more clearly. Remember we are playing for the same team. Denial is far from where I am at , and please inform me in your own time as to whether you think we can find the way forward whilst the anger boils in our bloodstream. I certainly hope the negotiating team has more direction than that... yet you hint of constructive negotiation. At least we are on the right path.
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hey FR you are kidding Pal. i've never felt more secure with my present management. vulnerability would presently lay with the AOA leadership because of their inability to bring the Company to the negotiating table with some positive negotiating !
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A little fat bird tells me that CX pilots may well have a chance to disprove the title of this thread.......ASL(II) apparently is at this very moment having those essential cosmetic touches added to its conditions of service to attract the poor and needy amongst the cockpit crew fraternity(?).....what will the 'millionaire morons do this time?.......