Good luck surviving in HK on CX pilot pay scales.
Having spoken to several of the South Africans in HK, I get the impression that many are keen to work in the Sandpit as it's so much easier to get home for visits. But they didn't have experience to work for the ME3 at the time. They're getting it now!
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Seems like a win-win no?
Over the years, there have been so many win-win opportunities, but the mangement have steadfastly refused to entertain any of them. It's always been about control.
note: anyone who's been at CX for a while will understand my deliberate misspelling of mangement.
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"Hong Kong and Dubai are not long term options. (for a family of 4)
C Scale at CX and 90+ hours at EK...."
WHY????? WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THE ALTERNATIVES???? NOTHING!!!!!!
I urge you to see Cathay not from YOUR perspective, but from those who join NOW and have to survive in a brutal market.
Since YEARS you guys are fantasizing of crew shortages, smoking holes in the ground, lack of experience, bla bla bla.
NOTHING of these gloom and doom has EVER materialized. EVER!
And STILL you believe it, STILL you judge new joiners, STILL you believe they will run away to EK ( ridiculous!!!), STILL you are patronizing all those poor souls, it is a "no-brainer" bla bla bla.
You just do not understand the LIMITED POSSIBILITIES. The world is different from when YOU came here, the market has totally changed. Jesus!! What is so hard to understand???
STOP FIGHTING HKPA, ACCEPT REALITY, CONCENTRATE ON SAVING ARAPA AND REGULAR PAYRISES !!!!
UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!
C Scale at CX and 90+ hours at EK...."
WHY????? WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THE ALTERNATIVES???? NOTHING!!!!!!
I urge you to see Cathay not from YOUR perspective, but from those who join NOW and have to survive in a brutal market.
Since YEARS you guys are fantasizing of crew shortages, smoking holes in the ground, lack of experience, bla bla bla.
NOTHING of these gloom and doom has EVER materialized. EVER!
And STILL you believe it, STILL you judge new joiners, STILL you believe they will run away to EK ( ridiculous!!!), STILL you are patronizing all those poor souls, it is a "no-brainer" bla bla bla.
You just do not understand the LIMITED POSSIBILITIES. The world is different from when YOU came here, the market has totally changed. Jesus!! What is so hard to understand???
STOP FIGHTING HKPA, ACCEPT REALITY, CONCENTRATE ON SAVING ARAPA AND REGULAR PAYRISES !!!!
UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!
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If I remember rightly the 'Mangers' NTC came out after. Written and spellchecked by 'Richard Gear' I think.
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You just do not understand the LIMITED POSSIBILITIES. The world is different from when YOU came here, the market has totally changed.
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Frank,
I totally agree with you that CX isn't what it used to be, all I am saying is:
what matters for a new-joiner is the relative value of the current contract compared to the alternatives.
We are living in a bubble.
How do you think pilots at HK Airlines or at Air Hong Kong survive? Can they save ? Do they live in big flats?
The world has changed. The idea e.g. to have the luxury of a stay-at-home spouse and a couple of kids, maybe that is a thing of the past?
Again, I am not saying that this is a good thing!
It simply doesn't matter what we think, the market will decide.
Let's not lose ourselves in hypothetical, pointless discussions about what should or could be. Let's face reality. And let's stop patronizing new-joiners and accept they actually DID think well and hard about the terms and conditions before joining.
Which is why I do have empathy for them , but at the same time no motivation to sacrifice my own contract for them.
I did not change the contract, nor did I force anyone to accept it.
PS I still would take Anchorage over Lagos.
I totally agree with you that CX isn't what it used to be, all I am saying is:
what matters for a new-joiner is the relative value of the current contract compared to the alternatives.
We are living in a bubble.
How do you think pilots at HK Airlines or at Air Hong Kong survive? Can they save ? Do they live in big flats?
The world has changed. The idea e.g. to have the luxury of a stay-at-home spouse and a couple of kids, maybe that is a thing of the past?
Again, I am not saying that this is a good thing!
It simply doesn't matter what we think, the market will decide.
Let's not lose ourselves in hypothetical, pointless discussions about what should or could be. Let's face reality. And let's stop patronizing new-joiners and accept they actually DID think well and hard about the terms and conditions before joining.
Which is why I do have empathy for them , but at the same time no motivation to sacrifice my own contract for them.
I did not change the contract, nor did I force anyone to accept it.
PS I still would take Anchorage over Lagos.
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Dan,
are you saying bitching and moaning on the flight deck is an invention of the C scalers?
