Cathays 49ers
Join Date: Dec 1998
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The ban is international. Whether you you break it is your business. Your life. Let’s drop the rhetoric. If you are an ALPA member, then you support the ban. If not, you should probably give up that expensive membership. Last time I checked, IF the ALPA representatives that YOU elected voted to support the ban, then you did too. It is that elected representative thing...
It does not matter what kind of words you use. The ban is there.
Did I miss something?
CODE OF ETHICS
------------------------------------------------------------------------
An Air Line Pilot will keep uppermost in his mind that the safety, comfort, and well-being of the passengers who entrust their lives to him are his first and greatest responsibility.
* He will never permit external pressures or personal desires to influence his judgment, nor will he knowingly do anything that could jeopardize flight safety.
* He will remember that an act of omission can be as hazardous as a deliberate act of commission, and he will not neglect any detail that contributes to the safety of his flight, or perform any operation in a negligent or careless manner.
* Consistent with flight safety, he will at all times operate his aircraft in a manner that will contribute to the comfort, peace of mind, and well-being of his passengers, instilling in them trust in him and the airline he represents.
* Once he has discharged his primary responsibility for the safety and comfort of his passengers, he will remember that they depend upon him to do all possible to deliver them to their destination at the scheduled time.
* If disaster should strike, he will take whatever action he deems necessary to protect the lives of his passengers and crew.
An Air Line Pilot will faithfully discharge the duty he owes the airline that employs him and whose salary makes possible his way of life.
* He will do all within his powers to operate his aircraft efficiently and on schedule in a manner that will not cause damage or unnecessary maintenance.
* He will respect the officers, directors, and supervisors of his airline, remembering that respect does not entail subservience.
* He will faithfully obey all lawful directives given by his supervisors, but will resist and, if necessary, refuse to obey any directives that, in his considered judgment, are not lawful or will adversely affect flight safety. He will remember that in the final analysis the responsibility for safe completion of the flight rests upon his shoulders.
* He will not knowingly falsify any log or record, nor will he condone such action by other crew members.
* He will remember that a full month’s salary demands a full and fair month’s work. On his days off, he will not engage in any occupation or activity that will diminish his efficiency or bring discredit to his profession.
* He will realize that he represents the airline to all who meet him and will at all times keep his personal appearance and conduct above reproach.
* He will give his airline, its officers, directors, and supervisors the full loyalty that is their due, and will refrain from speaking ill of them. If he feels it necessary to reveal and correct conditions that are not conducive to safe operations and harmonious relations, he will direct his criticism to the proper authorities within ALPA.
* He will hold his airline’s business secrets in confidence, and will take care that they are not improperly revealed.
An Air Line Pilot will accept the responsibilities as well as the rewards of command and will at all times so conduct himself both on duty and off as to instill and merit the confidence and respect of his crew, his fellow employees, and his associates within the profession.
* He will know and understand the duties of each member of his crew. If in command, he will be firm but fair, explicit yet tolerant of deviations that do not affect the safe and orderly completion of the flight. He will be efficient yet relaxed, so that the duties of the crew may be carried out in a harmonious manner.
* If in command, he will expect efficient performance of each crew member’s duties, yet he will overlook small discrepancies and refrain from unnecessary and destructive criticism, so that the crew member will retain his self-respect and cooperative attitude. A frank discussion of minor matters of technique and performance after the flight will create goodwill and a desire to be helpful, whereas sharp criticism and peremptory orders at the moment will result only in the breakdown of morale and an inefficient, halting performance of future duties.
* An Air Line Pilot will remember that his is a profession heavily dependent on training during regular operations and, if in command, will afford his flight crew members every reasonable opportunity, consistent with safety and efficiency, to learn and practice. He will endeavor to instill in his crew a sense of pride and responsibility. In making reports on the work and conduct of his crew members, he will avoid personal prejudices, make his reports factual and his criticisms constructive so that actions taken as a result of his reports will improve the knowledge and skill of his crew members, rather than bring discredit, endanger their livelihood, and threaten their standing in the profession.
