The end of arapa
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 36
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From: Hong Kong
The end of arapa
Todays Q3 email doesn’t have the best outlook for the next 3 years. Cutbacks will happen, and pilots aren’t immune.
Every pilot I’ve flown with since the beginning of this crisis, who is on arapa, thinks that they will come out of this on the same contract and terms that they’re on today. They are in complete denial that this will be one of the first items the company will cut come Q4. They believe that they, and only they, can captain these 747s, 777s, and Airbuses safely. Cadet pilots aren’t qualified to be captains. Only arapa pilots are good and experienced enough to do the job and that’s why they won’t be losing their housing.
So the question I ask is; when will you arapa pilots join the rest of the world. We’re all going to come out of this with some loss. Why do you feel invincible? How fast will you sign over to a new contract once it’s the only one being offered by the company?
I respect you all, but it’s time to stop living in dreamland.
Every pilot I’ve flown with since the beginning of this crisis, who is on arapa, thinks that they will come out of this on the same contract and terms that they’re on today. They are in complete denial that this will be one of the first items the company will cut come Q4. They believe that they, and only they, can captain these 747s, 777s, and Airbuses safely. Cadet pilots aren’t qualified to be captains. Only arapa pilots are good and experienced enough to do the job and that’s why they won’t be losing their housing.
So the question I ask is; when will you arapa pilots join the rest of the world. We’re all going to come out of this with some loss. Why do you feel invincible? How fast will you sign over to a new contract once it’s the only one being offered by the company?
I respect you all, but it’s time to stop living in dreamland.
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 674
Likes: 10
From: Krug departure, Merlot transition
I’m probably taking a troll’s bait, but I love the way some relative newcomers (on HKPA?) are continuously putting ARAP up in the line of fire (hey, shoot here first!)
Of course, the same will happen to them later on in their careers, when all the ARAP recipients are gone and they now have the best package compared to the COS18s that joined after them. And so on and so forth, in this profession‘s implacable race to the bottom, where the most disheartening aspect of all is watching your own colleagues cheer management on.
Of course, the same will happen to them later on in their careers, when all the ARAP recipients are gone and they now have the best package compared to the COS18s that joined after them. And so on and so forth, in this profession‘s implacable race to the bottom, where the most disheartening aspect of all is watching your own colleagues cheer management on.
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 223
Likes: 66
I was hoping that one, just a single one of the above posts would demonstrate a single quality; that of grammar. Sadly, not only are they all lacking in that basic quality, they also demonstrate why this profession is probably doomed. Foolish, envious and short sighted people now inhabit too many seats at this airline. I am in the Four Seasons/mid levels/DB townhouse (pick one) because I am availing myself of the contractual terms that I signed up for. Something about "a standard of living commensurate with that which I would enjoy in my home country". A big reason I agreed to the CX contract that I signed. That being said, do you feel that CX is obligated to honour my contract? And if not, then why should they honour yours (as meager as it may be). The remaining ARAPA pilots are not the problem in this company. The problem is a provably incompetent management. The loss on fuel hedging the past several years would have alone provided funds to put every single pilot onto ARAPA. So no, I don't accept the premise you raise. I, and my other ARAPA colleagues are guilty of nothing more than working within the contract that we were offered by CX when we considered joining. Like all else in that contract, I expect it to be honoured if I fulfill my duties faithfully towards the company. So far, I have done so to the letter. For that reason I expect management to do the same towards me. That's how contracts work.
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
From: HK
I was hoping that one, just a single one of the above posts would demonstrate a single quality; that of grammar. Sadly, not only are they all lacking in that basic quality, they also demonstrate why this profession is probably doomed. Foolish, envious and short sighted people now inhabit too many seats at this airline. I am in the Four Seasons/mid levels/DB townhouse (pick one) because I am availing myself of the contractual terms that I signed up for. Something about "a standard of living commensurate with that which I would enjoy in my home country". A big reason I agreed to the CX contract that I signed. That being said, do you feel that CX is obligated to honour my contract? And if not, then why should they honour yours (as meager as it may be). The remaining ARAPA pilots are not the problem in this company. The problem is a provably incompetent management. The loss on fuel hedging the past several years would have alone provided funds to put every single pilot onto ARAPA. So no, I don't accept the premise you raise. I, and my other ARAPA colleagues are guilty of nothing more than working within the contract that we were offered by CX when we considered joining. Like all else in that contract, I expect it to be honoured if I fulfill my duties faithfully towards the company. So far, I have done so to the letter. For that reason I expect management to do the same towards me. That's how contracts work.
