Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Dear GH & CK

Old 24th Jun 2022, 17:47
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: South Africa
Posts: 1
Dear GH & CK

A polite ‘riposte’ to your recent public comments..

“It would also be an incorrect statement for me to say that COS18 is not one of the reasons”. Actually, it isn't the only reason but it is the main one. With appropriate remuneration, a significant number of your Pilot’s would have remained.

“Deeply regretful of the turnover rates..”

With circa 90 resignations in the last two months alone and hundreds more to come by the end of the year, I find it surprising that, despite having limited training capacity, your sole focus appears to be on recruitment with seemingly no attention paid to retention.

A CN1, FO1 and SO1 are decidedly cheaper than a CN4, FO2 and SO2 but without a valid licence all are of limited use.

(Note for pilots; it will take approximately 12-14 years to move from CN1 to CN4; 24-28 years from your joining date..)

I do hope your Training Plans are conservative given many Senior staff will be leaving at the end of the year. In fact, it is likely you could have as little as 2000 pilots overall, given the current constraints and the closure of the US Base at the end of August.

The first of your direct entry candidates will realistically not become available until late 22/early 23 and none of your recent Cadets will be available until late 2023.
I understand 300 Cadets/yr initially. Your turnover rate will likely match that number.

Remember, many of your currently employed Cadets have passports from other countries too.

So, Direct Entry pilots will be needed.

“It’s a competitive package for Hong Kong Pilots….” Other than a small handful, you will not be hiring from Hong Kong, so in turn, you will need to be globally competitive particularly against the US market.

As a place to live, Hong Kong is no longer as desirable as it once was, particularly for families.

At least 50% (conservative) of your current pilot workforce are on a hold file with rival airlines or are actively applying elsewhere.

“COS 18 has been adjusted a number of times to increase certain allowances and benefits along the way” “Our desire is to ensure that COS18 remains competitive..” Actually you’ve adjusted it many times. Only once, however, did it benefit your pilot workforce. The tiny ‘improvements’ were met with universal derision.

With a strong balance sheet (compliments are due here, this truly is remarkable), the last of the basings closed and your cost base at historically low levels, one can only surmise what your next step might be..

Respectfully

Zig Zag

Either of you are most welcome to reply here.

Last edited by zigzag88; 26th Jun 2022 at 11:46.
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Old 24th Jun 2022, 23:04
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: HK
Posts: 14
With some Second Officers approaching seven years of service, it's nothing short of disgusting that CX is actively seeking external direct entry First Officers.
This is a good indicator of how much the company care for staff and their families.
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Old 24th Jun 2022, 23:53
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 32
With the amount of local second officers reaching 4-5 years of service, I wonder why the HKAOA is not actively looking to use that as a reason to block non-hk resident DEFOs from obtaining visas. The dragon guys got the immigration department to make sure they were hired before any more visas were renewed, its possible the same can be done for upgrades? Its to every rank's benefit if DEFOs are blocked. Without DEFOs everyone is harder to replace.
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Old 25th Jun 2022, 03:30
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2022
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 8
that is a great point/ idea
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Old 25th Jun 2022, 03:32
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2022
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 8
great idea but the trouble is all the SOs quit the union after 7 years of being let down again and again and again. but if anyone is left in it then they should try this.
Without DEFO the company recruitment plans and thus chance of growing are in ruins
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Old 25th Jun 2022, 03:49
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HKG
Posts: 336
Totally agree. Even if no SOs are left in the AOA, this is something the AOA should take up with immigration. The company has created the pilot shortage. Every direct entry pilot takes a promotion from an existing employee - regardless of the BS spin from the company.

Regardless of what the AOA does, this is something which should be brought to the attention of immigration.
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Old 25th Jun 2022, 04:08
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 20
‘COS18 remains competitive for HK,’ is absolute nonsense.

COS18 will only ever be remotely competitive if the airline is flying a full schedule and pilots can earn productivity pay, which is absolutely not the case right now or at any time in the near future.

Large productivity pay is an pre-condition to the success of COS18.

So any DEFO or other recruit who is promised this competitive contract needs to realise that he or she must first spend a couple of years helping the airline rebuild towards a full schedule before cashing in any form of decent salary.

That’s not a great pitch for recruiting pilots.
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Old 25th Jun 2022, 07:12
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Asia
Posts: 146
You guys must be new here. You want the AOA to do something? What have they done for the past three years? They can't even issue a press release to counter the BS posted in the papers about the evil covid carrying pilots and the huge pay raises we are receiving. The AOA is a lame duck, don't rely on them for anything.
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Old 25th Jun 2022, 08:14
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: one country, one system
Age: 54
Posts: 403
To say the contract is not competitive while at the same time not leaving is contradictory.
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Old 25th Jun 2022, 08:38
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Oztrailia
Posts: 2,927
Amazing Cathay has any flight crew really.

good luck, you’ll need it.
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Old 25th Jun 2022, 12:21
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 7
This month I’ve dedicated 84 hours to the company, with only 36 of those hours recognised (block) - so based after doing the maths, I’m getting $700hkd per hour! And that’s not including the OTE or the test and hold or the copious amount of paperwork required just to leave and come back

Last edited by Babyjet_dododo; 25th Jun 2022 at 21:35.
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Old 25th Jun 2022, 14:23
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Cesspit
Posts: 356
The HKAOA is largely ineffective as the General Committee is controlled by a handful of egotistical individuals who are on personal vendettas.