* While in command, the Air Line Pilot will be mindful of the welfare of his crew. He will see to it that his crew are properly lodged and cared for, particularly during unusual operating conditions. When cancellations result in deadheading, he will ensure that proper arrangements are made for the transportation of his crew before he takes care of himself.
An Air Line Pilot will conduct his affairs with other members of the profession and with ALPA in such a manner as to bring credit to the profession and ALPA as well as to himself.
* He will not falsely or maliciously injure the professional reputation, prospects, or job security of another pilot, yet if he knows of professional incompetence or conduct detrimental to the profession or to ALPA, he will not shrink from revealing this to the proper authorities within ALPA, so that the weak member may be brought up to the standards demanded, or ALPA and the profession alike may be rid of one unworthy to share its rewards.
* He will conduct his affairs with ALPA and its members in accordance with the rules laid down in the Constitution and By-Laws of ALPA and with the policies and interpretations promulgated therefrom. Whenever possible, he will attend all meetings of ALPA open to him and will take an active part in its activities and in meetings of other groups calculated to improve air safety and the standing of the profession.
* An Air Line Pilot shall refrain from any action whereby, for his personal benefit or gain, he takes advantage of the confidence reposed in him by his fellow members. If he is called upon to represent ALPA in any dispute, he will do so to the best of his ability, fairly and fearlessly, relying on the influence and power of ALPA to protect him.
* He will regard himself as a debtor to his profession and ALPA, and will dedicate himself to their advancement. He will cooperate in the upholding of the profession by exchanging information and experience with his fellow pilots and by actively contributing to the work of professional groups and the technical press.
To an Air Line Pilot the honor of his profession is dear, and he will remember that his own character and conduct reflect honor or dishonor upon the profession.
* He will be a good citizen of his country, state, and community, taking an active part in their affairs, especially those dealing with the improvement of aviation facilities and the enhancement of air safety.
* He will conduct all his affairs in a manner that reflects credit on himself and his profession.
* He will remember that to his neighbors, friends, and acquaintances he represents both the profession and ALPA, and that his actions represent to them the conduct and character of all members of the profession and ALPA.
* He will realize that nothing more certainly fosters prejudices against and deprives the profession of its high public esteem and confidence than do breaches in the use of alcohol.
* He will not publish articles, give interviews, or permit his name to be used in any manner likely to bring discredit to another pilot, the airline industry,
the profession, or ALPA.
* He will continue to keep abreast of aviation developments so that his skill and judgment, which heavily depend on such knowledge, may be of the highest order.
Having Endeavored to his utmost to faithfully fulfill the obligations of the ALPA Code of Ethics and Canons for the Guidance of Air Line Pilots, a pilot may consider himself worthy to be called…an AIRLINE PILOT.
[From th ALPA website: http://www.alpa.org/alpa/DesktopModu...DocumentID=181]
It does not matter what kind of words you use. The ban is there.
Did I miss something?
CODE OF ETHICS
------------------------------------------------------------------------
An Air Line Pilot will keep uppermost in his mind that the safety, comfort, and well-being of the passengers who entrust their lives to him are his first and greatest responsibility.
* He will never permit external pressures or personal desires to influence his judgment, nor will he knowingly do anything that could jeopardize flight safety.
* He will remember that an act of omission can be as hazardous as a deliberate act of commission, and he will not neglect any detail that contributes to the safety of his flight, or perform any operation in a negligent or careless manner.
* Consistent with flight safety, he will at all times operate his aircraft in a manner that will contribute to the comfort, peace of mind, and well-being of his passengers, instilling in them trust in him and the airline he represents.
* Once he has discharged his primary responsibility for the safety and comfort of his passengers, he will remember that they depend upon him to do all possible to deliver them to their destination at the scheduled time.
* If disaster should strike, he will take whatever action he deems necessary to protect the lives of his passengers and crew.
An Air Line Pilot will faithfully discharge the duty he owes the airline that employs him and whose salary makes possible his way of life.
* He will do all within his powers to operate his aircraft efficiently and on schedule in a manner that will not cause damage or unnecessary maintenance.
