Cathays 49ers
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mandrake,
CX did not have a downturn, they had a very BIG upturn, so I say again, why the hell should emploees take a pay cut??
As for the bonus, its in the contract, nuff said.
Oh, and I don't work for em.
If the A.O.A. had talks with Cathay after the 9-11 tragedy & told them that the pilots were willing to take a 15%pay cut to help the company out during the downturn in the airline industry simular to the staff at Singapore Airline , the chances of the 49's of being re-employed would have improved.
As for the bonus, its in the contract, nuff said.
Oh, and I don't work for em.
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To answer the question that was asked, you need
to hear from a 49er and that's me.
We 49ers are cohesive group, we have looked for
work so our members can gain some relief from the
subs they are paying to keep us fed and housed
etc. We are waiting for our court cases to come
up an be heard. That will happen in the next 3 months
with most of the actions starting in January.
The USA case will be taken further to the supreme
court.
When the settlement comes the Replacement Workers, (RWs), issue will be
resolved as follows. All RWs will have their
advancement frozen for the same length of time
that the 49ers where unemployed. During this time
cx will undoubtedly recruit and then once
this period is up the RWs will be allowed to
advance on the seniority list. The RWs will not
be allowed to profit from there actions.
MaxThrust - I see this is your first post, please abide by the rules of the BB. Your own association uses the term Replacement Workers for anyone who takes up employment with CX after the ban came into force. Replacement Workers is the term to be used on this forum please. Thank you.
BlueEagle - Moderator.
to hear from a 49er and that's me.
We 49ers are cohesive group, we have looked for
work so our members can gain some relief from the
subs they are paying to keep us fed and housed
etc. We are waiting for our court cases to come
up an be heard. That will happen in the next 3 months
with most of the actions starting in January.
The USA case will be taken further to the supreme
court.
When the settlement comes the Replacement Workers, (RWs), issue will be
resolved as follows. All RWs will have their
advancement frozen for the same length of time
that the 49ers where unemployed. During this time
cx will undoubtedly recruit and then once
this period is up the RWs will be allowed to
advance on the seniority list. The RWs will not
be allowed to profit from there actions.
MaxThrust - I see this is your first post, please abide by the rules of the BB. Your own association uses the term Replacement Workers for anyone who takes up employment with CX after the ban came into force. Replacement Workers is the term to be used on this forum please. Thank you.
BlueEagle - Moderator.
Last edited by BlueEagle; 25th Dec 2002 at 10:27.
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Look here boys and girls, at the end of the day, right or wrong..blah..blah..blah..this could be me or you, at the mere drop of the hat, the whim of some manager having a bad day...welcome to aviation..the fact of the matter is, the AoA is a toothless tiger. It is Christmas, and our colleagues deserve, and have earned our respect, and best wishes during the present holidays, and our support in the new year to come...there but for the grace of God go all of us....we're only as good as our last paycheck...."semper fi" 49'ers don't look back...
Max Thrust,
How will those who turned down employment in support of the ban be repaid?
Will you undertake not to accept re-employment unless anyone who declined Cathay employment to help you is also guarenteed a job?
If you don't, it will mean the "Replacement Workers" indeed made the right decision by securing themselves a job.
How will those who turned down employment in support of the ban be repaid?
Will you undertake not to accept re-employment unless anyone who declined Cathay employment to help you is also guarenteed a job?
If you don't, it will mean the "Replacement Workers" indeed made the right decision by securing themselves a job.
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Hey MaxThrust
Why don't you guys just get off your backsides and get a real job instead of sponging off your former colleagues?
I for one am happy not to be an AOA member...
Why don't you guys just get off your backsides and get a real job instead of sponging off your former colleagues?
I for one am happy not to be an AOA member...
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MaxThrust
Stop dreaming. You are finished at CX...by your own hand and that of the AOA leadership.
Time to grow up and take a long hard look at yourself...your actions got your name on the 49er list. You were not chosen at random. The longer you stay around the weaker the AOA gets. Last count had membership at 56% of CX pilots. What is it now? When it drops below 50% and the company makes offers through our mailboxes (they have always said that they would deal with a union only if it reps > 50% of pilots, not less) who will be to blame? You and Nigel and friends.
You played the game and lost. Move on.
Stop dreaming. You are finished at CX...by your own hand and that of the AOA leadership.
Time to grow up and take a long hard look at yourself...your actions got your name on the 49er list. You were not chosen at random. The longer you stay around the weaker the AOA gets. Last count had membership at 56% of CX pilots. What is it now? When it drops below 50% and the company makes offers through our mailboxes (they have always said that they would deal with a union only if it reps > 50% of pilots, not less) who will be to blame? You and Nigel and friends.
You played the game and lost. Move on.
