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Suggestion Box

Old 26th Sep 2020, 00:59
  #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: one country, one system
Age: 52
Posts: 65
Suggestion Box

- solutions only
- should define benefit to the company
- feasible and legal (best of knowlege)
- no personal attacks or insults


CX only, can't comment on KA

All S/O's, JFO's offer of 12 months voluntary leave with monthly allowance of 10k. If bound to a rental contract, company will pay the full rent. Officers with children can decline and will not be counted in terms of the min acceptance rate. FOC tickets plus headland available for voluntary simulator checks. Earlier recall on voluntary base possible.

All based non-747 crew offer of 12 months voluntary leave on 25% of salary.


Voluntary temporary cut of 10 % basic for 12 months for all crew.

Min required acceptance rate above 90% or further actions by the company.


Benefit: immediate recall available in case of recovery, future prospect of employment for S/O's, survival of basings


Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 26th Sep 2020 at 01:53.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 02:14
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
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Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong View Post
- solutions only
- should define benefit to the company
- feasible and legal (best of knowlege)
- no personal attacks or insults


CX only, can't comment on KA

All S/O's, JFO's offer of 12 months voluntary leave with monthly allowance of 10k. If bound to a rental contract, company will pay the full rent. Officers with children can decline and will not be counted in terms of the min acceptance rate. FOC tickets plus headland available for voluntary simulator checks. Earlier recall on voluntary base possible.

All based non-747 crew offer of 12 months voluntary leave on 25% of salary.


Voluntary temporary cut of 10 % basic for 12 months for all crew.

Min required acceptance rate above 90% or further actions by the company.


Benefit: immediate recall available in case of recovery, future prospect of employment for S/O's, survival of basings

Stick to the contract. Last in, first out.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 02:22
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Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Rabbit Hutch
Posts: 99
Didnít those who didnít take SLS effectively volunteer to be first to go?
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 02:32
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: HKSAR
Posts: 5
SLS3. 6 months unpaid leave for ALL to be spread over 18 months (1/3 of salary cut for 18 months). ARAPA and HKPA remains to be paid throughout. SLS3 to be taken in 2 months or more instalments.

And STW I agree it would be a good idea to set an attribution rate, some people need some pressure to chip in.

Save all jobs if we can.

Last edited by Whiteteanosugar; 26th Sep 2020 at 05:06.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 02:48
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 33
I am sorry to inform everyone, but it is a bit late to be providing comprehensive "solutions" to the companys problem. Needless to say, they have already baked their cake and the result is about to be presented to the membership. You are providing sensible suggestions, but it is too little too late. The result is already decided.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 03:16
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Vermont
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Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong View Post
- solutions only
-LIFO
- should define benefit to the company
-no legal action required
- feasible and legal (best of knowlege)
-see above
- no personal attacks or insults
-😘
I have to add 10 characters to reply.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 03:35
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: usa
Posts: 40
Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong View Post
- solutions only
- should define benefit to the company
- feasible and legal (best of knowlege)
- no personal attacks or insults


CX only, can't comment on KA

All S/O's, JFO's offer of 12 months voluntary leave with monthly allowance of 10k. If bound to a rental contract, company will pay the full rent. Officers with children can decline and will not be counted in terms of the min acceptance rate. FOC tickets plus headland available for voluntary simulator checks. Earlier recall on voluntary base possible.

All based non-747 crew offer of 12 months voluntary leave on 25% of salary.


Voluntary temporary cut of 10 % basic for 12 months for all crew.

Min required acceptance rate above 90% or further actions by the company.


Benefit: immediate recall available in case of recovery, future prospect of employment for S/O's, survival of basings
So the people that are actually saving the company money by not having kids must take the knock? I feel sorry for all single people, LGBT community and couples that are struggling to have kids - lets signal them out...how about LIFO!

Or lets all band together and take a 35% pay cut for there next 12 months (but this won't happen as a few on the website have already said they won't "help" out) - LIFO then.

As for SLS not being taken, once again the CAPT's, FO's or SO's that could not afford it due to the fact they has 3 kids or the fact they are supporting family members in HKG. I know let's just kick them out! - LIFO!