* He will respect the officers, directors, and supervisors of his airline, remembering that respect does not entail subservience.
* He will faithfully obey all lawful directives given by his supervisors, but will resist and, if necessary, refuse to obey any directives that, in his considered judgment, are not lawful or will adversely affect flight safety. He will remember that in the final analysis the responsibility for safe completion of the flight rests upon his shoulders.
* He will not knowingly falsify any log or record, nor will he condone such action by other crew members.
* He will remember that a full month’s salary demands a full and fair month’s work. On his days off, he will not engage in any occupation or activity that will diminish his efficiency or bring discredit to his profession.
* He will realize that he represents the airline to all who meet him and will at all times keep his personal appearance and conduct above reproach.
* He will give his airline, its officers, directors, and supervisors the full loyalty that is their due, and will refrain from speaking ill of them. If he feels it necessary to reveal and correct conditions that are not conducive to safe operations and harmonious relations, he will direct his criticism to the proper authorities within ALPA.
* He will hold his airline’s business secrets in confidence, and will take care that they are not improperly revealed.
An Air Line Pilot will accept the responsibilities as well as the rewards of command and will at all times so conduct himself both on duty and off as to instill and merit the confidence and respect of his crew, his fellow employees, and his associates within the profession.
* He will know and understand the duties of each member of his crew. If in command, he will be firm but fair, explicit yet tolerant of deviations that do not affect the safe and orderly completion of the flight. He will be efficient yet relaxed, so that the duties of the crew may be carried out in a harmonious manner.
* If in command, he will expect efficient performance of each crew member’s duties, yet he will overlook small discrepancies and refrain from unnecessary and destructive criticism, so that the crew member will retain his self-respect and cooperative attitude. A frank discussion of minor matters of technique and performance after the flight will create goodwill and a desire to be helpful, whereas sharp criticism and peremptory orders at the moment will result only in the breakdown of morale and an inefficient, halting performance of future duties.
* An Air Line Pilot will remember that his is a profession heavily dependent on training during regular operations and, if in command, will afford his flight crew members every reasonable opportunity, consistent with safety and efficiency, to learn and practice. He will endeavor to instill in his crew a sense of pride and responsibility. In making reports on the work and conduct of his crew members, he will avoid personal prejudices, make his reports factual and his criticisms constructive so that actions taken as a result of his reports will improve the knowledge and skill of his crew members, rather than bring discredit, endanger their livelihood, and threaten their standing in the profession.
* While in command, the Air Line Pilot will be mindful of the welfare of his crew. He will see to it that his crew are properly lodged and cared for, particularly during unusual operating conditions. When cancellations result in deadheading, he will ensure that proper arrangements are made for the transportation of his crew before he takes care of himself.
An Air Line Pilot will conduct his affairs with other members of the profession and with ALPA in such a manner as to bring credit to the profession and ALPA as well as to himself.
* He will not falsely or maliciously injure the professional reputation, prospects, or job security of another pilot, yet if he knows of professional incompetence or conduct detrimental to the profession or to ALPA, he will not shrink from revealing this to the proper authorities within ALPA, so that the weak member may be brought up to the standards demanded, or ALPA and the profession alike may be rid of one unworthy to share its rewards.
* He will conduct his affairs with ALPA and its members in accordance with the rules laid down in the Constitution and By-Laws of ALPA and with the policies and interpretations promulgated therefrom. Whenever possible, he will attend all meetings of ALPA open to him and will take an active part in its activities and in meetings of other groups calculated to improve air safety and the standing of the profession.
* An Air Line Pilot shall refrain from any action whereby, for his personal benefit or gain, he takes advantage of the confidence reposed in him by his fellow members. If he is called upon to represent ALPA in any dispute, he will do so to the best of his ability, fairly and fearlessly, relying on the influence and power of ALPA to protect him.
* He will regard himself as a debtor to his profession and ALPA, and will dedicate himself to their advancement. He will cooperate in the upholding of the profession by exchanging information and experience with his fellow pilots and by actively contributing to the work of professional groups and the technical press.
