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Polar near one.

Old 24th Sep 2017, 17:03
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Polar near one.

Woken up by Polar turning right too soon off 07R and going over DB just before midnight. How much did he miss Lantau by?
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Old 24th Sep 2017, 17:12
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Under the call sign cx86 operated by polar.
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Old 24th Sep 2017, 17:15
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Yep, approx 2800ft 175kts above DB Marina, direct from 07R DER.

Highest surrounding peak on Lantau 3064ft....it nearly was a Polar Near One.

But man, doesn't a -8 look and sound great!
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Old 24th Sep 2017, 17:24
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How much fuel did he save?
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Old 24th Sep 2017, 17:28
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...this a gee vs haw mixup??
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Old 24th Sep 2017, 17:35
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holy crap,

Went straight over the top, lucky boys.

There by the grace of god we all go.

Last edited by Australia2; 25th Sep 2017 at 03:54.
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Old 24th Sep 2017, 21:22
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In guessing they were assigned the RNAV RASSE 1E since they were filed out over OCEAN after 15Z. The box in the 747-8 would have radius-to-fix capability I would think.

Did some finger trouble drop out PORPA and perhaps LNAV was taking them direct PORSH?

Originally Posted by catpac View Post
Yep, approx 2800ft 175kts above DB Marina, direct from 07R DER.

Highest surrounding peak on Lantau 3064ft....it nearly was a Polar Near One
The FlightRadar24 .kml data shows them crossing Lantau Highway at 2050 feet (uncorrected):

2017-09-24 15:45:06 UTC

Altitude: 2,050 ft
Speed: 164 kt
Heading: 109°
And Discovery Bay Road at 2675 feet:

2017-09-24 15:45:43 UTC

Altitude: 2,675 ft
Speed: 165 kt
Heading: 100°
Here's the 15Z weather:

VHHH 241500Z 12012KT 090V170 9999 FEW020 SCT030 29/25 Q1009 NOSIG

They must have got an EGPWS warning with a nav display terrain popup on both sides lit up like a Christmas tree, right?

It appears that the hill they passed closest to has an elevation of about 1500 feet from the topo maps.

CX 905 to MNL departing behind Polar was given a tower clearance to maintain 3000 feet and follow the SID which they questioned as being below their terrain minimums. Unfortunately, Polar's departure control conversation on 123.8 does not seem to be available on LiveATC.net.

Was the CVR breaker pulled after an ACARS from Polar flight ops? Or, as with other recent incidents will the recording be overwritten as the crew heads out over the NOPAC to ANC on A590 right now?

Last edited by Airbubba; 25th Sep 2017 at 01:35.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 01:44
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Children of the Magenta Line.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 18:37
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Seriously don't pilots read the SID anymore . Very pleased that they got away with it and didn't plough into any parts of DB
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 22:14
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Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post

CX 905 to MNL departing behind Polar was given a tower clearance to maintain 3000 feet and follow the SID which they questioned as being below their terrain minimums.
If you look at your terrain chart you will actually see that 3000ft is acceptable and ABOVE terrain clearance till about north and east of Tsing Yi (OCEAN SID) and all the way to PECAN. “Maintain 3000ft” gets occasionally issued by the tower if the preceeding aircraft’s ROC is low or if the crew is not adhearing to speed control (ie. Mainland carriers).

East of SMT and CH VOR is fine for 3000ft till you hit the New Territories and even Hong Kong Island can be overflown at that altitude legally if under radar control.

But I guess most of our kids wouldn’t even know where these two VORs actually are.

Last edited by AQIS Boigu; 25th Sep 2017 at 22:32.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 22:49
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Some terrain awareness on this ATC Surveillance Minimum Altitude Chart:

http://www.hkatc.gov.hk/HK_AIP/AIP/AD/HK_AD2-101.pdf

Looks like the hill they flew by on the way to buzz DB is charted as 1527 feet elevation.
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 23:55
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Once you deviate from the SID below MSA you are in the realms of pure luck. The peak altitudes and roc are immaterial, you shouldn't be there and the outcome is a roll of the dice. This sort of event is occurring with increasing regularity. This is the effect ...... what could be the cause??
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Old 25th Sep 2017, 23:57
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flightradar24 had recorded them at an altitude of 2141’ over that point of high ground (1527’). Whatever went wrong, just glad everyone is okay, aside from a few spilled drinks in the DB plaza ;-)
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Old 26th Sep 2017, 02:23
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Originally Posted by 744drv View Post
Once you deviate from the SID below MSA you are in the realms of pure luck.
Originally Posted by AQIS Boigu View Post
If you look at your terrain chart you will actually see that 3000ft is acceptable and ABOVE terrain clearance till about north and east of Tsing Yi (OCEAN SID) and all the way to PECAN. “Maintain 3000ft” gets occasionally issued by the tower if the preceeding aircraft’s ROC is low or if the crew is not adhearing to speed control (ie. Mainland carriers).

East of SMT and CH VOR is fine for 3000ft till you hit the New Territories and even Hong Kong Island can be overflown at that altitude legally if under radar control.
I can see where CX 905 was concerned about maintaining 3000 for the turn south toward RAMEN because the MSA is 4300 north of the 255 radial of TD. However, as AQIS Boigu points out, 3000 is OK from the ATC Surveillance Minimum Altitude Chart. CX 905 was told to stay on the SID (and not follow the folks ahead on the shortcut over DB ).

Originally Posted by Curtain rod View Post
But maybe the publicity (and fine?) from this one will provide some food for thought...oh wait!
Previous incidents suggest that a freighter on a midnight takeoff where nothing was bent might not generate much media attention.

Will there even be an investigation? Or will the crew file a safety report about the deviation and get a slap on the wrist for a nighttime noise violation?

Was the CVR 'accidentally' written over? Was a terrain escape maneuver performed in response to a EGPWS warning?

Did the crew debrief in ANC at F Street or the Bush Company?
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Old 26th Sep 2017, 05:40
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Many moons ago (around 200 or so) Air France executed a similar departure. This was back when the PORPA fix was published on the SID plate as some radial (lets say 100) and 2nm SMT. If you turn at 2nm SMT without looking at the radial you are right where Polar turned. At least they (AF) had a very weak/lame excuse. Be kinda hard to explain with a -8 database. Mind you there is a PORPA intersection in Argentina hmmm.
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Old 26th Sep 2017, 09:38
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OTP..every shortcut counts!
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Old 26th Sep 2017, 09:41
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This flight is an Atlas Air operated flight for CX. Polar does not have any pilots as they are Atlas pilots operating under the Polar Air Cargo Certificate. And yes, someone screwed up!
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Old 26th Sep 2017, 09:43
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What about not changing the SID as selected on the box and then check it (twice). And then fly it (note, I did not imply follow the MAGENTA - the B777 fleet got into trouble doing just that, following, not flying - at ZRH and made CX a laughing stock). Oh, and FOs that I (mainly) fly with, that includes the 5000 stop ALT so stop deleting it!

I presume the 3000ft could come from 'our' ENG INOP procedure that it is OK to ACCEL (down to level flight) when 2500AMSL is reached on track 190°? So ATC and the procedure designers might have a bit more info at their fingertips.
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Old 26th Sep 2017, 10:45
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Did the crew debrief in ANC at F Street or the Bush Company?
Yes, and in that order
Recollect debriefing a little transgression in the forecourt of a filling (gas) station which sold beer.
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Old 26th Sep 2017, 10:58
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http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ghlight=Buddha

It will become an ICAO standard......only in Fragrant Harbour.
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