Sorry for having a go at some of these suggestions, but when stupid suggestions have been put forward they need to be shut down.
Seems like everyone wants CX and KA to break the binding contact you've signed. Don't be silly! If they break your contract you will have terrible terrible working conditions for the rest of your career.

I say all the above and I am in the firing line when they let pilots go - LIFO!
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 03:41
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Posts: 65
Please keep it coming, without personal attacks or insults. Please.

Downsides of LIFO:

costs of severance, recruitment, re-training 747 crew plus the newjoiner later, possible shortcomings in case of rapid developments, downgrading of CN's necessary ( something not discussed yet I noticed) , human cost of hardship

Note that all affected by LIFO would still be the ones with the biggest burden, down to just 10k a month. But it would not be as brutal and terminal.

Not saying LIFO it is not a valid suggestion, just wondering if it is really the best. I was hoping for a creative and maybe innovative alternative. I do not suggest to break any contract, voluntary agreements only.



Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 26th Sep 2020 at 04:01.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 03:48
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 33
So Sam, conversely you are suggesting that they should ignore LIFO? It's ok to retain someone junior to someone senior? Is that what you are saying. Just asking. Without a contractual right to retain your job respective to someone junior to you, there is then categorically no value in your career. If you don't agree, then please explain.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 04:02
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Join Date: Feb 2013
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Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong View Post
Please keep it coming, without personal attacks or insults. Please.

Downsides of LIFO:

costs of severance, recruitment, re-training 747 crew plus the newjoiner later, possible shortcomings in case of rapid developments, downgrading of CN's necessary ( something not discussed yet I noticed) , human cost of hardship

Note that all affected by LIFO would still be the ones with the biggest burden, down to just 10k a month. But it would not be as brutal and terminal.

Not saying LIFO it is not a valid suggestion, just wondering if it is really the best. I was hoping for a creative and maybe innovative alternative. I do not suggest to break any contract, only voluntary agreements
LIFO isn't a suggestion. It's contractual.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 04:11
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Rabbit Hutch
Posts: 99
LIFO has some immigration/legal ramifications as Iíd imagine that you canít keep someone who needs a visa and lay off someone who is PR. Some of the most junior are Locals/PR.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 04:59
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 257
It's impossible to circumvent LIFO on the master seniority list without significant litigation and a huge quagmire (and the litigation costs--in which you'll ultimately lose the case--will be extensive for the company while in some jurisdictions 'free' towards the plaintiffs). While the enforceability in HKG might be dubious elsewhere it would not be and you can't use 'tricks' to try to get around that in that all that information would be discoverable. Nor could you partially circumvent this by applying LIFO in one area and not in another because that would affect everyone (i.e. a partial LIFO only on the base but not in HKG would still affect those on a base so it'd still wind up in arbitration/court). There's simply no way around the provision.

SO

You're gonna need a voluntary scheme to comply with the contracts and one that attracts enough people to take it. That's really the only legal avenue before the reverse-seniority axe.

The break point (i.e. the point it'd be financially beneficial for retirement and permanent separation vs. simple layoff provisions) for most contracts is two years for a clean break (given the pay protection, AL, sick days, etc.). Medical in countries for a year or so might need to be added. This is similar to many (developed nations) scheme; I'd probably look towards Southwest for a model.

You might add a one year voluntary leave scheme (with recall) at 60-70%-ish pay (no housing or ancillary allowances, etc.; preserving medical and peripheral benefits in countries which need it) there as well. That'd get you recoverable assets when things pick back up a bit.

A straight layoff is 6 months' pay (with in-seniority recall rights) in most contracts so it has to be something better than this (i.e. it'd have to be better than a simple one year at half pay in that 6 months is half a year so a person would be better off to force layoffs).

Give this a try and then bring down the axe.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 05:07
  #13 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: one country, one system
Age: 52
Posts: 65
Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
So Sam, conversely you are suggesting that they should ignore LIFO? It's ok to retain someone junior to someone senior? Is that what you are saying. Just asking. Without a contractual right to retain your job respective to someone junior to you, there is then categorically no value in your career. If you don't agree, then please explain.
No, I don't suggest to ignore LIFO. If redundancies will be decided they must be done by LIFO in my opinion. ( no idea about the legal implications of PR vs Non-PR).

