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CX management. Moral Turpidude

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

CX management. Moral Turpidude

Old 20th Jun 2020, 17:44
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: All over
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by ACMS View Post
Quite simple.

LAST IN, FIRST OUT.

End of story.
lifo will NEVER happen. Pilots that joined the company on COS18 are the future, unless of course you are willing to sign over to cos 18, in which case it could work. Everyone signs over to a common COS, THERE AFTER lifo could apply. Very few airlines in the world are adhering to contractual obligations.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 17:58
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
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Originally Posted by fly1981 View Post
lifo will NEVER happen. Pilots that joined the company on COS18 are the future, unless of course you are willing to sign over to cos 18, in which case it could work. Everyone signs over to a common COS, THERE AFTER lifo could apply. Very few airlines in the world are adhering to contractual obligations.
That is false; at least in the case of US carriers.

Who have honored theirs and offered attractive voluntary options; completely honoring their CBA. Including some very attractive early out options such that they can set their manning levels where desired and still comply with their CBA.

A CBA breach in terms of not following the terms delineated in the layoff and recall provisions would certainly be enforceable in this jurisdiction (either arbitration, court, or both) as well as many others. It is not a gray area.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 18:44
  #83 (permalink)  
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LIFO is going to have to be observed. I would be more concerned in HOW they manage to accommodate that. I suspect that there will be shenanigans regarding the bases. They will also probably offer an early retirement option, but nothing very attractive...but just attractive enough to convince those that have had enough. We'll all see soon enough.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 02:08
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Originally Posted by Slasher1 View Post
That is false; at least in the case of US carriers.

Who have honored theirs and offered attractive voluntary options; completely honoring their CBA. Including some very attractive early out options such that they can set their manning levels where desired and still comply with their CBA.

A CBA breach in terms of not following the terms delineated in the layoff and recall provisions would certainly be enforceable in this jurisdiction (either arbitration, court, or both) as well as many others. It is not a gray area.
the US carriers are not ‘ expat orientated’ airlines, you can not compare them to cathay. Emirates, qatar( shortly...) Korean, asiana...even BA are going about it how ever they deem fit. Who knows how this is going to play out. I would be cautious basing your future plans on you position in the seniority order. Fact of the matter, they going to be looking at saving money, cos18 pilots at the bottom of the seniority list cost a fraction of what pilots half way up the list cost, and they do the same job.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 03:06
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Originally Posted by fly1981 View Post
.......cos18 pilots at the bottom of the seniority list cost a fraction of what pilots half way up the list cost, and they do the same job.
Admittedly, they do in fact make significantly less than the top half of the seniority list. However, merely wearing the same uniform does not mean they can do the same job. Were Cathay to flush the experience out of the Airline by closing bases - filled with senior Captains and Relief FOs or say goodbye to the largely idle HK 777 crews and hand the reigns over to abinitio and flying club pilots that fill all those COS18 positions, they would make the Company Accountants happy.........right up until the worldwide headlines and scrutiny that comes with the inevitable public mistake.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 03:53
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Originally Posted by bm330 View Post
However, merely wearing the same uniform does not mean they can do the same job. Were Cathay to flush the experience out of the Airline by closing bases - filled with senior Captains and Relief FOs or say goodbye to the largely idle HK 777 crews and hand the reigns over to abinitio and flying club pilots that fill all those COS18 positions, they would make the Company Accountants happy.........
I think your assessment of the cos18 pilot pool is incorrect. Sure, the SO’s employed could be considered ‘abinitio flying club’ pilots, the defo’s( and there are many of them) on the other hand have very relative experience, fill the gap quit nicely. The likes of EK/QR have been putting 35 year olds in the left seat of 380’s for years, with 5 years company experience, before that many were regional jet pilots, the only reason time to command at cx is what it is, is because historically the contracts have been so good, people don’t leave, it has absolutely nothing to do with experience required to do the job. once in the left seat, captains are ‘coining’ it, and guys in the right seat are happy to give up command at lower paying airlines, and wait their turn, knowing full well that their salary in the right seat is equatable to many smaller airlines captain salary’s. The age old argument of ‘grey beard’ experience being required to ‘do the job’ is obsolete, it is not, that fact has been proven by airlines all over the world. Your number in the seniority order this current day in age, especially as an expat, means nothing. Same goes for your experience, as long as it is relative, the job will get done.

