Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

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Old 26th Sep 2020, 10:04
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: TC
Posts: 14
LIFO

Those saying it's impossible to avoid LIFO, is a contractual bla bla bla... Litigation... You should read HK labour Law. Under special circumstances and to guarantee company survival, contracts can be overridden...
AndyBrown350 is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2020, 10:31
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Shamrock
Posts: 16
Well AndyBrown, HK labour law might say so, but no such thing exists in OZ, US, Canada or Europe.

Contracts on bases are enforceable and will be followed.
A few years ago DFO RH, GMA PH and GMA/DFO AT started messing around with contracts on bases, ask them how that went....
So yes, in HK things might go a little bit different in the coming weeks from what most are expecting, however bases won't be messed around with.
That would actually increase overal cost dramatically so there is no way to justify that by senior management.
BalloonBuster is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2020, 13:31
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 6
Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
Stick to the contract. Last in, first out.
Obviously! Love the big idea solution bin, but itís childís play. How about we live in the real world? A contract is a contract. Itís that simple.
cxorcist is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2020, 13:32
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 6
Originally Posted by Dragon Pacific View Post
Didnít those who didnít take SLS effectively volunteer to be first to go?
Did you make that rule up all by yourself or did somebody help you with that? Dumb!
cxorcist is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2020, 13:38
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 6
Originally Posted by BalloonBuster View Post
Well AndyBrown, HK labour law might say so, but no such thing exists in OZ, US, Canada or Europe.

Contracts on bases are enforceable and will be followed.
A few years ago DFO RH, GMA PH and GMA/DFO AT started messing around with contracts on bases, ask them how that went....
So yes, in HK things might go a little bit different in the coming weeks from what most are expecting, however bases won't be messed around with.
That would actually increase overal cost dramatically so there is no way to justify that by senior management.
Stop with the common sense posting, the snowflakes donít like it. They prefer word games, made up laws, and how this time it really is different. Itís like legislating from the judicial bench... donít like the result? Just throw out the law!
cxorcist is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2020, 14:42
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Fragrant Harbour
Posts: 314
Originally Posted by veritas777 View Post
Major restructuring. Company and all contracts essentially ceases to exist and assets transferred to new company who picks who to re-hire.

Didn't take SLS? Out
On the 777 with 3 months of G days continuously? Out
Everyone on COS20. Don't like it? Too bad, get out
ARAPA gone. Can't afford your mega mansion anymore? Too bad, if you don't like it, leave
Locals protected over expats

If senior crew think their experience makes them bigger than god, bye bye.

you are talking about bankruptcy not restructuring.
GTC58 is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2020, 15:01
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NSW
Posts: 63
I encourage the enthusiasm but really it is not going to make any difference.
Read the AOA forums, the company has locked the AOA out from any meetings etc. Last time they met was before the ERS. What we say or think means jack sh$&.
Jetdream is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2020, 17:35
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 735
Bla Bla Bla

Originally Posted by B7777 View Post
I have looked this up a few times and according to a number of sources, you must have the force majure clause actually written into your contract, I do not have that written in what I signed.
"Force Majure" are you kidding.. It's Hong Kong... And "contracts" these days mean jack shit..
An example in how useless the courts and government are; Mainland China and the PRC are NOT SUPPOSED to interfere in the internal workings of Hong Kong !!!

Next !!!!

#CXIT
Flex88 is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2020, 17:43
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Vermont
Posts: 47
Not worth it.

Last edited by Piet Lood; 27th Sep 2020 at 01:11.
Piet Lood is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2020, 19:23
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: World
Posts: 33
Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
Obviously! Love the big idea solution bin, but itís childís play. How about we live in the real world? A contract is a contract. Itís that simple.
Funny that, the real world suggests that people who cost too much to do too little, and those who think way too big of themselves when they are in fact replaceable by much those more talented and less entitled, are the first to go. Out.
veritas777 is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2020, 20:53
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 267
Originally Posted by BalloonBuster View Post
Well AndyBrown, HK labour law might say so, but no such thing exists in OZ, US, Canada or Europe.

Contracts on bases are enforceable and will be followed.
A few years ago DFO RH, GMA PH and GMA/DFO AT started messing around with contracts on bases, ask them how that went....
So yes, in HK things might go a little bit different in the coming weeks from what most are expecting, however bases won't be messed around with.
That would actually increase overal cost dramatically so there is no way to justify that by senior management.
This.

And the ONE thing that is clear in some of those contracts is the required layoff/recall provisions. And--for better or worse--things that happen in HKG can adversely affect those contracts even if the people are currently in another jurisdiction. So to be constructive it's best to figure something that can be worked within those constraints.

The only thing that I can think of is an attractive and voluntary scheme to avoid axing from the bottom up to the extent it can be avoided.
Slasher1 is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2020, 21:29
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: hong kong
Posts: 140
The easiest way to deal with these pesky labour laws abroad, would be to close the bases. Once all pilots are HK based, CX can do what they want; because the courts will support them in HKG.
4 driver is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2020, 21:46
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong, SAR.
Posts: 270
Originally Posted by 4 driver View Post
The easiest way to deal with these pesky labour laws abroad, would be to close the bases. Once all pilots are HK based, CX can do what they want; because the courts will support them in HKG.
That would not be smart, as the based are some of the cheapest crew on the note-sheet at the moment.
Oasis is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2020, 22:34
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: CLK
Posts: 373
Final Solution: Swire extract themselves from this structurally sick, over regulated and high cost investment.