What I suggest is not to make anyone redundant in the first place, basically buying time by asking those potentially affected by LIFO to voluntarily accept 10k for a year etc (see first post).

Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 26th Sep 2020 at 05:51.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 05:12
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 17
If CX need to axe 1000 pilots or thereabouts, then just take the average total package of a Capt, SO, FO etc and multiply it by 1000. If you just took a FO average pay per month x 1000 you're looking at $85m that CX will want to save per month. So if they want to keep everyone then everyone needs around a $25,000 per month pay reduction. I don't see that happening.. A company will not keep an employee around who does not work!

CX bean-counters have a monthly / yearly figure in mind that they need to reduce.

1) 1000 pilot retrenchments... sorry my opinion (that's around 8-9 years of service in the company, local cadets / pilots do not count as they are exempt, we are foreigners)
2) The survivors take a 30% total package pay cut
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 06:16
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Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: COS18
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Major restructuring. Company and all contracts essentially ceases to exist and assets transferred to new company who picks who to re-hire.

Didn't take SLS? Out
On the 777 with 3 months of G days continuously? Out
Everyone on COS20. Don't like it? Too bad, get out
ARAPA gone. Can't afford your mega mansion anymore? Too bad, if you don't like it, leave
Locals protected over expats

If senior crew think their experience makes them bigger than god, bye bye.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 06:29
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Egoli
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Originally Posted by veritas777 View Post
Major restructuring. Company and all contracts essentially ceases to exist and assets transferred to new company who picks who to re-hire.

Didn't take SLS? Out
On the 777 with 3 months of G days continuously? Out
Everyone on COS20. Don't like it? Too bad, get out
ARAPA gone. Can't afford your mega mansion anymore? Too bad, if you don't like it, leave
Locals protected over expats

If senior crew think their experience makes them bigger than god, bye bye.

Although I would prefer LIFO as it would protect me more, but if I would be running a business I would do exactly what you suggest !!!!
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 06:51
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: The Forbidden City
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Originally Posted by Slasher1 View Post
It's impossible to circumvent LIFO on the master seniority list without significant litigation and a huge quagmire (and the litigation costs--in which you'll ultimately lose the case--will be extensive for the company while in some jurisdictions 'free' towards the plaintiffs)
.
No itís not impossible, thereís this thing called OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENT (aka major restructuring) which is exactly what the CX group will be going through, starting Q4.

This is exactly what they will use as a grounds for a fair dismissal (hereís your new contract, take it or leave it), and they have the full backing of any judge and court. The AOA knows this, the DPA knows this, all of them powerless, nothing to ďnegotiateĒ.
For them to even suggest 50% pay for a year is laughable.

In a previous post on another forum I mentioned how this is going to play out, the 49er fiasco can be used as a prelude:

Under probation - ciao
High sickness record - ciao
Poor performance - ciao
Failed upgrades - ciao
Outspoken on Social Media - ciao
Extra fuel/no RETI (no good reason) - ciao

then only do we get to LIFO (per fleet, per rank)

In a nutshell, anytime you cost them money, youíre a target - open season on 1 October.

Hold onto your underpants - itís going to be a rough ride.

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Old 26th Sep 2020, 07:04
  #18 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: one country, one system
Age: 52
Posts: 65
This thread was actually meant for constructive suggestions, not when to expect annihilation.

Think of it as trouble shooting in a catastrophic inflight situation.

Are you going to give up?

Creative solutions, please let us see them.

Thank you

Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 26th Sep 2020 at 07:30.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 07:06
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Rabbit Hutch
Posts: 99
I agree with Curry; and look up Force Majeure, our contracts are unenforceable in current circumstances.
STW, our suggestions or solutions are irrelevant.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 07:23
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Hong kong
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Originally Posted by Dragon Pacific View Post
I agree with Curry; and look up Force Majeure, our contracts are unenforceable in current circumstances.
STW, our suggestions or solutions are irrelevant.
I have looked this up a few times and according to a number of sources, you must have the force majure clause actually written into your contract, I do not have that written in what I signed.
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