I find the number of users advocating redundancy on this thread disgusting, I am willing to bet that many of those guilty are relying on their number in seniority to comfort themselves at night, well, you just keep telling yourselves that, Heaven forbid, if it does come
To redundancy I hope you are taught a lesson. Have some empathy .

Last edited by fly1981; 21st Jun 2020 at 05:35.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 05:27
  #87 (permalink)  
hyg
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Originally Posted by fly1981 View Post
I think your assessment of the cos18 pilot pool is incorrect. Sure, the SO’s employed could be considered ‘abinitio flying club’ pilots, the defo’s( and there are many of them) on the other hand have very relative experience, fill the gap quit nicely. The likes of EK/QR have been putting 35 year olds in the left seat of 380’s for years, with 5 years company experience, before that many were regional jet pilots, the only reason time to command at cx is what it is, is because historically the contracts have been so good, people don’t leave, it has absolutely nothing to do with experience required to do the job. once in the left seat, captains are ‘coining’ it, and guys in the right seat are happy to give up command at lower paying airlines, and wait their turn, knowing full well that their salary in the right seat is equatable to many smaller airlines captain salary’s. The age old argument of ‘grey beard’ experience being required to ‘do the job’ is obsolete, it is not, that fact has been proven by airlines all over the world. Your number in the seniority order this current day in age, especially as an expat, means nothing. Same goes for your experience, as long as it is relative, the job will get done.

I find the number of users advocating redundancy on this thread disgusting, I am willing to bet that many of those guilty are relying on their number in seniority to comfort themselves at night, well, you just keep telling yourselves that, Heaven forbid, if it does come
To redundancy I hope you are taught a lesson. Have some emphatic.
I do believe there could be the possibility of redundancy as well but like myself, many other people I spoke to believe it won't be LIFO... people I spoke to and myself are all relatively safe in the case of LIFO, but realistically, why would the company leave the expensive options in while getting rid of the cheaper option, it simply doesn't make commercial sense. If you have an alternate when you go flying, I believe you should have one for your life too, putting all hopes into the fact that the company is going to observe the LIFO clause in the contract is I believe pure wishful thinking in this current climate.

Besides, if after things like SARS, GFC, people still can't see there's an even slight chance that their job/income could be in peril when shit happens and put away some decent amount of saving or preparing for an alternative career when need to, that's just not good planning.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 06:09
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
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If Cx does unfortunately go down the redundancy path then I’d imagine management will simply choose who stays and who goes. Dismissal notices will be given in accordance with 35.3. Payment will be the higher of 35.3 or 32.3 (not a lot of difference anyway).

What are the options for those affected?
The only real option is a legal challenge. But for what recourse? After years of fighting through the courts they may win an unfair dismissal case but the payment already made exceeds the payment they’d receive in accordance with the EO. So it’d simply be a very expensive hollow victory.

Last edited by Progress Wanchai; 21st Jun 2020 at 11:50.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 09:31
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
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Originally Posted by fly1981 View Post
the US carriers are not ‘ expat orientated’ airlines, you can not compare them to cathay. Emirates, qatar( shortly...) Korean, asiana...even BA are going about it how ever they deem fit. Who knows how this is going to play out. I would be cautious basing your future plans on you position in the seniority order. Fact of the matter, they going to be looking at saving money, cos18 pilots at the bottom of the seniority list cost a fraction of what pilots half way up the list cost, and they do the same job.
To summarize, you're 39, DEFO and on Cos18 and you'd like the senior pilots to take the fall so you can remain employed, because you were happy to prostitute yourself to get the job and you're in fact doing the same job as a 12 years FO or maybe even a senior Captain, but from the other seat?