(they have always said that they would deal with a union only if it reps > 50% of pilots, not less)
One might observe that some are getting entangled in the web of their own deceit.
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FLIION
The penalty for taking an upgrade will be to answer already-asked, inane questions on PPrune about recruitment issues and the ban till hell freezes over.
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
The penalty for taking an upgrade will be to answer already-asked, inane questions on PPrune about recruitment issues and the ban till hell freezes over.
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
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Closed Email Account - FlexibleResponse
FLEXIBLERESPONSE:
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Please provide an active Email address to [email protected]
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BlueEagle - Moderator.
Sorry to make this public but you have elected not to receive Private Messages and the Email address you have given claims not to know you! "This account has been disabled or discontinued" they said.
Please provide an active Email address to [email protected]
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If it is your ISP that has responded in error please contact them and clarify that the address you have already given is current and reactivated. Thank you.
BlueEagle - Moderator.
Dear BlueEagle,
Sorry for the loss of contact. Please check your email at admin1.
FlexibleResponse
[Thanks FR, your message will have gone direct to PPRuNe HQ, not to me. If you can still do it, a copy via PM or email to me would be appreciated.]
BlueEagle,
Email to you as requested.
FlexibleResponse
Sorry for the loss of contact. Please check your email at admin1.
FlexibleResponse
[Thanks FR, your message will have gone direct to PPRuNe HQ, not to me. If you can still do it, a copy via PM or email to me would be appreciated.]
BlueEagle,
Email to you as requested.
FlexibleResponse
Last edited by FlexibleResponse; 30th Dec 2002 at 06:33.
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Capt U
Once again when confronted by the real issues you sidetrack.
The reason this question keeps on getting asked is because there is has been no easy answer. I can tell by your posts that your feelings have been bruised from earlier replies. However I have and will continue to stick to the issues.
My question is for a 49er. How can you not criticise pilots who take upgrades yet lambast new hires for getting their foot in the door? In fact if you get your way the hew hires will be penalised as a post mentioned earlier, however they will retain their employment which completely endorses their decision to join.
To the guys who held off on applying (and the chance of a job in this market) in support of a pilot group who does nothing but take upgrades and promotions (on the basis of more money for the 49ers out of the bigger paycheck sub I presume) you will be rewarded by knowing that the guys who did join will in fact keep their jobs and continue a career at CX.
And why is that? Because all the boorish rhetoric of the 49ers and their supporters about how the replacement workers will get their just rewards, how they will never work anywhere else in the world because of the 'S' word have held such little respect and meaning in the broad aviation community that finally a 49er has come on this board and admitted that in the end they (the 49ers) will agree to work alongside the joiners as long as they are made to suffer a little.
Remember guys, they don't want anyone to join this airline yet they themselves are willing to return and work with the people they have been excoriating all these months. Surely as such principled professionals they would not agree to work with the RW's or in fact ever return to a company that treated them so badly (not to mention taking a seat beside a veteran who took zero industrial action to support him)! Wrong, they jusy want a job flying.
If I was a 49er my issue would not be with the people who joined it would be with the leople who stayed.
Once again when confronted by the real issues you sidetrack.
The reason this question keeps on getting asked is because there is has been no easy answer. I can tell by your posts that your feelings have been bruised from earlier replies. However I have and will continue to stick to the issues.
My question is for a 49er. How can you not criticise pilots who take upgrades yet lambast new hires for getting their foot in the door? In fact if you get your way the hew hires will be penalised as a post mentioned earlier, however they will retain their employment which completely endorses their decision to join.
To the guys who held off on applying (and the chance of a job in this market) in support of a pilot group who does nothing but take upgrades and promotions (on the basis of more money for the 49ers out of the bigger paycheck sub I presume) you will be rewarded by knowing that the guys who did join will in fact keep their jobs and continue a career at CX.
And why is that? Because all the boorish rhetoric of the 49ers and their supporters about how the replacement workers will get their just rewards, how they will never work anywhere else in the world because of the 'S' word have held such little respect and meaning in the broad aviation community that finally a 49er has come on this board and admitted that in the end they (the 49ers) will agree to work alongside the joiners as long as they are made to suffer a little.
Remember guys, they don't want anyone to join this airline yet they themselves are willing to return and work with the people they have been excoriating all these months. Surely as such principled professionals they would not agree to work with the RW's or in fact ever return to a company that treated them so badly (not to mention taking a seat beside a veteran who took zero industrial action to support him)! Wrong, they jusy want a job flying.
If I was a 49er my issue would not be with the people who joined it would be with the leople who stayed.
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pilotabroad.... once again the drip, drip,drip of disinformation! CX management is quoted in many signed and notarised documents,including those lodged with the labor relations board, that it accepts that the HKAOA is the sole negotiating representative of pilots employed by CX, this stretches back to Mike Hardy, let alone the present lot.
