Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Crew Complement

Old 13th Jul 2017, 16:18
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 835
So, less FO's needed, and much longer time as SO. Yes, another brilliant move to improve moral amongst the pilot group. :/
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 13th Jul 2017, 16:39
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: U/S
Posts: 282
$afety will always take priority
Average Fool is offline  
Old 13th Jul 2017, 17:08
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 835
Anyone who is under 45 yrs of age and is not looking at every opportunity to leave is a fool. There has never been a year in the past 25 where harm has not been done to the career aspirations of professional pilots. If you stay, you are guaranteeing a career of frustration, misery and eventual bitter anger. You will also put your families through the same upset and unhappiness. There are far better companies and far better parts of the world to focus your efforts on.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 13th Jul 2017, 17:39
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 367
3 man to or from Europe is fine if it's a daylight flight for the crew both ways.
But throw in a night flight both ways ,with a midnight or later departure from HK and a possible difficult winter approach in Europe things start to get interesting .
Even that could possibly be managed if the crews weren't operating very close to 100 hours every month , and everyone was getting 4-5 days off before and after the flight , accumulated fatigue will become a major factor
To say nothing of the lack of flexibility of crews should someone go sick . Somehow I suspect that a number of pilots will call sick with fatigue .
What will happen should Guanghou create delays for all traffic departing HK Europe bound , ?
File as many AsRFs as you can
oriental flyer is offline  
Old 13th Jul 2017, 23:05
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: By the sea
Posts: 124
So 3 man crew, you get 4 hours rest each to Europe. 2 SO's you get 6 hours rest.
This has got to be a win from where we were headed.
The pilot group have made their contribution to the "Time to win (leave)" bullshit program and seen to have made a consession.
Captain does the hard body clock sector, takes the best rest, FO does the easier one and picks his rest. Just needs some of our more precious left chair super heros to understand this, and it should work OK.
Take your wins where you find them. I sometimes think you lot would complain if you were given bigger dicks.
If your an SO, my apologies for once again thinking it is OK to solve my problems at the expense of those junior to me or not yet joined, sadly it is the Cathay way, and has been from a ways before my 2 decades here started. Maybe your best move is to work
toward your own "Time to leave" program.
pill is offline  
Old 13th Jul 2017, 23:35
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1
How about FA SOs? Surely that will also help safety and save some $$$.
McPhisto is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2017, 00:16
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 20
Pill

You are missing the point.

This is not a debate about 4 man v 3 man or even rest achieved. It's not even a debate about overall experience levels on the flight deck, or even the demographics of the pilot group, which will see an enlarged group of SOs waiting for upgrade to fewer FO positions.

The guts of the safety debate is we will invariably have someone sitting in the operating seat during the critical approach/landing phase who has not had the opportunity to sleep during anything like their optimal sleep window and they have probably encountered the exact same problem 48 hours earlier. In fact, they will probably have a career based on it!!!

Example, the JNB leaves around midnight HK time. The FO will envariably work first and will get a sleep opportunity around 7am body clock. He will then be back in the seat around 1300 body clock having not slept much. I would suggest that's not the real problem. The real problem comes the next day when he returns to HK. He will be expected to go from the bright sunshine of Africa and get 5 hours sleep and then sit in the seat (in the dark) all the way to the gate to HK. He will make the approach intomHK during his WOCL having had only one sleep opportunity during his normal sleep window in 4 days.

If Clockwork found the 3 man 256/254 unacceptable, then I cannot see how they will find this acceptable. That of course assumes they will ever be involved or see any data.

Call me a cynical old fading rockstar, but I wouid wager JNB and LGW were chosen because they are heavily requested and the company anticipates few complaints, until it all goes wrong one day.....
Liam Gallagher is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2017, 00:24
  #28 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 325
What you don't seem to get Pill , is that CX is pushing FOs to become RQ when they haven't even acquired the required experience level yet. So many times I fly with RQ FOs around the region, and clearly some can't even deviate around weather safely. And these are the same ones that will be sitting with brand new SOs. If you're happy playing Russian Roulette then go ahead and defend this new change.
Dragon69 is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2017, 03:22
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 508
You are spot on Dragon 69.

Pill...you on the other hand should wind in your neck. If anyone here is behaving like a hero it's you. This has nothing to do with the size of one's manhood. If you had any real flying time under your belt this would be obvious to you....and spare me the "you have tons of experience" line. You and I both know you don't.

Many SO's have good future potential....but this is another degradation in cockpit experience levels for the sole purpose of cutting costs.

A single crewmember on the flight deck who has only 200 hours of basic...very, very basic....stick time is already a risk. Now there will be two crew with zero experience. I know I won't be resting easy....
raven11 is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2017, 05:00
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 316
7-8 years to upgrade for SO's now? Very big financial blow to the guys and gals out there initially being told upgrade < 3 years
TurningFinalRWY36 is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2017, 06:14
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The sky
Posts: 30
The p2x is limited to 5 years
Natca is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2017, 06:19
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 316
So what happens if an SO has not been upgraded after 5 years?
TurningFinalRWY36 is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2017, 06:46
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: with the other ex-CX pond scum (a zoologist was once head of Flight Ops)
Posts: 0
A boozy lunch with the CAD will sort that out.
Captain Dart is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2017, 07:03
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: No where near home!
Posts: 40
I guess the only way to fight back is for those crew affected to be bothered to submit an ASR-F for every sector this takes place. Will this happen? How often to guys bother when controlled rest has to be taken? Not every time I suspect!
jetstreamrider is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2017, 07:59
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: France
Posts: 69
Originally Posted by Dan Buster View Post
Surely with this latest attack it's time for the HKAOA to revoke support for LOSA volunteers. Not that it ever should have been given in the first place!
No LOSA = no evidence of what's really going on in the cockpit. It's in our interests.
jumbobelle is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2017, 08:49
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Australia
Posts: 290
No LOSA means CX insurance premium goes up $$$.

It's in CX interest to make it happen, they don't have to use CX crew.
Avinthenews is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2017, 08:57
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Honky
Posts: 168
Captain Dart

"A boozy lunch with the CAD will sort that out"

Haha good one
Xwindldg is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2017, 11:25
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Asia
Posts: 91
Originally Posted by Liam Gallagher View Post
The guts of the safety debate is we will invariably have someone sitting in the operating seat during the critical approach/landing phase who has not had the opportunity to sleep during anything like their optimal sleep window and they have probably encountered the exact same problem 48 hours earlier. In fact, they will probably have a career based on it!!!
The only way this is different from India is that on flights landing from India neither of the people in the operating seats have "had the opportunity to sleep during anything like their optimal sleep window".

If this is the guts of the argument, the argument is specious.
Bangaluru is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2017, 12:40
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Fragrant Harbour
Posts: 306
You guys read the NTC all wrong. The 2 SO's are sitting together in cruise and as such provide the Captain and RQ with a 8 hour rest opportunity. Right ....... just kidding
GTC58 is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2017, 14:05
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: hong kong
Posts: 175
Cathay now to employ dogs.

The dog and the SO fly together, the SO is there to feed the dog and the dog is there to bite the SO if he/she touches anything.
The FUB is offline  

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