Wishful thinking. Maybe you should have thought before you quit your previous job to go to the bottom of a seniority list?
Maybe you should be the one with a plan B?
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 09:35
  #90 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Oztrailia
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Originally Posted by Zapp_Brannigan View Post
To summarize, you're 39, DEFO and on Cos18 and you'd like the senior pilots to take the fall so you can remain employed, because you were happy to prostitute yourself to get the job and you're in fact doing the same job as a 12 years FO or maybe even a senior Captain, but from the other seat?

Wishful thinking. Maybe you should have thought before you quit your previous job to go to the bottom of a seniority list?
Maybe you should be the one with a plan B?
+1................
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 09:42
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
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Originally Posted by hyg View Post
I do believe there could be the possibility of redundancy as well but like myself, many other people I spoke to believe it won't be LIFO... people I spoke to and myself are all relatively safe in the case of LIFO, but realistically, why would the company leave the expensive options in while getting rid of the cheaper option, it simply doesn't make commercial sense. If you have an alternate when you go flying, I believe you should have one for your life too, putting all hopes into the fact that the company is going to observe the LIFO clause in the contract is I believe pure wishful thinking in this current climate.

Besides, if after things like SARS, GFC, people still can't see there's an even slight chance that their job/income could be in peril when shit happens and put away some decent amount of saving or preparing for an alternative career when need to, that's just not good planning.

so says you......simple in theory.

Oh and just for your reference, after you consider the HK COS18 SCN total pay package ( not counting education allowances and the possibility of the 13th month which will return eventually ) I’m still paid less as a SCN on my Oz base at the end of the year.

So Cx could chose to disregard my legally enforceable contract ( which they only just happily signed onto in the EBA ) or they could make me redundant, cost them 6 months payout and lose an experienced commander BUT save no salary costs each year......why would they bother........

riddle me that Batman....
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 10:04
  #92 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Originally Posted by Zapp_Brannigan View Post
To summarize, you're 39, DEFO and on Cos18 and you'd like the senior pilots to take the fall so you can remain employed, because you were happy to prostitute yourself to get the job and you're in fact doing the same job as a 12 years FO or maybe even a senior Captain, but from the other seat?

Wishful thinking. Maybe you should have thought before you quit your previous job to go to the bottom of a seniority list?
Maybe you should be the one with a plan B?
i don’t work for cx unfortunately, and I’m not at the bottom of the seniority list. the only part you got right was 39...👍having been through redundancy more than once in my career, i always have a plan B. I understand redundancy and what it does to people’s lives, especially the ones with kids, the fact that redundancy is not on the cards at this stage, but you still have senior pilots advocating it Is shocking... well, only time will tell, let’s see how this plays out, maybe sometime in the future you will be forced off that high horse.

Last edited by fly1981; 21st Jun 2020 at 10:15.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 10:34
  #93 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Oztrailia
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Originally Posted by fly1981 View Post
i don’t work for cx unfortunately, and I’m not at the bottom of the seniority list. the only part you got right was 39...👍having been through redundancy more than once in my career, i always have a plan B. I understand redundancy and what it does to people’s lives, especially the ones with kids, the fact that redundancy is not on the cards at this stage, but you still have senior pilots advocating it Is shocking... well, only time will tell, let’s see how this plays out, maybe sometime in the future you will be forced off that high horse.