Even John Findlay should be able to find these docs, even though he often seems to be unable to find his ass with both hands. Any attempt to 'deregister' the union from its sole negotiating position would surely lead to yet more litigation.....haven't you guys had enough?
Even John Findlay should be able to find these docs, even though he often seems to be unable to find his ass with both hands. Any attempt to 'deregister' the union from its sole negotiating position would surely lead to yet more litigation.....haven't you guys had enough?
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As a retiree after some 28 years with CX I can say I am disgusted by the company's behaviour in the sacking of those 49 individuals.
By the same token having flown with a handful of them (and knowing a dozen more of them) I can say in all honesty that I am not surprised some were sacked judging by their previous attitude and behaviour on occasion.
At the same time I know of a few guys there that did their jobs well and although one was rehired a few good men are still out of work (and worse still - Limbo).
Some very valid points have been made by both sides but let's face some facts:
The management must be seen to save face as their credibility will be severly undermined if they back down.
Dont even expect a backdown now after so long.
Secondly the recruitment ban has not seemed to work very effectively and as one soul mentioned very accurately, all it serves to do is to keep good people out and allow those who dont give a damn in.
Thirdly as mentioned,CX dont need a reason to terminate a contract as long as they fork out the 3 months termination pay then their legal (not moral) obligations are satisfied.
Fourthly I met a few F/O's recently that have had enough of paying the 4% but have stated its not worth withdrawing their HKAOA membership because of all the grief they'll receive from other members.
Sounds like the prospect of bullying may be alive just as it was in certain trade unions in Oz.
Pretty damned sad and as plastique mentioned its just served to divide the CX crew and HKAOA members.
The management must read this site and laugh themselves stupid as their plan to divide has reigned supreme!
The fact that members are paying bills for those 49 must really make those same managers go to bed at night with a smile on their face as it serves as the perfect vehicle to p!ss people off - the hip pocket - and all members are affected no less!
Sad as it is just move on, get on with your lives and cut the losses as this is an unwinable crusade.
You may well criticise my posting and disagree but where do the HKAOA members honestly see this going and for how much longer will the members be willing to give 4% of their salaries????
Perhaps the association president or committee would like to comment?
Enough is enough and as this protracted affair draws on the AOA membership will go down with it and further destabilise the pilot base.
Who will back down first?
Well it aint going to be the company - thats a certainty!
By the same token having flown with a handful of them (and knowing a dozen more of them) I can say in all honesty that I am not surprised some were sacked judging by their previous attitude and behaviour on occasion.
At the same time I know of a few guys there that did their jobs well and although one was rehired a few good men are still out of work (and worse still - Limbo).
Some very valid points have been made by both sides but let's face some facts:
The management must be seen to save face as their credibility will be severly undermined if they back down.
Dont even expect a backdown now after so long.
Secondly the recruitment ban has not seemed to work very effectively and as one soul mentioned very accurately, all it serves to do is to keep good people out and allow those who dont give a damn in.
Thirdly as mentioned,CX dont need a reason to terminate a contract as long as they fork out the 3 months termination pay then their legal (not moral) obligations are satisfied.
Fourthly I met a few F/O's recently that have had enough of paying the 4% but have stated its not worth withdrawing their HKAOA membership because of all the grief they'll receive from other members.
Sounds like the prospect of bullying may be alive just as it was in certain trade unions in Oz.
Pretty damned sad and as plastique mentioned its just served to divide the CX crew and HKAOA members.
The management must read this site and laugh themselves stupid as their plan to divide has reigned supreme!
The fact that members are paying bills for those 49 must really make those same managers go to bed at night with a smile on their face as it serves as the perfect vehicle to p!ss people off - the hip pocket - and all members are affected no less!
Sad as it is just move on, get on with your lives and cut the losses as this is an unwinable crusade.
You may well criticise my posting and disagree but where do the HKAOA members honestly see this going and for how much longer will the members be willing to give 4% of their salaries????
Perhaps the association president or committee would like to comment?
Enough is enough and as this protracted affair draws on the AOA membership will go down with it and further destabilise the pilot base.
Who will back down first?
Well it aint going to be the company - thats a certainty!
Last edited by 1013; 31st Dec 2002 at 23:44.
1013
I can't see how anyone will send a scud up your tailpipe for what was a pretty succinct summary.
As someone who saw most of the 70's and the 80's and then put some back on the table in the 90's you would appreciate that the best days are long gone. Indeed with some of the super payouts over HKD30m in the mid 90's one has to wonder what kind of fairy tale we were all living.
After all the gravy and tolerance of earlier times, the behaviour of the company in 2001 was a stark and fearful contrast indeed.