As signalled by the forced resignation of the leadership last year, due to political misdemeanours, Swire are not welcome in the future local environment.
Instead of planning all the devious legal and legally challengable staffing solutions listed above, they have been tying up the loose ends and putting the HKGOV money to good use paying down Swire debt and planning an entire shutdown of all operations, permanently.
They are not ďlegallyĒ bound to continue their air carriage service.
Imagine the Phoenix that will arise from the ashes!

How about them apples?
Farman Biplane is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2020, 22:59
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: All over
Posts: 185
Originally Posted by B7777 View Post
I have looked this up a few times and according to a number of sources, you must have the force majure clause actually written into your contract, I do not have that written in what I signed.
there is no need for force majeure to be written into contracts in hk. The labor legislation in hk allows contracts to be varied if the company deems the change absolutely necessary. Read chapter 10 of the employment ordinance, below the second table.

ďValid Reasons for Dismissal or Variation of the Terms of the Employment Contract
The five valid reasons for dismissal or variation of the terms of the employment contract are:
 the conduct of the employee
 the capability or qualifications of the employee for performing his work
 redundancy or other genuine operational requirements of the business
 statutory requirements (i.e. it would be contrary to the law to allow an
employee to continue to work in his original position or to continue with the
original terms in his employment contract)
 other substantial reasonsĒ

if Covid 19 is not a genuine operational requirement, I donít know what is.
I am not advocating contracts be broken by any means, and I donít believe they will be, just stating the facts.


Last edited by fly1981; 26th Sep 2020 at 23:43.
fly1981 is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2020, 02:23
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 267
Originally Posted by 4 driver View Post
The easiest way to deal with these pesky labour laws abroad, would be to close the bases. Once all pilots are HK based, CX can do what they want; because the courts will support them in HKG.
Don't think that'd work at this point. You couldn't close a base to deliberately avoid the contractural provisions of layoff/recall in an existing contract (it'd have the same effect as violating them in the first place), and I'm sure there's a paper trail if that would have been the intent. So better simply to solve the problem by following an agreed contract rather than try something dodgy and underhanded.
Slasher1 is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2020, 04:29
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 140
I'm sorry to say, but the company has every right to close the bases at their discretion. They have no legal obligation to keep them open. I hope they do keep them open, but don't kid yourselves that the company is somehow obligated to keep them running as is.
mngmt mole is online now  
Old 27th Sep 2020, 06:46
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: The Twain
Posts: 246
Smartest thing would be to get pregnant.

We are going through this at present with a company in HK. Not only is it practically impossible to fire pregnant staff, we have been told that we cannot liquidate either!
anxiao is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2020, 09:13
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Cyprus
Posts: 328
Funny how Sam writes up terms & conditions for responses in his opener and, again, later appeals for "no personal attacks or insults". C'mon, Sam, this is Fragrant Harbour where many of us "lurk" about for our daily (week-end in my case) larf where bully boy tactics and deep personal insults, often through "potty mouth talk" has been the order of the day And I see Sam "lurking" about the ME forum too.Don't you CX guys have a dedicated CX forum ? Might be better for airing rather than on the public platforms. Blimey, sound like a Mod.

The Corvid hysteria and lock-down has seen a softening of articulation here though. I am saddened, actually. I am reminded, though, of all the airline disasters, bankruptcies etc that led to whole swathes of pilots meeting up & discussing solutions before the axe fell anyway. Went through two and our solutions never got to the table. Now there's a surprise. Cathartic though.

Wish you a healthy outcome but reading many of the posts has that famous Perry Como (or was Cherry Coco ?) song " Dream along with me, I'm on my way to the stars" ringing in my ears. Also, the famous list of uses of the "F" word where one has Captain of the Titanic turning to First Officer and asks ; "What F.....g Ice Berg ?"

As we say in that fabbo, well considered, deeply analysed Yamkee phrase ; "It is what it is".

Sorry Sam. Taking cover for the tirade of two-word dismissals for which the Harbour is famous.

Gordomac is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2020, 09:25
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: 852
Posts: 33
Originally Posted by Gordomac View Post
Funny how Sam writes up terms & conditions for responses in his opener and, again, later appeals for "no personal attacks or insults". C'mon, Sam, this is Fragrant Harbour where many of us "lurk" about for our daily (week-end in my case) larf where bully boy tactics and deep personal insults, often through "potty mouth talk" has been the order of the day And I see Sam "lurking" about the ME forum too.Don't you CX guys have a dedicated CX forum ? Might be better for airing rather than on the public platforms. Blimey, sound like a Mod.
228 lurkers right now in Fragrant Harbour. More than any other region on PPRuNe. Meanwhile the union forum has been dead for weeks if not months. The silence is deafening.
Shoebox is offline  

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