Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Fragrant Harbour
Reload this Page >

Ex KA captains being offered JFO position

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Ex KA captains being offered JFO position

Old 10th Jul 2021, 04:44
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: HKG
Posts: 38
disingenuous thread title

‘Ex KA captains being offered JFO position’
WTF? No such thing as a JFO these days in CX.
CRWCRW is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2021, 05:33
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: home
Posts: 399
The mainland isnít tough. You do as youíre told. Thereís a couple of quirks to it, but I can happily report that all of my former KA colleagues found it fairly straightforward.
You would have to be some sort of useful idiot to believe that, terrain, weather, ATC speaking in Mandarin or level 3 English, metres and/or QFE, crap controlling with multiple runway changes in the last 50 miles. Straightforward? Sure I guess if you were one of the crew of the Apollo 13 it may seem that way.
Of course after operating in that environment 150 times a year you get comfortable (or worse complacent) but it's anything other than straightforward. I believe IOSA would back me up on that
airdualbleedfault is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2021, 07:23
  #63 (permalink)  
swh

Eidolon
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Some hole
Posts: 2,063
This is all just made up rubbish, there hasn’t been an airliner accident in the PRC for over a decade, all accidents by PRC carriers happen outside the PRC. IOSA does not support any notion that flying in China is difficult or dangerous, the PRC spends big on infrastructure, they continue to open new massive airports like Chengdu Tianfu International Airport. The county has radar coverage everywhere, runways are long and wide, good lights, and ILS. They plan to have another 120 airports the size of Chengdu Tianfu open in the next 10 years.

KA promoted some new joiners to CN in under a year, PRC airlines employed DEC contractors on the A320/737 they flew around accident free, they even put 200 hr pilots in the RHS of these narrow bodies.

How any KA pilot could have done 150 PRC trips a year is beyond me, two months of leave and all those other days off.
swh is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2021, 09:27
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: All over
Posts: 186
10 months solid flying, minimum off days, 2-3 sectors every working day, that’s how. The ‘new’ joiners that were promoted to captain in under a year almost all had previous China experience, and almost all had substantial airbus experience.
cx’s demerit points in China tell a different story.

Last edited by fly1981; 10th Jul 2021 at 09:43.
fly1981 is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2021, 10:09
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Fragrant Harbour
Posts: 4,757
This is all just made up rubbish, there hasnít been an airliner accident in the PRC for over a decade
I mentioned it's a high threat environment. It's not just about safety (or perceived safety in the PRC's case). It's very stressful, political and confrontational on top of the factors airdualblledfault mentioned. When KA conducted a fatigue survey some ten years ago, one interesting metric was that flying in the PRC was more stressful that the majority of their other destinations by a factor of two. I've flown in every part of the world except Aus and NZ (perhaps that's my problem?) and I would say the 20 years I spent flying in China was the worst. If you think you can start an operation almost from scratch in this environment without issues, you're deluded. The CX management will know and realize the increase in threats to their operation; they would be negligent not to use their best resources to mitigate them. And no accidents in a decade? Not correct.
Dan Winterland is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2021, 13:24
  #66 (permalink)  
swh

Eidolon
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Some hole
Posts: 2,063
fly1981

Hyperbole, KA had destinations in many countries, the minority of destinations were in the PRC, doing this in my head so forgive me if I forget any
India - 2
Nepal - 1
Bangladesh - 1
Myanmar - 1
Thailand - 3
Cambodia - 2
Vietnam - 2
Malaysia - 4
Indonesia - 2
PRC - 25
Taiwan - 3
Philippines - 2
Japan - 9
South Korea - 2

No KA pilot was doing 150 sectors a year into the PRC. That claim like many others on this thread on the difficulty and dangers of flying into the PRC, the difficulty of flying an A320, the superiority of KA pilots etc are all baseless. We all know it, grasping at straws is unbecoming.

The hard earned professional respect and courtesy that KA pilots earned over the years is being thrown away in minutes with these obviously false claims.
swh is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2021, 14:11
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong, SAR.
Posts: 166
Finally some sense into this conversation.
Oasis is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2021, 14:39
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Lonely planet
Posts: 56
airdualbleedfault

What a crock of hyped up nonsense; as for terrain you're under radar control all the time in China, even low temperature corrections are factored in for terrain avoidance; with weather, in China the whole operation ceases if there's massive weather en-route or over an airport, just expect epic delays.

As for ATC speaking in Mandarin, that's true, but if they are speaking in Mandarin, it's definitely not to you.

Regarding last minute RWY changes, how hard is it activating the secondary flight plan or just changing the RWY information on the MCDU?
Oddball77 is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2021, 16:51
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong, SAR.
Posts: 166
Flying into Beijing and doing a briefing...