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 223
Likes: 66
The senior pilots have made sacrifices as well. Already into the second SLS, No 13th month for two of the past three years (and about to be three of the past four). Profit sharing nothing more than a formula that will never again pay out a penny to the staff. So yes, I feel that major sacrifices have already been made, by me and everyone else. Fear is the company's best friend at the moment, and it is ably demonstrated by the posts on this thread. I have no objection to agreeing temporary changes to our pay and benefits providing they are negotiated and agreed. They must include a snap back provision once the company is again profitable. Otherwise, it is yet another case of the "company never letting a good crisis go to waste". There is no career to be had under those terms.
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 674
Likes: 10
From: Krug departure, Merlot transition
Exactly. Temporary pay sacrifices (even significant ones) are fine and I think most have been more than happy to accept them, and will accept more, lasting as long as the crisis lasts. This is an unprecedented situation and we all know that.
Permanent cuts to terms and conditions are a different story and would simply be opportunistic cost-cutting. When things pick up again (and they will) you won’t ever be getting those back.
If they need more cost cutting than that, then they have to start getting rid of people (which I suspect they need to do, regardless). How they do that is up to them.
Until then, stop offering up your colleagues’ terms and conditions on the sacrificial altar.
Permanent cuts to terms and conditions are a different story and would simply be opportunistic cost-cutting. When things pick up again (and they will) you won’t ever be getting those back.
If they need more cost cutting than that, then they have to start getting rid of people (which I suspect they need to do, regardless). How they do that is up to them.
Until then, stop offering up your colleagues’ terms and conditions on the sacrificial altar.
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
From: Asia
Todays Q3 email doesn’t have the best outlook for the next 3 years. Cutbacks will happen, and pilots aren’t immune.
Every pilot I’ve flown with since the beginning of this crisis, who is on arapa, thinks that they will come out of this on the same contract and terms that they’re on today. They are in complete denial that this will be one of the first items the company will cut come Q4. They believe that they, and only they, can captain these 747s, 777s, and Airbuses safely. Cadet pilots aren’t qualified to be captains. Only arapa pilots are good and experienced enough to do the job and that’s why they won’t be losing their housing.
So the question I ask is; when will you arapa pilots join the rest of the world. We’re all going to come out of this with some loss. Why do you feel invincible? How fast will you sign over to a new contract once it’s the only one being offered by the company?
I respect you all, but it’s time to stop living in dreamland.
Every pilot I’ve flown with since the beginning of this crisis, who is on arapa, thinks that they will come out of this on the same contract and terms that they’re on today. They are in complete denial that this will be one of the first items the company will cut come Q4. They believe that they, and only they, can captain these 747s, 777s, and Airbuses safely. Cadet pilots aren’t qualified to be captains. Only arapa pilots are good and experienced enough to do the job and that’s why they won’t be losing their housing.
So the question I ask is; when will you arapa pilots join the rest of the world. We’re all going to come out of this with some loss. Why do you feel invincible? How fast will you sign over to a new contract once it’s the only one being offered by the company?
I respect you all, but it’s time to stop living in dreamland.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 175
Likes: 5
From: UK
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
From: HK
For God’s sake, why can’t people like you learn to include closing quotation marks?
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 79
Likes: 10
From: planet earth
And once arapa is gone, what do you think will be next their next target? That's right, your beloved HKPA.
It amazes me the glee that some have over the demise of arapa without realizing the detrimental impact it will have on their own contracts in the future.
It amazes me the glee that some have over the demise of arapa without realizing the detrimental impact it will have on their own contracts in the future.
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 0
Likes: 1
From: Polar Route
Indeed, but that’s the benefit of a dumbed down workforce. They aren’t even thinking beyond their next meal. Forget about chess, checkers is a challenge.
