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The end of arapa

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The end of arapa

Old 12th Aug 2020, 07:48
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 9
The end of arapa

Todays Q3 email doesnít have the best outlook for the next 3 years. Cutbacks will happen, and pilots arenít immune.

Every pilot Iíve flown with since the beginning of this crisis, who is on arapa, thinks that they will come out of this on the same contract and terms that theyíre on today. They are in complete denial that this will be one of the first items the company will cut come Q4. They believe that they, and only they, can captain these 747s, 777s, and Airbuses safely. Cadet pilots arenít qualified to be captains. Only arapa pilots are good and experienced enough to do the job and thatís why they wonít be losing their housing.

So the question I ask is; when will you arapa pilots join the rest of the world. Weíre all going to come out of this with some loss. Why do you feel invincible? How fast will you sign over to a new contract once itís the only one being offered by the company?

I respect you all, but itís time to stop living in dreamland.
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Old 12th Aug 2020, 10:53
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: CLK
Posts: 326
Great idea from the newbie!
Letís roll over and just accept whatever happens.
I suppose COS20 for ex-ARAP and all the rest of the pilots laid off, how does that sound? Enjoy your time off.
Farman Biplane is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2020, 12:22
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: HK
Posts: 56
Just waiting for Cxorcist to comment, but all seriousness every pilot will be affect with the upcoming changes in the next 6 months. Anybody that doesn't think it will affect them lives in a fantasy.
Firefly47 is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2020, 12:42
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Krug departure, Merlot transition
Posts: 558
Iím probably taking a trollís bait, but I love the way some relative newcomers (on HKPA?) are continuously putting ARAP up in the line of fire (hey, shoot here first!)

Of course, the same will happen to them later on in their careers, when all the ARAP recipients are gone and they now have the best package compared to the COS18s that joined after them. And so on and so forth, in this professionĎs implacable race to the bottom, where the most disheartening aspect of all is watching your own colleagues cheer management on.
main_dog is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2020, 13:07
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: usa
Posts: 35
I really don't think that COS08 or COS18 pilots are taking aim at your ARAPA.
If you think about it, people are living the life in the 4 seasons are spending a butt ton of money! Its not fair if you loose it, but its the price of 2 SO's basic salary on COS18. The company will try its best not to cut jobs, that means putting us all on COS18 and yes that sucks as I will get affected ( a western COS08 pilot with 2 kids ), but what can we do?
We cannot fight or ask our AOA for help. They are useless and it's just a shit hand we are dealt.

This is the worst downturn in history. SARS is insignificant compared to this. So I guess when that contract comes out you have to ask yourself...what is good for me? Live with your choice and the consequence.
Its like the ERS that being offered - if you opt not to take it and you could and you find yourself on COS18, you made the choice and accept the consequence.

None of us want to see any pilots loose their jobs, or their income/families etc. If you going to @#$% over the company because you are sour then rather leave. We need support, jobs, income and a salary ( even if its 50% for the next 6 month ). I will take another round of SLS, unpaid leave, 50% salary cut ( for a period ) to save my job BUT also the jobs of my fellow pilots.

Downscale for a year or 2. It's not the end of the world!!!!

