Dont Apply To Cathay

[SandwichOfficer]

Originally Posted by unitedabx

jealous or what ? that's why you'll remain in the RHS. Can't see the wood for the trees. I have people like you to correct my spelling mistakes.

the problem with people who claim to be ‘elite’ is that they very rarely are. I have sat next to Red Arrows Leaders, Falklands Harrier Aces, F18 Jocks, etc who have all been the most pleasant individuals to fly with. And not once have they mentioned that previous ‘elite-ness’.

One of Cathay’s many problems are the individuals who strut around saying things like ‘I have people to do that for me’ and ‘I am an elite pilot’.

You’re not elite. You were born in a different era and you were lucky to be in the right place at the right time. Airline flying is not brain surgery. Yes, there’s a certain amount of aptitude required and everyone has to put in the hard yards to get into an airline. However being a capable and respected Captain is not so straight forward. You may be the former, but I doubt you are the latter.

[main_dog]

Yonisoy, that post should be printed on Flight International. Spot on.

[Tankengine]

Even in the eighties CX was not everything to all pilots.
I can remember drinking with A scalers- the first two beers was all about how much they got paid and investments, after a few more it was how they wish they could have a swim at the beach or eat the fish they caught back in their home country.
A legacy carrier at home is always OK.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Yonosoy,

is it really necessary to discredit everyone who accepts the current conditions ? I find this a bit patronizing , with all due respect.

We don't know the individual options or motives of every single new-joiner. I think one needs to have more appreciation for the tough market out there, limited international working rights ( SA comes to mind), financial aspects regarding the financing of training, personal circumstances ( what if your wife can have a decent incone in Hong Kong?), etc etc.

The very same arguments you are bringing up I heard 15 years ago from A scalers. The industry is changing and that is that. Don't blame kids you don't know nothing about, don't be that guy. No offence intended.

[Amber Vibes]

"tough market out there".... "....the industry is changing"......

Only in Hong Kong through spin and manipulation, and genuinely in a handful of other countries. Otherwise, these comments do not reconcile with the rest of world.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Amber, recruitment target are young cadets with no experience or guys with little experience, the wrong rating, a really bad job, from countries with extreme low wages or simply a not very helpful passport.

Check the options on hand for this group and if you think there are superior offers post it here.

[Dilbert68]

Under current policy, CX will hire anybody to sit in the cockpit. Let that sink in for a moment.

How many of you have extremely successful friends from all walks of life that will confess to you that they always dreamed of being a pilot? They never pursued it because they weren't passionate about aviation to put up with the years of low paying jobs, living in the middle of nowhere, etc. Most of us put our lives on hold just to fly, it was our sole focus and eventually we landed an airline job after much hard work and many life lessons.
That very same job is now being offered to people that are no more qualified than the guy selling me a phone in Mong Kok. They get to bypass all that hard work and end up in the same place as you are. The result is a group of "pilots" that have no knowledge of aviation whatsoever and furthermore, don't care. They are not earger to sponge up information from the senior crew they fly with, they would rather just collect the pay cheque and go home. No wiser after the flight than they were before it.
And you all wonder why the standards are dropping?
As long as the Trainers in this airline keep letting standards drop then they will. I have flown with far too many line pilots who have no right to be there, the writing is on the wall.

You really think this new crop of recruits is going to balk at COS 18? They would come for half.

[Slasher1]

Originally Posted by Dilbert68

Under current policy, CX will hire anybody to sit in the cockpit. Let that sink in for a moment.

How many of you have extremely successful friends from all walks of life that will confess to you that they always dreamed of being a pilot? They never pursued it because they weren't passionate about aviation to put up with the years of low paying jobs, living in the middle of nowhere, etc. Most of us put our lives on hold just to fly, it was our sole focus and eventually we landed an airline job after much hard work and many life lessons.
That very same job is now being offered to people that are no more qualified than the guy selling me a phone in Mong Kok. They get to bypass all that hard work and end up in the same place as you are. The result is a group of "pilots" that have no knowledge of aviation whatsoever and furthermore, don't care. They are not earger to sponge up information from the senior crew they fly with, they would rather just collect the pay cheque and go home. No wiser after the flight than they were before it.
And you all wonder why the standards are dropping?
As long as the Trainers in this airline keep letting standards drop then they will. I have flown with far too many line pilots who have no right to be there, the writing is on the wall.