My take, however, is less Machiavellian than many, and that would therefore put me at loggerheads with a substantial body of folk who have joined in the 90's.
I believe that the whole mess was created by our fellow pilots in management and the subsequent inflexibility of the AOA.
As the airline continued to grow at an amazing bat, senior management could no longer take on the pastoral issues the way they used to until well into the 90's. They retreated to the big picture strategy and the numbers. Into that vacuum appeared an AOA beefing itself up with professional and traditional western-type union ' expertise'.
The implementation was largely delegated to our fearless leaders in flight ops. IMHO this group has generally been a strange blend of missionary and ambitious zealot. The methodology for 2001 was hatched in the prefects' room not the board room.
Once the dice were rolled, the boardroom had to back them. Indeed their spine was stiffened when the AOA publicly declared the management unfit to run the company. Sir Adrian took personal umbrage and the window for compromise closed so tight that not even a church mouse could squeeze through.
Once all the wheels came off, the trust and tolerance, so long a feature of the company, simply evaporated. The AOA painted itself into a corner from which it cannot escape in its current form. Management on the other hand has the horsepower to ride it out, albeit at a cost.
All this has been hashed over before but I agree with you that too much time has now passed to see the 49'er issue resolved in any way that will bring satisfaction to any of the parties.
The 'ban' has served only to weaken the AOA. The longer this drags on the more permanent will be the damage to the AOA and the working environment for all.
For those with only a few years to grin and bear it, it is just plain sad. For those with another 20 years of the same to look forward to, it is a tragedy.
Happy New Year....did you send the Aya Toller a Xmas card???
I can't see how anyone will send a scud up your tailpipe for what was a pretty succinct summary.
As someone who saw most of the 70's and the 80's and then put some back on the table in the 90's you would appreciate that the best days are long gone. Indeed with some of the super payouts over HKD30m in the mid 90's one has to wonder what kind of fairy tale we were all living.
After all the gravy and tolerance of earlier times, the behaviour of the company in 2001 was a stark and fearful contrast indeed.
My take, however, is less Machiavellian than many, and that would therefore put me at loggerheads with a substantial body of folk who have joined in the 90's.
I believe that the whole mess was created by our fellow pilots in management and the subsequent inflexibility of the AOA.
As the airline continued to grow at an amazing bat, senior management could no longer take on the pastoral issues the way they used to until well into the 90's. They retreated to the big picture strategy and the numbers. Into that vacuum appeared an AOA beefing itself up with professional and traditional western-type union ' expertise'.
The implementation was largely delegated to our fearless leaders in flight ops. IMHO this group has generally been a strange blend of missionary and ambitious zealot. The methodology for 2001 was hatched in the prefects' room not the board room.
Once the dice were rolled, the boardroom had to back them. Indeed their spine was stiffened when the AOA publicly declared the management unfit to run the company. Sir Adrian took personal umbrage and the window for compromise closed so tight that not even a church mouse could squeeze through.
Once all the wheels came off, the trust and tolerance, so long a feature of the company, simply evaporated. The AOA painted itself into a corner from which it cannot escape in its current form. Management on the other hand has the horsepower to ride it out, albeit at a cost.
All this has been hashed over before but I agree with you that too much time has now passed to see the 49'er issue resolved in any way that will bring satisfaction to any of the parties.
The 'ban' has served only to weaken the AOA. The longer this drags on the more permanent will be the damage to the AOA and the working environment for all.
For those with only a few years to grin and bear it, it is just plain sad. For those with another 20 years of the same to look forward to, it is a tragedy.
Happy New Year....did you send the Aya Toller a Xmas card???
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HFX, succinct and historically accurate.
Unfortunately the GC of the AOA are self motivated and look to the juvenile delinqeints who post on CPrune for approval of their mandate. This will not end before they are outed. Perhaps they could reflect on the measures dished out on 3 new recruits in L.Q. Fong a few nights ago......such people hide behind memberships like such because they are too weak to be seen in the open with their convictions for all to see. Pathetic is the only word that is printable on this forum.
Unfortunately the GC of the AOA are self motivated and look to the juvenile delinqeints who post on CPrune for approval of their mandate. This will not end before they are outed. Perhaps they could reflect on the measures dished out on 3 new recruits in L.Q. Fong a few nights ago......such people hide behind memberships like such because they are too weak to be seen in the open with their convictions for all to see. Pathetic is the only word that is printable on this forum.
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VR-HFX - a very accurate,down to earth and succint posting.
No - I cant take credit for the ayatollah or George Bush/Sadam Xmas cards.
Happy New Year to you and your families.
1013
No - I cant take credit for the ayatollah or George Bush/Sadam Xmas cards.
Happy New Year to you and your families.
1013