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
From: Canada
I was going to start as an SO earlier this year, but thanks to Covid, that was cancelled and I am now unemployed and looking to start from the bottom once again (likely chucking bags into aircraft in the bush). Despite this, I truly hope CX sticks to LIFO even if it means I won't be flying.. erm babysitting... a CX aircraft for a handful of years or more, for the exact reason you stated. The last thing I want is for all of the experience to leave the flightdeck and then to have my contract slashed during the next crisis. Although, COS18 means nothing anyways with all of the "at company's discretion," so maybe it would happen anyways. Anyhow, once you accept anything other than what the contract states, you've set the precedence for the company to do whatever they want as they please. Take short term concessions, but please don't take any permanent concessions.
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
From: Canada
What do you think that does to upgrade times in a shrinking airline?
We should all be hoping people get to stay on COS 99 and leave at 55.
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 651
Likes: 0
From: Hong Kong
coronavirus - clearly we didn't fly together ;-)
Thanks to the failure of TA16 and TA18 we don't have any pesky legal restrictions on changes to ARAP or HKPA. Minor changes can be done with impunity, wholesale changes are 'challengeable' in court. But given the economic environment we find ourselves in, what would be considered 'wholesale' with an airline making a profit vs 'wholesale' with an airline losing $1.5Billion a month is debatable.
There has been a long term degradation in our terms. It is not the newcomer's fault - I remember some on A scale complaining about B scalers arriving. Then ASL - then COS08, then HKPA, then COS18. If the deal was so bad, people wouldn't come. Market forces!
A year from now I will be grateful to have/keep my job - I will be even more grateful if my employment terms(I mean $$$) are close to what I got prior to SLS. I will be gob smacked if they are the same. As the saying goes, never waste a crisis. All airlines will try to make themselves leaner out of all this. And that means- us - where else can they trim?
PS to spelling and grammar nazis - I do numbers not English - fire away at errors but I don't care ;-)
Thanks to the failure of TA16 and TA18 we don't have any pesky legal restrictions on changes to ARAP or HKPA. Minor changes can be done with impunity, wholesale changes are 'challengeable' in court. But given the economic environment we find ourselves in, what would be considered 'wholesale' with an airline making a profit vs 'wholesale' with an airline losing $1.5Billion a month is debatable.
There has been a long term degradation in our terms. It is not the newcomer's fault - I remember some on A scale complaining about B scalers arriving. Then ASL - then COS08, then HKPA, then COS18. If the deal was so bad, people wouldn't come. Market forces!
A year from now I will be grateful to have/keep my job - I will be even more grateful if my employment terms(I mean $$$) are close to what I got prior to SLS. I will be gob smacked if they are the same. As the saying goes, never waste a crisis. All airlines will try to make themselves leaner out of all this. And that means- us - where else can they trim?
PS to spelling and grammar nazis - I do numbers not English - fire away at errors but I don't care ;-)
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
From: B050 No SAR No Details
ARAP is certainly one of the "low-hanging fruit" that I fully expect the company to take an axe to. What seems to contradict this though, is the offer to continue to pay this allowance while people are on the latest Unpaid Leave offer going through to March next year.
The out-going GMA gave us a 10-year deal on ARAP so we could plan with some degree of certainty. Maybe they're going to honour this? Large changes could potentially bankrupt some people (though no-one saw Covid coming and planned accordingly). Maybe they're going to slowly turn the tap off as leases come up for renewal. It's anyone's guess.
The out-going GMA gave us a 10-year deal on ARAP so we could plan with some degree of certainty. Maybe they're going to honour this? Large changes could potentially bankrupt some people (though no-one saw Covid coming and planned accordingly). Maybe they're going to slowly turn the tap off as leases come up for renewal. It's anyone's guess.
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
From: Asia
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: Hong Kong
I hope I am wrong and we will all be happily flying soon, but we all know that won't happen.[/QUOTE]
I’m sure you are right with parking a chunk of the fleet and the following quote:
On possible job cuts in 2020, CEO Augustus Tang said: “It is inevitable we will need to make difficult decisions”
I’d also wager that before long they’ll start the process of new contracts sign here or else.
On that gloomy note I’ll sign off 😂.
Good luck everybody.
I’m sure you are right with parking a chunk of the fleet and the following quote:
On possible job cuts in 2020, CEO Augustus Tang said: “It is inevitable we will need to make difficult decisions”
I’d also wager that before long they’ll start the process of new contracts sign here or else.
On that gloomy note I’ll sign off 😂.
Good luck everybody.