not welcome at CX

[shortly]

My brothers in the AOA. Your leaders have lost the plot. So has senior management at CX to this end. Where are you going to finish up? The pay check that comes in each month is worth more than a little consideration. Have you forgotten all the ills of your previous employment - probably you have. The 49ers are martyrs to stupidity and nothing less, rostering etc was the issue before they were hammered and little else has changed. I know of no airline where rostering is not the prime bane of contention. Please tell of one where it is not. Membership of the union is falling, costs are remaining constant Christ guys wake up.

[BusyB]

What`s the problem Shortly. The AOA is not taking any action only waiting for the court cases to run their course. Surely it will be good to know exactly where we stand with HK law. We`ve waited 14 months, 3 more won`t make much difference. There are a lot of us, both members and non-members, who have stayed out of the childish swapping of insults and are waiting to find out exactly what a contract is in HKG!!

[hughorgen]

acm says rudeness !!!

Who was rude to you ????

Does one become deliniated as 'rude' for finding your comments offensive and therefore stating that fact ???

If you wish to post offensive statements about young pilots on this site be mature enough for others to clarify the facts from another viewpoint !

[HUSTLER]

How dare you refer to us as "brother's"

YOU deserted your fallen brother's for financial reasons, dont you ever use that term again

HUSTLER

[shortly]

Hustler, I haven't deserted anyone. In my dealings, few and far between as they are, with senior management I routinely attempt to give support to the 49ers, there was a time when I believed my opinions were being listened to and hoped for the return of some of my brothers. And all aircrew are my brothers - and sisters, I have been working in the air for a long time and in many places. I have always attempted to be rational and reasonable in my pontifications. I sincerely hope the AOA is not pinning their faith in the legal systems elsewhere as a means to solving this dispute. Whatever the outcome of the court cases, and I don't hold much hope for an AOA victory anywhere as the action taken by the company, draconian as it was, was nonetheless legal in our system here and did not contravene any Hong Kong labour laws. The mere facts that the ban remains in place, contract compliance - work to rule - is still in vogue and the court actions themselves supported by the AOA are all examples of industrial action against the company. The company will never return to the negotiating table until all those things are dropped and there is a change in AOA leadership. Each day the AOA is getting weaker (IMHO) both financially and as a representative body for the pilots. Isn't it time to think outside the box?

[BusyB]

Shortly, If you and the company feel that using the mechanisms of the Justice system is Industrial action you really are morally bankrupt. The company has settled a number of actions before they reached the courtroom because there was a danger they would lose and set a precedent. If the AOA/ Individuals lose at least we will know exactly where we stand as at present assurances/contracts are made and broken routinely. In the meantime lets hope that honesty and integrity will count for something.

[shortly]

Morally bankrupt? If the court actions were personally funded by the members concerned - totally - and instigated by them individually then I would agree. But as these actions were determined by the union and funded, in the main, by the union - then how can it not be a form of industrial action? And I agree that honesty and integrity are the lost characteristics here, but lost by which of the parties involved?

[Liam Gallagher]

Shortly,

Putting the litigation regarding the 49ers to one side; the flag ship piece of litigation is what remains of HCMP 1679 of 1999 and the further litigation regarding Clause 22. If you don't know what this is, I suggest you do some research.

If you do not what it is, you will also be aware that Clause 22 came about as a result of "negotations" with the company and the conditions of Clause 22 were abandoned by the company when they became uncceptable to them. If you are not prepared to litigate to enforce such Clauses, why bother negotiating them in the first place?

Indeed, why bother with negotiation. Under your proposals, any new "AOA management" would have what tools to negotiate with? ...begging per chance???

[BusyB]

I think you are deliberately missing the point. If you take out legal protection insurance it does not mean that the insurer is taking industrial action when you call in the insurance. AOA/IFALPA membership is there to support you when you need help. Court action is not Industrial action, it is the action that you take through the local judicial process. Otherwise you are saying that employers are above the law when it comes to dealing with their staff. Oops, that is what you are saying!!

[mole]

Shortly,

I fear your slip is showing once again.

Of course the cases regarding breach of contract are being funded by the members concerned. Note the word members Shortly because it is the members who are paying up to get a decision from the Hong Kong courts to determine exactly what a contract in Hong Kong means. Note also that if the members win a judgement then non members will also benefit. You are obviously quite happy to be a free loader but a very significant majority are not. Morally bankrupt very aptly sums up your attitude.

[acm]

hughorgen

I am not surprised to see in your profile that your occupation is being "drunk".
You may disagree with me, but it is not necessary to call me a donkey or an asses like you've done in one of your previous post.

End of the story

[BusyB]

Shortly, I feel I must point out that whilst you write about constructive arguments on threads you seem to opt out when faced with a logical response! Its a shame really as it smacks of a closed mind.

[shortly]

BusyB. I have enjoyed reading your posts and see much of the logic in your argument. Perhaps I made too much of the 'morally bankrupt' comments that seemed to be flying my way. They hurt as I think that I am a very moral person. I am not in the 'know' as to what, where, when and how many court actions are pending. If the AOA litigant wins in Hong Kong then that is one thing and something would come of that. But you and I both know deep down that any court case in Hong Kong over these matters will go with the company. The court cases overseas are another thing/s, it is my opinion that even if the AOA litigants win all those cases then the findings will not be enforceable in Hong Kong and the company will ignore them. Perhaps a bit of good PR for the AOA - you would think - but remember that we expatriates are the minority here and the locals could not care less about what happens in court rooms OS or what happens to expatriate conditions in Hong Kong. Other than silently cheering every time an expatriate benefit is lost. I don't like lawyers and I am sad at the rise in litigation in general around the world. Did you know that even in the middle ages people said there was a special place in hell reserved exclusively for lawyers.

[Liam Gallagher]

Shortly,

For someone who admits to not being in the "know" regarding AOA litigation; you seem mighty keen to comment on it.

Makes me wonder what else you comment upon whilst not being in the "know".

[6feetunder]

Unenforceable? Ask Emirates about the jet that was impounded to satisfy a UK court decision. In the US CX has almost 30 flights a week into California, methinks they will miss one of them if it doesn't come back.

Very enforceable.