FG VHHH 16th
'Commanders Discretion' should be 'Crew Discretion' anyway. All the Captain can do is ask his crew if they are fit to extend their FDP. He cannot declare that they will and the operating authority can't ask/order him to extend ( or even assume that he will and not bother to position a relief crew).
If you want to see a version of how the sky will fall in upon you from every aspect of your life should anything happen during your RTB 'goodwill gesture", take a look at the film of Sully. Cathay will not support you and will confirm that their top priority is safety and support you being hung, drawn and quartered.
Go to a Hotel and have your 10 hours rest. Cathay won't even bat an eyelid.
If you want to see a version of how the sky will fall in upon you from every aspect of your life should anything happen during your RTB 'goodwill gesture", take a look at the film of Sully. Cathay will not support you and will confirm that their top priority is safety and support you being hung, drawn and quartered.
Go to a Hotel and have your 10 hours rest. Cathay won't even bat an eyelid.
Last edited by Arfur Dent; 18th Mar 2018 at 19:46.
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The SO is not required to be a crew member on the recovery flight so technically ADFUS you are correct , but if the FO says sorry I can’t do it what is the Capt going to do order him to fly . Any time I have ever used discretion in the years before CC I always asked every crew member how they felt . If anyone said that they were fatigued that was it ,we went to the hotel no questions asked ,and as far as the company was concerned it was always my decision should they ever ask which they never did .
It makes little sense to use CD. Just puts yourself at risk. One of the flights didn't make it back for 5 hours. In that time they could have easily called a crew out and no questions would be asked.
I have seen crew control change the SO to a PX duty on a TPE-HKG return sector to avoid EFP.
The SO is not required to be a crew member on the recovery flight so technically ADFUS you are correct , but if the FO says sorry I can’t do it what is the Capt going to do order him to fly . Any time I have ever used discretion in the years before CC I always asked every crew member how they felt . If anyone said that they were fatigued that was it ,we went to the hotel no questions asked ,and as far as the company was concerned it was always my decision should they ever ask which they never did .
What I meant CrwKunt (as I'm sure you realise) is that the Commander cannot extend without asking his crew if they agree. Much easier in the current climate if the Captain simply states that he's fatigued - it's called "Leadership".
It's more definite than that. The Air navigation order makes it an offence for anyone to operate when fatigued, and for anyone to make someone operate when they have informed you they are fatigued. This applies to the company and commanders alike. If as a Captain one of the crew informs you they are fatigued but you make the decision to tell them they are operating, then you have broken the law.
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I can’t believe anyone would use CD on either a 3 man or a 2 S/O LRO.
There is no hope left if this is the mentality of our pilots.
Maybe as a reward they’ll get to go on a float with the prancing carrot at next year’s CNY parade...
There is no hope left if this is the mentality of our pilots.
Maybe as a reward they’ll get to go on a float with the prancing carrot at next year’s CNY parade...
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The SO is not required to be a crew member on the recovery flight so technically ADFUS you are correct
My understanding:
The Captain carries the authority and, more importantly, the responsibility.
CD is the Captain exercising an FTL defined discretion with agreement from all participating crew members.
Captains decision is ‘final’. That means it cannot be overridden.
However, the reasoning and processes leading to the Captains decision in exercising Discretion (or not) can and are open to explanation and review. A case of suspension pending review when CX doesn’t like the decision: Fact.
Upshot: The decision is usually made in a potentially fatigue and time risking environment. The Commercial and Job Security pressures to exercise CD are higher than can be appreciated by a keyboard warrior. The Captain also carries the can if the CD goes pear shaped. Therein lies the CD dilemma.
The Captain carries the authority and, more importantly, the responsibility.
CD is the Captain exercising an FTL defined discretion with agreement from all participating crew members.
Captains decision is ‘final’. That means it cannot be overridden.
However, the reasoning and processes leading to the Captains decision in exercising Discretion (or not) can and are open to explanation and review. A case of suspension pending review when CX doesn’t like the decision: Fact.
Upshot: The decision is usually made in a potentially fatigue and time risking environment. The Commercial and Job Security pressures to exercise CD are higher than can be appreciated by a keyboard warrior. The Captain also carries the can if the CD goes pear shaped. Therein lies the CD dilemma.
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Just say NO. It isn't that difficult. Most of us can figure that out (other than the 'prancing carrot'). Say NO, and then let them sort the problem out. Not your responsibility.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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with agreement from all participating crew members.
What effect does it have on a crew member's duty period if they are called in from standby? With my last employer it only effected the subsequent rest period which could not be reduced prior to next duty. Prior to that, in the UK, 50% of the actual period spent on standby counted towards the duty period that followed, quite restrictive on long haul, less so on short haul.
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You guys must be nascar fans, cause you Really enjoy going around in circles.
The truth of the matter is that had all 6 flights pulled the plug at the alternates last week, this week we would be having serious progress on actually fixing things.
Stop going in circles and start actually doing something. Don’t be stupid about it, and bull**** your way out of it with as much safety jargon as humanely possible. The end result will be... big surprise here: actual results.
Imagine that.
The truth of the matter is that had all 6 flights pulled the plug at the alternates last week, this week we would be having serious progress on actually fixing things.
Stop going in circles and start actually doing something. Don’t be stupid about it, and bull**** your way out of it with as much safety jargon as humanely possible. The end result will be... big surprise here: actual results.
Imagine that.
Just put the names up on the Aoa forum — they’re undermining the sacrifices of many in a time of harsh conflict and you continue to allow them anonymity. I’m not suggesting persecution but the members under duress have a right to know who the collaborators are.
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I didn’t think so