Im sure I will be abused with things like you are young, you have no experience, you are selling out bla bla bla - sticks and stones. All I can say that I will be considering my situation and do what is good for me and my family!
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Old 12th Aug 2020, 13:27
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 1
I was hoping that one, just a single one of the above posts would demonstrate a single quality; that of grammar. Sadly, not only are they all lacking in that basic quality, they also demonstrate why this profession is probably doomed. Foolish, envious and short sighted people now inhabit too many seats at this airline. I am in the Four Seasons/mid levels/DB townhouse (pick one) because I am availing myself of the contractual terms that I signed up for. Something about "a standard of living commensurate with that which I would enjoy in my home country". A big reason I agreed to the CX contract that I signed. That being said, do you feel that CX is obligated to honour my contract? And if not, then why should they honour yours (as meager as it may be). The remaining ARAPA pilots are not the problem in this company. The problem is a provably incompetent management. The loss on fuel hedging the past several years would have alone provided funds to put every single pilot onto ARAPA. So no, I don't accept the premise you raise. I, and my other ARAPA colleagues are guilty of nothing more than working within the contract that we were offered by CX when we considered joining. Like all else in that contract, I expect it to be honoured if I fulfill my duties faithfully towards the company. So far, I have done so to the letter. For that reason I expect management to do the same towards me. That's how contracts work.
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Old 12th Aug 2020, 13:37
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: HK
Posts: 36
Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
I was hoping that one, just a single one of the above posts would demonstrate a single quality; that of grammar. Sadly, not only are they all lacking in that basic quality, they also demonstrate why this profession is probably doomed. Foolish, envious and short sighted people now inhabit too many seats at this airline. I am in the Four Seasons/mid levels/DB townhouse (pick one) because I am availing myself of the contractual terms that I signed up for. Something about "a standard of living commensurate with that which I would enjoy in my home country". A big reason I agreed to the CX contract that I signed. That being said, do you feel that CX is obligated to honour my contract? And if not, then why should they honour yours (as meager as it may be). The remaining ARAPA pilots are not the problem in this company. The problem is a provably incompetent management. The loss on fuel hedging the past several years would have alone provided funds to put every single pilot onto ARAPA. So no, I don't accept the premise you raise. I, and my other ARAPA colleagues are guilty of nothing more than working within the contract that we were offered by CX when we considered joining. Like all else in that contract, I expect it to be honoured if I fulfill my duties faithfully towards the company. So far, I have done so to the letter. For that reason I expect management to do the same towards me. That's how contracts work.
Ever hear of paragraphs, grammar Nazi?
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Old 12th Aug 2020, 13:41
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Earth
Posts: 65
Hold on... while I am no expert, nor do I work for CX (although I did interview for an SO position), from what I am reading, and understanding; are all you ARAPA guys expecting to be paid the same, and have your contracts honored to a tee during these times? Because if that's what I understood from the above posts, without knowing any of the backstory since I don't work for CX, you senior pilots must really be living in lala land

Every single major airline in the world has made significant cutbacks, with the most senior captains taking significant paycuts at all the legacy carriers...
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Old 12th Aug 2020, 13:49
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Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 1
The senior pilots have made sacrifices as well. Already into the second SLS, No 13th month for two of the past three years (and about to be three of the past four). Profit sharing nothing more than a formula that will never again pay out a penny to the staff. So yes, I feel that major sacrifices have already been made, by me and everyone else. Fear is the company's best friend at the moment, and it is ably demonstrated by the posts on this thread. I have no objection to agreeing temporary changes to our pay and benefits providing they are negotiated and agreed. They must include a snap back provision once the company is again profitable. Otherwise, it is yet another case of the "company never letting a good crisis go to waste". There is no career to be had under those terms.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2020, 14:23
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Krug departure, Merlot transition
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Exactly. Temporary pay sacrifices (even significant ones) are fine and I think most have been more than happy to accept them, and will accept more, lasting as long as the crisis lasts. This is an unprecedented situation and we all know that.

Permanent cuts to terms and conditions are a different story and would simply be opportunistic cost-cutting. When things pick up again (and they will) you wonít ever be getting those back.

If they need more cost cutting than that, then they have to start getting rid of people (which I suspect they need to do, regardless). How they do that is up to them.

Until then, stop offering up your colleaguesí terms and conditions on the sacrificial altar.


main_dog is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2020, 14:33
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Earth
Posts: 65
Sure, I agree that cuts should be temporary without a doubt and by no means am I suggesting that those who agreed to a contract should be forced to have permanent cuts once things are back to normal (whenever that will be), but sadly I think there will be a lot of "restructuring" at all major airlines in the world... some worse then others. Is it correct? Well, I won't yes or no, as I am not fond of any form of "management" in general; I have had my fair share of upsets in various jobs outside of aviation to understand that

But constantly moaning about it won't help. In the part of the world I am, it's the same story, pilots cutting each others throats... we are nowhere near as united as we should be, and it seems to be mostly a generational thing from what I have seen

Anyways, I wish you all the best and hope to see you in the skies.
a334 is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2020, 14:41
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Asia
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by Coronavirus View Post
Todays Q3 email doesnít have the best outlook for the next 3 years. Cutbacks will happen, and pilots arenít immune.