To an Air Line Pilot the honor of his profession is dear, and he will remember that his own character and conduct reflect honor or dishonor upon the profession.
* He will be a good citizen of his country, state, and community, taking an active part in their affairs, especially those dealing with the improvement of aviation facilities and the enhancement of air safety.
* He will conduct all his affairs in a manner that reflects credit on himself and his profession.
* He will remember that to his neighbors, friends, and acquaintances he represents both the profession and ALPA, and that his actions represent to them the conduct and character of all members of the profession and ALPA.
* He will realize that nothing more certainly fosters prejudices against and deprives the profession of its high public esteem and confidence than do breaches in the use of alcohol.
* He will not publish articles, give interviews, or permit his name to be used in any manner likely to bring discredit to another pilot, the airline industry,
the profession, or ALPA.
* He will continue to keep abreast of aviation developments so that his skill and judgment, which heavily depend on such knowledge, may be of the highest order.
Having Endeavored to his utmost to faithfully fulfill the obligations of the ALPA Code of Ethics and Canons for the Guidance of Air Line Pilots, a pilot may consider himself worthy to be called…an AIRLINE PILOT.
[From th ALPA website: http://www.alpa.org/alpa/DesktopModu...DocumentID=181]
Last edited by BlueEagle; 30th Jan 2003 at 21:04.
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SOLO - Credits Please!
SOLO - Would you please either:
1. Confirm that the 'Code of Ethics' you have posted is your own work, or
2. Give the appropriate credit to your source by editing it in.
Sorry to be a pain but this has to be done in order to avoid copy-right issues that could turn into nasty law suites!
many thanks, (I do appreciate that the final paragraph indicates it has come from an ALPA source, so just quoting that document will do fine).
BlueEagle - Moderator
OK SOLO the deed is done, thanks jtr.
1. Confirm that the 'Code of Ethics' you have posted is your own work, or
2. Give the appropriate credit to your source by editing it in.
Sorry to be a pain but this has to be done in order to avoid copy-right issues that could turn into nasty law suites!
many thanks, (I do appreciate that the final paragraph indicates it has come from an ALPA source, so just quoting that document will do fine).
BlueEagle - Moderator
OK SOLO the deed is done, thanks jtr.
Last edited by BlueEagle; 30th Jan 2003 at 21:05.
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Code of Ethics
Mr. Blue Eagle:
Whether this is from SOLO’s own writing or from ALPA’s Code of Ethics, it is one of the best posts that I have read on here in a long time. It is something that we should all take to heart.
Turbo Beaver
Whether this is from SOLO’s own writing or from ALPA’s Code of Ethics, it is one of the best posts that I have read on here in a long time. It is something that we should all take to heart.
Turbo Beaver
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Not a huge sand box but very nice winters anymore
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Having looked through ALPA's press release history for the past two years I cannot see anything in them that implies ALPA is supporting the AOA. The only thing they have done is tell the US Congress about the dispute where I am sure they were very worried about it as they have over 7000 pilots on furlough
I also cannot see in the code of ethics where it says
* If I am a weakdick I will encourage others to fight my battles for me.
* If they do not fight my battles for me, I will call them Scab's, Oh excuse me I mean Replacement Workers.
* While others fight my battles and I call others silly names , I will accept upgrades which will enhance my own career.
As FaPoGai says "Cobblers"
I also cannot see in the code of ethics where it says
* If I am a weakdick I will encourage others to fight my battles for me.
* If they do not fight my battles for me, I will call them Scab's, Oh excuse me I mean Replacement Workers.
* While others fight my battles and I call others silly names , I will accept upgrades which will enhance my own career.