I for one have lost my job before as well and had to rebuild from scratch. I’m not getting just within 10 years of the finish line with life left in me yet only to be pushed out because I’m thought to be “too senior”............heck no.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 11:15
  #94 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: planet earth
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the fact that redundancy is not on the cards at this stage, but you still have senior pilots advocating it Is shocking.
No one is 'advocating' Redundancy. What is being said is;
We don't want redundancy to happen to anyone, however, if it does come to that in the future, then it has got to be LIFO.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 11:33
  #95 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
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Originally Posted by doolay View Post
No one is 'advocating' Redundancy. What is being said is;
We don't want redundancy to happen to anyone, however, if it does come to that in the future, then it has got to be LIFO.
Good luck with that. Meritocracy is coming. Or a demeritocracy rather.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 12:12
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: HK
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Originally Posted by doolay View Post
No one is 'advocating' Redundancy. What is being said is;
We don't want redundancy to happen to anyone, however, if it does come to that in the future, then it has got to be LIFO.
Read back through the thread, some people are advocating redundancies now over SLS. Like turkey's voting Christmas.... turkey's with their heads buried in the sand thinking the seniority list will save them.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 12:39
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
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Originally Posted by fly1981 View Post
I think your assessment of the cos18 pilot pool is incorrect. Sure, the SO’s employed could be considered ‘abinitio flying club’ pilots, the defo’s( and there are many of them) on the other hand have very relative experience, fill the gap quit nicely. The likes of EK/QR have been putting 35 year olds in the left seat of 380’s for years, with 5 years company experience, before that many were regional jet pilots, the only reason time to command at cx is what it is, is because historically the contracts have been so good, people don’t leave, it has absolutely nothing to do with experience required to do the job. once in the left seat, captains are ‘coining’ it, and guys in the right seat are happy to give up command at lower paying airlines, and wait their turn, knowing full well that their salary in the right seat is equatable to many smaller airlines captain salary’s. The age old argument of ‘grey beard’ experience being required to ‘do the job’ is obsolete, it is not, that fact has been proven by airlines all over the world. Your number in the seniority order this current day in age, especially as an expat, means nothing. Same goes for your experience, as long as it is relative, the job will get done.

I find the number of users advocating redundancy on this thread disgusting, I am willing to bet that many of those guilty are relying on their number in seniority to comfort themselves at night, well, you just keep telling yourselves that, Heaven forbid, if it does come
To redundancy I hope you are taught a lesson. Have some empathy .
No, what is truly disgusting to me is that individuals would join under POS 18 (or 20 or whatever) knowingly undercutting other pilots established in the organization (but apparently feeling entitled enough not to care) and when things made a (predictable) turn south (which is pretty typical of any airline industry) then expect those same people they had previously undercut to take a pay cut to save their jobs (rather than follow the layoff/recall provisions clearly delineated in any of the contracts). Completely contrary to the contract they knowingly signed. And then somehow finding a way to rationalize their snowflake entitled mentality.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 20:06
  #98 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 599
Speaking of Morals ?

Last Friday from SCMP:
"The airline said on Friday it would seek the government’s help in paying 27,000 staff by joining its wage subsidy scheme, which prevents it from making any redundancies."

Is it "moral" to request government assistance from HK taxpayers KNOWING FULL WELL, that certainly 4-5000 will be made redundant regardless ?? Or is it simply CX, as usual, sucking free taxpayer cash from any source it can, because it can. Like the freeloading relative every family seems to have ?

Myself, I find it disturbing on several levels...


p.s. Corona Virus (i.e. CCP Virus) hitting "GLOBAL RECORDS" as you read this !!!


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Old 21st Jun 2020, 20:13
  #99 (permalink)  
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Flex. The reason that covid cases are at a "record"...is that they are completing more tests each day. Ergo, you end up with more identified cases. Not exactly rocket science.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 20:47
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
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Wrong again ?

Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
Flex. The reason that covid cases are at a "record"...is that they are completing more tests each day. Ergo, you end up with more identified cases. Not exactly rocket science.
Not being a rocket scientist, it must be all those darn newspapers I read that are reporting "mass graves" & China shutting down thousands of internal flights etc etc that got me off to a bad start Life is Wonderfull

#VirusDeniers
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