You really think this new crop of recruits is going to balk at COS 18? They would come for half.

Ya....that's a very good point and the reason that if it were to remain relevant, HKAOA would HAVE to strike over the introduction of POS18 (which many, myself included, have said). POS 18 effectively sidesteps the union through the introduction of individual contracts. On whatever conditions downline.

Whether it has the wherewithal to shut the place down I have no idea (but have my doubts).

No matter what, this is a very certification intensive industry. While you might be able to hire any button pusher you want off the street, it takes TIME and money to obtain the ratings (and HKG is more onerous than many) in order to occupy certain seats and perform certain functions. The new hires can get this on a type of apprenticeship, but it will take significant time to spin them up. In other words, if you DON'T want this to happen, you'll have to act to make it not happen.

And by the time they're spun up, it'll all be over (assuming the company is smart enough to hike their conditions just enough to make them stay, but not enough to sustain a life they're chasing--which they historically have been and probably are--and that the new hires are too dumb to figure out this is what's happening--essentially spending their career chasing a fleeting carrot).

The ONE card the union has is that the company can't (at present) man the airline with the z-gen button pushers. This will change over the next few years. So they have the TIME it takes to spin up these people up to act.

[Amber Vibes]

Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong

Amber, recruitment target are young cadets with no experience or guys with little experience, the wrong rating, a really bad job, from countries with extreme low wages or simply a not very helpful passport.

Check the options on hand for this group and if you think there are superior offers post it here.

"...young cadets with no experience or guys with little experience..." - That's the case everywhere because there is a pilot shortage.
"....the wrong rating,...." - Unless you are employed through an aviation employment agency under a contract, this is not applicable anywhere right now. While it may help, it doesn't hurt.
"...a really bad job...." - That is very subjective. In most cases, regardless of where you work, if your record is clean, and skills and knowledge are up to par, this simply doesn't hold true.
".... from countries with extreme low wages or simply a not very helpful passport...." Yes, this is mostly true for a small minority, but again exception --- not the rule.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Amber,

the reality is people are joining. You might not approve, but they do.

[Air Profit]

S.T.W. You have just highlighted the issue that will prove the eventual downfall of CX. You are right, "people" are joining. The problem is, "pilots" aren't joining. I'll let you figure out the nuance in that statement. Once upon a time you had to be a pilot to be employed at CX. Now, barely out of adolescence and with no knowledge of aviation makes you a "pilot" in CX. That can't and won't end well. Most of us now at CX see the writing on the wall and are making plans to escape this rudderless, sinking ship. They can try and replace us with "people" all they want, but that doesn't substitute for experience, loyalty, dedication and wisdom. One day the headlines in the paper will make that apparent.

[mngmt mole]

Another corrosive factor in the ever declining standards and career outlook for CX pilots is the fact that CX can, and will, hire anyone from anywhere. There was a time when they only hired the "best", mainly airline pilots from other established first world carriers, or RAF/RAAF pilots, either transport or fast-jet. There was NEVER any question of their abilities as pilots, or as individuals. Now, we have seen the airline populated by people who normally would have been clerking in a bank, working in hotel management or waiting in a restaurant. We now have people from more third world nations than first world nations flying for CX. Look around dispatch during the busy times of day and the writing is on the wall as to where this airline is heading. The day of the experienced, first world thinking expat pilot at CX is over. In another 10 years, there will be few expats left, and it will be (especially in HK) another Chinese airline. Not saying that with bitterness, simply an acknowledgement of where the management have allowed CX to evolve. It will be a lonely place for the few western expats on the flight deck, and much sooner than most suspected. As that realisation is now sinking in, it is causing the ever increasing exodus of expats from CX, replaced by the ever increasing stream of mainly local wannabe cadets, who's knowledge of "aviation" is less than most school boys in the UK. Come back in 10 years and we can debate the accuracy of the above. I will place a bet that I am not far off. It's over, and it's time for anyone who can establish a career back in their home countries to realise that the sooner they make the move, the better off they will eventually be. To stay here is to wither and die.