As FaPoGai says "Cobblers"
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...other than this letter...
http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/informa...0%20USALPA.pdf
...oh and this one...
http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/informa...ton%20Post.pdf
...or this one...
http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/informa...%20Support.pdf
...or maybe...
http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/informa...%20Airline.pdf
http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/informa...ne%20Worth.pdf
http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/informa...A%20Letter.pdf
...and this article about CPA in the ALPA Airline Pilot...
http://www.alpa.org/alpa/DesktopModu...DocumentID=414
http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/informa...0%20USALPA.pdf
...oh and this one...
http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/informa...ton%20Post.pdf
...or this one...
http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/informa...%20Support.pdf
...or maybe...
http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/informa...%20Airline.pdf
http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/informa...ne%20Worth.pdf
http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/informa...A%20Letter.pdf
...and this article about CPA in the ALPA Airline Pilot...
http://www.alpa.org/alpa/DesktopModu...DocumentID=414
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Most of those letters must be covered in dust now they have been written so long ago.
As saudipc-9 said. Where are the ethics about using other people( many without jobs) to try and achieve when you are not prepared to do anything except take upgrades and look after yourself.
What a load of cobblers
As saudipc-9 said. Where are the ethics about using other people( many without jobs) to try and achieve when you are not prepared to do anything except take upgrades and look after yourself.
What a load of cobblers
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most unions that get emotionally sidetracked from the real issues in a dispute usually end up defunct. it is sad to think that the AOA will eventually have more pilots outside their union working for Cathay and will IFALPA really give a damn ?
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I don't understand that the members of the AOA can look themselves in the mirror, when they say that they twill accept a promotion because it will generate more money for the 49'ers.
I think it's a good thought, but if I should believe that your intensions are heartfelt then I really think you should do it this way: Take your promtions, take your increase in salary according to seniority. Take your income for the month when the 49'ers left the company. Then give all the extra money to the 49'ers. In other words: Freeze your salary at the stage it was when they got sacked and give all the rest to the poor guys. That would make me believe in your intensions, for only by doing that would you support your former colleagues without getting any personal gain from it. If you did that I'm sure you would get a lot more support for your ban from the world outside of CX.
As so many people before me has said: Why should unemployed pilots support your ban, when you're gaining from it??? People don't want to fight your fight, if you don't fight along side with them.
I'm out of a job by the end of April. Are the 49'ers going to be happier because my life turns into misery? Wouldn't it be better for them if I joined and paied my percentage to their benefit?
The way things are right now I think you can compare the ban with Communism: It's a REALLY good principle, but it DOESN'T WORK in the real world.
That's my humble opinion.
Best of luck to you all (AOA member or not) and may the dispute be resolved soon.
If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.
I think it's a good thought, but if I should believe that your intensions are heartfelt then I really think you should do it this way: Take your promtions, take your increase in salary according to seniority. Take your income for the month when the 49'ers left the company. Then give all the extra money to the 49'ers. In other words: Freeze your salary at the stage it was when they got sacked and give all the rest to the poor guys. That would make me believe in your intensions, for only by doing that would you support your former colleagues without getting any personal gain from it. If you did that I'm sure you would get a lot more support for your ban from the world outside of CX.
As so many people before me has said: Why should unemployed pilots support your ban, when you're gaining from it??? People don't want to fight your fight, if you don't fight along side with them.
I'm out of a job by the end of April. Are the 49'ers going to be happier because my life turns into misery? Wouldn't it be better for them if I joined and paied my percentage to their benefit?
The way things are right now I think you can compare the ban with Communism: It's a REALLY good principle, but it DOESN'T WORK in the real world.
That's my humble opinion.
Best of luck to you all (AOA member or not) and may the dispute be resolved soon.
If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.
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Dr.S
Very good point. In fact by taking anything over and above what their earnings were when the 49er's were terminated is tantamount to profiteering from the situation and as such the same moral authority that the AOA labels the new joiners with the "s" word can now in fact be levied against anyone who has not donated their increased gains to support the 49er's.
A rebuttal may raise the question of 'what about the normal progress of expansion that would have happened had the 49er situation not ocurred' is a moot point because this could also support the argument for the new joiners.
It is important to note that the 'S' word is extremely potent and should remain on hollowed ground. In fact the 'S' word is to labour relations what the 'rape' word is to intimate relations or the word 'perjury' is to activities in a court room.
