Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

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Old 26th Sep 2020, 08:29
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 33
Whilst I feel we should do all we can to save jobs, I am not prepared to see the contract and LIFO changed at all. If the numbers of pilot redundancies rumoured in local press are correct there is a real chance I might get the chop, I can accept it provided the terms of my recruitment, employment & contract are followed to the letter in the process. I will just be too Junior.

I guarantee not a single one of you when you signed your COS had a problem with LIFO, either because you never thought it would come to this but more likely because you all thought it was fair and more importantly knew it was the way it was done in the airline industry! For those of you advocating against LIFO are you also advocating against seniority based promotion? Because they are one and the same.

Last edited by LLLQNH; 26th Sep 2020 at 08:40.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 08:56
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 33
Anyway on the theme of the original topic

- In reverse seniority order as an alternative to permanent redundancy offer two years unpaid leave from Jan 1st 2021. Seniority and Longevity will still build (your increments will still build up and your DOJ for staff travel will remain as original DOH)

- One time payment of four months basic salary (saves the company two months they would pay out in the event of permanent redundancy)

- You remain an employee.

- Company have the option of an early return to flying duties with 3 months notice.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 10:04
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: TC
Posts: 8
LIFO

Those saying it's impossible to avoid LIFO, is a contractual bla bla bla... Litigation... You should read HK labour Law. Under special circumstances and to guarantee company survival, contracts can be overridden...
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 10:31
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Shamrock
Posts: 4
Well AndyBrown, HK labour law might say so, but no such thing exists in OZ, US, Canada or Europe.

Contracts on bases are enforceable and will be followed.
A few years ago DFO RH, GMA PH and GMA/DFO AT started messing around with contracts on bases, ask them how that went....
So yes, in HK things might go a little bit different in the coming weeks from what most are expecting, however bases won't be messed around with.
That would actually increase overal cost dramatically so there is no way to justify that by senior management.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 13:31
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
Stick to the contract. Last in, first out.
Obviously! Love the big idea solution bin, but itís childís play. How about we live in the real world? A contract is a contract. Itís that simple.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 13:32
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by Dragon Pacific View Post
Didnít those who didnít take SLS effectively volunteer to be first to go?
Did you make that rule up all by yourself or did somebody help you with that? Dumb!
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 13:38
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by BalloonBuster View Post
Well AndyBrown, HK labour law might say so, but no such thing exists in OZ, US, Canada or Europe.

Contracts on bases are enforceable and will be followed.
A few years ago DFO RH, GMA PH and GMA/DFO AT started messing around with contracts on bases, ask them how that went....
So yes, in HK things might go a little bit different in the coming weeks from what most are expecting, however bases won't be messed around with.
That would actually increase overal cost dramatically so there is no way to justify that by senior management.
Stop with the common sense posting, the snowflakes donít like it. They prefer word games, made up laws, and how this time it really is different. Itís like legislating from the judicial bench... donít like the result? Just throw out the law!
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 14:42
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Fragrant Harbour
Posts: 309
Originally Posted by veritas777 View Post
Major restructuring. Company and all contracts essentially ceases to exist and assets transferred to new company who picks who to re-hire.

Didn't take SLS? Out
On the 777 with 3 months of G days continuously? Out
Everyone on COS20. Don't like it? Too bad, get out
ARAPA gone. Can't afford your mega mansion anymore? Too bad, if you don't like it, leave
Locals protected over expats

If senior crew think their experience makes them bigger than god, bye bye.

you are talking about bankruptcy not restructuring.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 15:01
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NSW
Posts: 41
I encourage the enthusiasm but really it is not going to make any difference.
Read the AOA forums, the company has locked the AOA out from any meetings etc. Last time they met was before the ERS. What we say or think means jack sh$&.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 17:35
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 621
Bla Bla Bla

Originally Posted by B7777 View Post
I have looked this up a few times and according to a number of sources, you must have the force majure clause actually written into your contract, I do not have that written in what I signed.
"Force Majure" are you kidding.. It's Hong Kong... And "contracts" these days mean jack shit..
An example in how useless the courts and government are; Mainland China and the PRC are NOT SUPPOSED to interfere in the internal workings of Hong Kong !!!

Next !!!!

#CXIT
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 17:43
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Vermont
Posts: 61
Not worth it.