[unitedabx]

Originally Posted by mngmt mole

Another corrosive factor in the ever declining standards and career outlook for CX pilots is the fact that CX can, and will, hire anyone from anywhere. There was a time when they only hired the "best", mainly airline pilots from other established first world carriers, or RAF/RAAF pilots, either transport or fast-jet. There was NEVER any question of their abilities as pilots, or as individuals. Now, we have seen the airline populated by people who normally would have been clerking in a bank, working in hotel management or waiting in a restaurant. We now have people from more third world nations than first world nations flying for CX. Look around dispatch during the busy times of day and the writing is on the wall as to where this airline is heading. The day of the experienced, first world thinking expat pilot at CX is over. In another 10 years, there will be few expats left, and it will be (especially in HK) another Chinese airline. Not saying that with bitterness, simply an acknowledgement of where the management have allowed CX to evolve. It will be a lonely place for the few western expats on the flight deck, and much sooner than most suspected. As that realisation is now sinking in, it is causing the ever increasing exodus of expats from CX, replaced by the ever increasing stream of mainly local wannabe cadets, who's knowledge of "aviation" is less than most school boys in the UK. Come back in 10 years and we can debate the accuracy of the above. I will place a bet that I am not far off. It's over, and it's time for anyone who can establish a career back in their home countries to realise that the sooner they make the move, the better off they will eventually be. To stay here is to wither and die.

MM,

You are spot on with that post. Anyone who thinks differently is a fool.

[Avinthenews]

Hong Kong has been under China for over two decades I'm not sure why many still think CX will end with the standard of "pilots" it hires. Cathay IS A CHINESE AIRLINE it's based in Hong Kong, I think many are drinking their own cool aid, it's not a western one because it hires expats, several asian airlines hire expats, the writing is on the wall, CX won't end and "pilots" of all nationalities will continue to join.

The airline isn't what many of us joined and it's never going back, it's morphed into Korean or an old Singapore Airlines from it's expat heyday except we still have the worst rostering lifestyle control of possibly all other airlines.

If you think you're joining some fancy expat friendly airline you're not, it's an asian airlines that may have an incident like Korean or Singapore Airlines but it'll survive just like they have.

If you're a westerner and have put CX on some pedestal since you were a kid, perhaps you should replace it with your local major or runner up. Hey even Korean has a better roster so you can commute.

[letsfly75]

I’m finished

After 10 years at CX I’m out. The writing is on the wall. I did like this job but I just don’t see a future here.

[Amber Vibes]

Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong

Amber,

the reality is people are joining. You might not approve, but they do.

Whether I approve or not is neither here nor there. I was simply responding to your misapprehensions. Your remarks are inflammatory and misleading, or at best misinformed. Sorry, but there it is.

[Staggers]

Originally Posted by Meikleour

Staggers : A real measure of the "old CX" would be if you remember/experienced the 3 hour Noel Jones debriefs!!! I only experienced it once on command training and it almost resulted in a physical response.

I remember them/him well; actually saw him laugh at himself once!

[Staggers]

Originally Posted by Good Business Sense

"Thumbwheel" :-)

and TL told me that story himself when I was doing my L1011 conversion.

[Staggers]

One has to ask why we endured such silliness.
My take on it is that we all thought we had won the lottery and that trivia apart it was about the best deal going. Sadly it has gone steadily down hill after the 80s.

[mngmt mole]

...”endured such silliness “...?? Would rather be back enduring that “silliness “ than the mindless incompetence and pointlessness of the current era. At least the managers back then still stood up for their pilots.