That doesn’t mean we are ineffective industrially. The DPA didn’t contact the Immigration Department. They’d been dissolved by then. It was motivated and honourable individuals who wrote compelling letters to the Director of Immigration who influenced management’s recruiting strategy. Dozens of letters were written.

If you’re waiting for the GC to solve your perceived problems (and your problems aren’t their problems) then stick to having a whine on anonymous forums.
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Old 25th Jun 2022, 22:18
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: somewhere above the sea
Posts: 197
For those of you who chose to remain, please understand that the company acknowledges they have a staffing problem, yet they continue to allow and encourage the GMA side of the business to let clerks treat pilots like something they’ve scrapped off the bottom of their shoe.

Perhaps it’s worth considering that if they are going to continue to treat pilots this way in the midst of a crewing crisis, then they are unlikely to ever improve. IE, if not now, when ?

So if you’re staying there hoping that they’ll mend their ways because they’ll be left with no choice, you’re gravely mistaken.

There are only 2 choices; stay and accept they’re incompetent bafoons who treat you like shit and will do forever, or leave, cut the umbilical cord, free yourself of the toxicity, and watch from the lifeboat as they steam full speed into the iceberg. Simple.
ron burgandy is offline  
Old 25th Jun 2022, 22:56
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 737
Simple

Originally Posted by ron burgandy View Post
For those of you who chose to remain, please understand that the company acknowledges they have a staffing problem, yet they continue to allow and encourage the GMA side of the business to let clerks treat pilots like something they’ve scrapped off the bottom of their shoe.

Perhaps it’s worth considering that if they are going to continue to treat pilots this way in the midst of a crewing crisis, then they are unlikely to ever improve. IE, if not now, when ?

So if you’re staying there hoping that they’ll mend their ways because they’ll be left with no choice, you’re gravely mistaken.

There are only 2 choices; stay and accept they’re incompetent bafoons who treat you like shit and will do forever, or leave, cut the umbilical cord, free yourself of the toxicity, and watch from the lifeboat as they steam full speed into the iceberg. Simple.
WHAT RON SAYS ‼️‼️
Flex88 is offline  
Old 26th Jun 2022, 04:26
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 32
Originally Posted by Progress Wanchai View Post
The HKAOA is largely ineffective as the General Committee is controlled by a handful of egotistical individuals who are on personal vendettas.

That doesn’t mean we are ineffective industrially. The DPA didn’t contact the Immigration Department. They’d been dissolved by then. It was motivated and honourable individuals who wrote compelling letters to the Director of Immigration who influenced management’s recruiting strategy. Dozens of letters were written.

If you’re waiting for the GC to solve your perceived problems (and your problems aren’t their problems) then stick to having a whine on anonymous forums.
how responsive is the HKAOA to emails? instead of waiting for them to do something would asking them to do it make any difference?
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Old 27th Jun 2022, 12:28
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Afganistan
Posts: 84
With WW3 looking more and more like a possibility, recruitment and retention will soon be the least of CXit’s problems

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/27/russ...ss-forces.html

https://news.yahoo.com/north-korea-s...061041544.html
Cury Lamb is offline  
Old 27th Jun 2022, 12:53
  #17 (permalink)  
hyg
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: hong kong
Posts: 166
Originally Posted by Cury Lamb View Post
With WW3 looking more and more like a possibility, recruitment and retention will soon be the least of CXit’s problems

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/27/russ...ss-forces.html

https://news.yahoo.com/north-korea-s...061041544.html

Fat Boy Kim is like the kid who tries to be the cool kid in the corner of a classroom, doing all sorts of stuff to attract attention. But everyone's focus is actually on the big bully sitting next to him, wondering when that Big Bully is going to beat the crap outta the little guy sitting just on the other side.
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Old 27th Jun 2022, 13:34
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: LA
Posts: 160
Originally Posted by Cury Lamb View Post
With WW3 looking more and more like a possibility, recruitment and retention will soon be the least of CXit’s problems

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/27/russ...ss-forces.html

https://news.yahoo.com/north-korea-s...061041544.html
Why is CX and HKG the only airline and country affected by WW3?
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Old 28th Jun 2022, 07:07
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Gerloz
Posts: 699
Originally Posted by hyg View Post
Fat Boy Kim is like the kid who tries to be the cool kid in the corner of a classroom, doing all sorts of stuff to attract attention. But everyone's focus is actually on the big bully sitting next to him, wondering when that Big Bully is going to beat the crap outta the little guy sitting just on the other side.
From memory, the fat kid in the corner of my classroom didn’t have a nascent nuclear weapons programme under way, nor had he had one, have been just deranged enough to use it.
MENELAUS is online now  
Old 28th Jun 2022, 14:26
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: HK
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by MENELAUS View Post
From memory, the fat kid in the corner of my classroom didn’t have a nascent nuclear weapons programme under way, nor had he had one, have been just deranged enough to use it.
There's only been one nation deranged enough to use these things on civilians.
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