Last edited by Piet Lood; 27th Sep 2020 at 01:11.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 19:23
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: COS18
Posts: 9
Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
Obviously! Love the big idea solution bin, but itís childís play. How about we live in the real world? A contract is a contract. Itís that simple.
Funny that, the real world suggests that people who cost too much to do too little, and those who think way too big of themselves when they are in fact replaceable by much those more talented and less entitled, are the first to go. Out.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 20:53
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 252
Originally Posted by BalloonBuster View Post
Well AndyBrown, HK labour law might say so, but no such thing exists in OZ, US, Canada or Europe.

Contracts on bases are enforceable and will be followed.
A few years ago DFO RH, GMA PH and GMA/DFO AT started messing around with contracts on bases, ask them how that went....
So yes, in HK things might go a little bit different in the coming weeks from what most are expecting, however bases won't be messed around with.
That would actually increase overal cost dramatically so there is no way to justify that by senior management.
This.

And the ONE thing that is clear in some of those contracts is the required layoff/recall provisions. And--for better or worse--things that happen in HKG can adversely affect those contracts even if the people are currently in another jurisdiction. So to be constructive it's best to figure something that can be worked within those constraints.

The only thing that I can think of is an attractive and voluntary scheme to avoid axing from the bottom up to the extent it can be avoided.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 21:29
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: hong kong
Posts: 139
The easiest way to deal with these pesky labour laws abroad, would be to close the bases. Once all pilots are HK based, CX can do what they want; because the courts will support them in HKG.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 21:46
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong, SAR.
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by 4 driver View Post
The easiest way to deal with these pesky labour laws abroad, would be to close the bases. Once all pilots are HK based, CX can do what they want; because the courts will support them in HKG.
That would not be smart, as the based are some of the cheapest crew on the note-sheet at the moment.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 22:34
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: CLK
Posts: 332
Final Solution: Swire extract themselves from this structurally sick, over regulated and high cost investment.

As signalled by the forced resignation of the leadership last year, due to political misdemeanours, Swire are not welcome in the future local environment.
Instead of planning all the devious legal and legally challengable staffing solutions listed above, they have been tying up the loose ends and putting the HKGOV money to good use paying down Swire debt and planning an entire shutdown of all operations, permanently.
They are not ďlegallyĒ bound to continue their air carriage service.
Imagine the Phoenix that will arise from the ashes!

How about them apples?
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 22:37
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: COS18
Posts: 9
Originally Posted by Oasis View Post
That would not be smart, as the based are some of the cheapest crew on the note-sheet at the moment.
Not as cheap as a COS20 DEFO for how much work they're doing.

Or, they can close all the bases, then reopen them again to (current) HKG based crew at even lower rates. No doubt we'll still get Brits and Aussies chomping at the bit to take a basing even with the paycut.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 22:59
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: All over
Posts: 159
Originally Posted by B7777 View Post
I have looked this up a few times and according to a number of sources, you must have the force majure clause actually written into your contract, I do not have that written in what I signed.
there is no need for force majeure to be written into contracts in hk. The labor legislation in hk allows contracts to be varied if the company deems the change absolutely necessary. Read chapter 10 of the employment ordinance, below the second table.

ďValid Reasons for Dismissal or Variation of the Terms of the Employment Contract
The five valid reasons for dismissal or variation of the terms of the employment contract are:
 the conduct of the employee
 the capability or qualifications of the employee for performing his work
 redundancy or other genuine operational requirements of the business
 statutory requirements (i.e. it would be contrary to the law to allow an
employee to continue to work in his original position or to continue with the
original terms in his employment contract)
 other substantial reasonsĒ

if Covid 19 is not a genuine operational requirement, I donít know what is.
I am not advocating contracts be broken by any means, and I donít believe they will be, just stating the facts.


Last edited by fly1981; 26th Sep 2020 at 23:43.
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Old 27th Sep 2020, 02:23
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 252
Originally Posted by 4 driver View Post
The easiest way to deal with these pesky labour laws abroad, would be to close the bases. Once all pilots are HK based, CX can do what they want; because the courts will support them in HKG.
Don't think that'd work at this point. You couldn't close a base to deliberately avoid the contractural provisions of layoff/recall in an existing contract (it'd have the same effect as violating them in the first place), and I'm sure there's a paper trail if that would have been the intent. So better simply to solve the problem by following an agreed contract rather than try something dodgy and underhanded.
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Old 27th Sep 2020, 04:29
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 15
I'm sorry to say, but the company has every right to close the bases at their discretion. They have no legal obligation to keep them open. I hope they do keep them open, but don't kid yourselves that the company is somehow obligated to keep them running as is.
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