It is a life changing label that seriously affects any individual with whom it may be attached. For this reason it is imperative that it be used correctly. The wrong use (or insinuation - as that is the same) is a denigration to all who are members of a union. It completely dilutes the effectiveness of the word in future activities.
Let there be no doubt - anyone who crosses a union picket line of striking members who are forfeiting money, benefits, promotion etc. is a ...b But by insinuating or calling someone this (cprune) incorrectly (which is happening in this case) is an insult to every person who has ever gone on strike. (In the U.S. Continental, United, Northwest, EASTERN, and the list goes on)
Dear AOA , For the sake of the rest of us pilots (and wannabees) dotted around the globe who want to fly and earn a decent wage please stop corrupting the industrial action process by targeting a group of eager young 'uns who are donig nothing more and more importantly nothing less than you in the pursuit of a better life.
Note:before any of you go running off looking for a definition of the word, here it is;
From Random Houses "Websters English College Dictionary" circa 1999/2000-
"A worker who refuses to join a labour union or to participate in a union strike, who takes a striking worker's place on the job, or the like."
TO THE NEW JOINERS:You have done nothing of the above - so when you are in the third seat of the 340 or 400 for hours of silence you can take solace in the fact that neither have the two guys in front of you.
Respectfully
FLIION
Very good point. In fact by taking anything over and above what their earnings were when the 49er's were terminated is tantamount to profiteering from the situation and as such the same moral authority that the AOA labels the new joiners with the "s" word can now in fact be levied against anyone who has not donated their increased gains to support the 49er's.
A rebuttal may raise the question of 'what about the normal progress of expansion that would have happened had the 49er situation not ocurred' is a moot point because this could also support the argument for the new joiners.
It is important to note that the 'S' word is extremely potent and should remain on hollowed ground. In fact the 'S' word is to labour relations what the 'rape' word is to intimate relations or the word 'perjury' is to activities in a court room.
It is a life changing label that seriously affects any individual with whom it may be attached. For this reason it is imperative that it be used correctly. The wrong use (or insinuation - as that is the same) is a denigration to all who are members of a union. It completely dilutes the effectiveness of the word in future activities.
Let there be no doubt - anyone who crosses a union picket line of striking members who are forfeiting money, benefits, promotion etc. is a ...b But by insinuating or calling someone this (cprune) incorrectly (which is happening in this case) is an insult to every person who has ever gone on strike. (In the U.S. Continental, United, Northwest, EASTERN, and the list goes on)
Dear AOA , For the sake of the rest of us pilots (and wannabees) dotted around the globe who want to fly and earn a decent wage please stop corrupting the industrial action process by targeting a group of eager young 'uns who are donig nothing more and more importantly nothing less than you in the pursuit of a better life.
Note:before any of you go running off looking for a definition of the word, here it is;
From Random Houses "Websters English College Dictionary" circa 1999/2000-
"A worker who refuses to join a labour union or to participate in a union strike, who takes a striking worker's place on the job, or the like."
TO THE NEW JOINERS:You have done nothing of the above - so when you are in the third seat of the 340 or 400 for hours of silence you can take solace in the fact that neither have the two guys in front of you.
Respectfully
FLIION
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fliion & Dr._Strangelove,
Excellent posts both!! It is really about time the HKAOA realized that they are fighting a losing battle and fighting it very poorly.
The time has come for everyone to put aside previous anger and rhetoric. Unite and start again, cus this war is finished and you are only making fools of yourselves!
Excellent posts both!! It is really about time the HKAOA realized that they are fighting a losing battle and fighting it very poorly.
The time has come for everyone to put aside previous anger and rhetoric. Unite and start again, cus this war is finished and you are only making fools of yourselves!
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HKAOA
YOU GUYS ARE NOT LEARNING THE LESSONS OF HISTORY. YOU'D BETTER GET THE "REPLACEMENT WORKERS"UNDER YOUR UMBRELLA. A NEW UNION FOR THE "REPLACEMENT WORKERS" WILL GIVE YOU A PROBLEM,YOU CANNOTT HANDLE.