Every pilot Iíve flown with since the beginning of this crisis, who is on arapa, thinks that they will come out of this on the same contract and terms that theyíre on today. They are in complete denial that this will be one of the first items the company will cut come Q4. They believe that they, and only they, can captain these 747s, 777s, and Airbuses safely. Cadet pilots arenít qualified to be captains. Only arapa pilots are good and experienced enough to do the job and thatís why they wonít be losing their housing.

So the question I ask is; when will you arapa pilots join the rest of the world. Weíre all going to come out of this with some loss. Why do you feel invincible? How fast will you sign over to a new contract once itís the only one being offered by the company?

I respect you all, but itís time to stop living in dreamland.
What a vacuous load of misguided bollocks. Delete this thread due to a complete lack of substance.
Bangaluru is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2020, 15:23
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Asia
Posts: 126
Lose is a verb that means “to fail to win, to misplace, or to free oneself from something or someone.” Loose is an adjective that means “not tight.

Herewego75, please learn how to spell.
Dilbert68 is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2020, 16:16
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Originally Posted by Dilbert68 View Post
Lose is a verb that means “to fail to win, to misplace, or to free oneself from something or someone.” Loose is an adjective that means “not tight.

Herewego75, please learn how to spell.
Bugger, the spelling police are about. At your beds everyone.
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Old 12th Aug 2020, 17:47
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Join Date: Feb 2004
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Originally Posted by Dilbert68 View Post
Lose is a verb that means “to fail to win, to misplace, or to free oneself from something or someone.” Loose is an adjective that means “not tight.

Herewego75, please learn how to spell.
For God’s sake, why can’t people like you learn to include closing quotation marks?
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Old 12th Aug 2020, 18:31
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Join Date: Mar 2020
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*Popcorn chewing intensifies*
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Old 12th Aug 2020, 23:46
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: planet earth
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And once arapa is gone, what do you think will be next their next target? That's right, your beloved HKPA.
It amazes me the glee that some have over the demise of arapa without realizing the detrimental impact it will have on their own contracts in the future.
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Old 13th Aug 2020, 00:23
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Join Date: Aug 2008
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Originally Posted by doolay View Post
And once arapa is gone, what do you think will be next their next target? That's right, your beloved HKPA.
It amazes me the glee that some have over the demise of arapa without realizing the detrimental impact it will have on their own contracts in the future.
Indeed, but thatís the benefit of a dumbed down workforce. They arenít even thinking beyond their next meal. Forget about chess, checkers is a challenge.
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Old 13th Aug 2020, 01:26
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Join Date: Sep 2012
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Originally Posted by doolay View Post
And once arapa is gone, what do you think will be next their next target? That's right, your beloved HKPA.
It amazes me the glee that some have over the demise of arapa without realizing the detrimental impact it will have on their own contracts in the future.
I was going to start as an SO earlier this year, but thanks to Covid, that was cancelled and I am now unemployed and looking to start from the bottom once again (likely chucking bags into aircraft in the bush). Despite this, I truly hope CX sticks to LIFO even if it means I won't be flying.. erm babysitting... a CX aircraft for a handful of years or more, for the exact reason you stated. The last thing I want is for all of the experience to leave the flightdeck and then to have my contract slashed during the next crisis. Although, COS18 means nothing anyways with all of the "at company's discretion," so maybe it would happen anyways. Anyhow, once you accept anything other than what the contract states, you've set the precedence for the company to do whatever they want as they please. Take short term concessions, but please don't take any permanent concessions.
Porterboy is offline  
Old 13th Aug 2020, 06:14
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 35
Originally Posted by doolay View Post
And once arapa is gone, what do you think will be next their next target? That's right, your beloved HKPA.
It amazes me the glee that some have over the demise of arapa without realizing the detrimental impact it will have on their own contracts in the future.
Has anyone that wants to scrap ARAPA realized that any new contract comes with age 65 retirement?

What do you think that does to upgrade times in a shrinking airline?

We should all be hoping people get to stay on COS 99 and leave at 55.
Speed Weasel is offline  

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