'I will brief for 18r, have 18c in the box, but we will probably get 18l, don't ask me about the arrival, any questions?'
Oasis is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2021, 23:43
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Honkers
Posts: 3
They flew 4 times a week in to Nepal, and there were at least 4 flights in a morning to Shanghai alone. I've seen some of their rosters before, I don't think 150 sectors a year in to the PRC is off by that much, oh and don't forget the multi sector days.
skankhunt42 is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2021, 23:44
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Big Island
Posts: 64
With an average of 30+ sectors a month, majority of sectors outside the prc taken for training, so yes 150 sectors a year in the prc achieved very easy for ex KA pilots
propje is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2021, 03:33
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 141
swh - Just a quick look at my logbook shows 165 sectors in and out of the PRC in my last pre-covid normal calendar year. I completed 241 sectors for the year which was pretty normal for a line pilot on the 320 with KA. This included multiple O days in China (mostly spent looking for a half decent feed), 5 train trips from ZSQD to ZHHH and around 14 weeks leave for the year (I was owed a bunch of days from previous years). I could give you 15 -20 years of data from the 330 and 320 fleets but what would be the point, you already know all about the work we did at KA.

I'm not going to get in a pissing contest with people about our job with KA. It's gone. Those of us who did it know what was involved. We sucked it up, got it done, got paid well and went home to our families and friends. You can keep your professional respect and courtesy if your comments are the extent of it's worth. Good luck to whomever in CX picks up the KA routes and rosters once/if things get back to normal. I wouldn't do it for POS18.

To all my ex KA brothers and sisters...We had a great team and I miss working with you all. Hang in there.
Alistair is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2021, 06:37
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: HK
Posts: 13
swh

Very good management potential by twisting around numbers. Most “non China” ports are operated by wide body or taken for training flights and mostly more than 150 sectors/year.

There is no superiority in KA except “practice makes perfect”.
How many approach have you done a year pre-COVID? Any 3-2-3 pattern or 6day work without O day with single G and min. rest restless overnights?

Please put your hand up for the 321 course. You will love it!
852pilot is online now  
Old 11th Jul 2021, 06:52
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Big Island
Posts: 64

For those at cx who think that we at ka couldnít do 150 sectors in the prc, well have a look at this typical roster at ka for a 320 driver
propje is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2021, 07:19
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: All over
Posts: 186
swh

it has absolutely nothing to do with how many destinations Ka serviced, it has all to do with the frequency at which the destinations were serviced. If you don’t understand that, you have bigger problems than learning how to fly a Neo.
fly1981 is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2021, 07:30
  #76 (permalink)  
swh

Eidolon
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Some hole
Posts: 2,063
Alistair

Alistair what you are saying is totally in line with what my friends who were on the A320 were doing, 80ish PRC flights a year, an average of 8 a month/2 per week was pretty normal. What was being claimed above was 150 flights or 300 sectors a year in and out of the PRC, which I think you would agree it is an embellishment.

My KA A320 friends were home far more often than I was, flew way less hours. Swapping war stories their biggest grips were the lack of experience many FOs had, and endless delays. Never did difficulties flying the A320 or danger in flying into the PRC came up.
swh is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2021, 08:02
  #77 (permalink)  
swh

Eidolon
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Some hole
Posts: 2,063
propje

Why did you have to go back to April 2016 to find an example of a “typical” roster ?
swh is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2021, 08:27
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 1,929
I'll try and make my point again. This may differ from the views of my former colleagues.

The flying in China is the easy part. If you have high levels of experience on the Airbus the curve balls that are thrown at you are moderately challenging. I feel for the guys that may have been on the edge of their seats all day. That's a young man's game. You could see it in the ASR's.

Perhaps the now universal D Scale pilots at Cathay will get better hotels than the former KA? Better buses? Better rosters? Maybe the leisure destinations that give you a breather from the PRC won't go to HKEX, they'll be given to CX? Perhaps the issues with KA training will never rear again? The high failure rates.

The Mainland is really tough. In 2019 I was shocked at guys doing the KA gig for COS18. And when, despite some of the delusion above, the reality sets in, doing the job as a D Scaler will eventually be too much for many at CX.

Last edited by Gnadenburg; 11th Jul 2021 at 08:48.
Gnadenburg is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2021, 08:57
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 1,929
swh

Very few. All had ten thousand hours of Airbus short haul experience. Some failed ( CX training may be better or not involve the silly mercilessness of KA? )

But what's your point?

Oddball77

There's one well documented case and some anecdotes where KA crew didn't cross a runway with a mainland aircraft on the roll. I know CX guys are super knowledgable but knowing a few critical ATC phrases in Mandarin may save the day.

Last minute runway changes were no problem except for the short time we had CX SOPs. ASR's with up to five runway changes not uncommon in PEK. I think they've improved. However, I think they put their B team on ground movements.
Gnadenburg is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2021, 09:10
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 141
swh

You stated that
No KA pilot was doing 150 sectors a year into the PRC.
which is patently incorrect. I'm not sure where the 150 flights/300 sectors comes from?

The point about the PRC and KA's operation being tough is being misconstrued. It would be disingenuous not to acknowledge the draining nature of dealing with KA's PRC rosters. Any reasonable operator could meet the standard required for the flying, 200 hour MPL's could and did, with a lot of mentoring.

I see Gnadenburg has clarified his earlier comments. I agree wholeheartedly with what he is saying.

I would not have done our job for POS18. Anyone who thinks it is a piece of cake for that reward might be in for a bit of a surprise.
Alistair is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.