How did C scale change my contract? When?
C scale has been introduced 7 or 8 years ago, no change yet!
The idea that improved terms on the C scale would protect B scales is absurd. How?
Again, you are losing yourself in mind games and conspiracy theories in my opinion.
are you saying bitching and moaning on the flight deck is an invention of the C scalers?
How did C scale change my contract? When?
C scale has been introduced 7 or 8 years ago, no change yet!
The idea that improved terms on the C scale would protect B scales is absurd. How?
Again, you are losing yourself in mind games and conspiracy theories in my opinion.
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Cathay Dragon crews are helping the company in these difficult times.
A 75% vote to accept an indefinite pay freeze . The agreed freeze is until March 2018 but we know that's not the end of it. Give ' em an inch ....
Local contract guys did ok. Increased levels of child education subsidy and an offer to move over to standard contract therefore allowing those on local B increased housing AND full educational subsidy.
You've gotta laugh though. At what point will management engage in meaningful pay negotiations when they pilot body are such an easy push over ? Just offer another pay freeze in 2018-19, in return the company will look into the pilots medical insurance, salary claims, overnight allowances blah blah.
It will happen, mark my words. And meanwhile inflation continues its inexorable erosion of KA pilots real salary value.
A 75% vote to accept an indefinite pay freeze . The agreed freeze is until March 2018 but we know that's not the end of it. Give ' em an inch ....
Local contract guys did ok. Increased levels of child education subsidy and an offer to move over to standard contract therefore allowing those on local B increased housing AND full educational subsidy.
You've gotta laugh though. At what point will management engage in meaningful pay negotiations when they pilot body are such an easy push over ? Just offer another pay freeze in 2018-19, in return the company will look into the pilots medical insurance, salary claims, overnight allowances blah blah.
It will happen, mark my words. And meanwhile inflation continues its inexorable erosion of KA pilots real salary value.
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Totally agreed, Frank. Some people might regret the move, they might move on, even leave aviation. All quite possible.The current conditions offered might not be sufficient to keep C scalers in the long run.
But why should that matter today in terms of contractual negotiations ?
Why should a company offer better conditions now ?
Wouldn't that be like wearing a fur coat in summer because it will get cold in winter?
If people decide to leave, they could just improve the package, right?
PS I know the 747 roster is very problematic at the moment. No offense was intended.
But why should that matter today in terms of contractual negotiations ?
Why should a company offer better conditions now ?
Wouldn't that be like wearing a fur coat in summer because it will get cold in winter?
If people decide to leave, they could just improve the package, right?
PS I know the 747 roster is very problematic at the moment. No offense was intended.
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Guys, apologies for crashing the CX thread here but it seemed like the best place to post this question. I'd like to address the salary question from the opposite perspective - I'm a bizjet guy and been offered a left seat with a HKG base. I haven't signed the contract but the salary on offer, all in, is coming to $150K HKD/month, no other allowances like house/school. I have a wife, 2 kids, plus 1 on the way. I haven't signed the contract yet but from reading all your posts here am starting to get a bit nervous.
For all you guys out there who have families - is this enough to live on? When I say 'live' I mean send kids to decent international school, rent a place that isn't a shoe-box on 99th floor, run a small car, and still have a bit left over to put in the kitty?
Thanks for your time.
For all you guys out there who have families - is this enough to live on? When I say 'live' I mean send kids to decent international school, rent a place that isn't a shoe-box on 99th floor, run a small car, and still have a bit left over to put in the kitty?
Thanks for your time.
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STW. So, you imply that 'our' comments are dishonest? According to who, yourself?. Why don't you tell him how that is more than enough money to drag his family here. Why don't you tell him that he and his family will enjoy living in a 500 sq/ft apartment. And then of course there's food, utilities, insurance, medical costs (!), transportation, the cost of travel (or I guess the wife and kids can just stay 12mo/yr in HK?). So please, as you chimed in, give the man the 'truth'. 
FYI: SamTingWong had a post up (between mine and the one above) a few minutes ago suggesting that most of us weren't being 'honest' with our account of costs in HK. Well, he deleted his post. I guess he realised that once again he was proving himself a complete w@#ker. Coward.
FYI: SamTingWong had a post up (between mine and the one above) a few minutes ago suggesting that most of us weren't being 'honest' with our account of costs in HK. Well, he deleted his post. I guess he realised that once again he was proving himself a complete w@#ker. Coward.
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http://www.dbis.edu.hk/401/admissions/fees
https://www.spacious.hk/en/hong-kong/discovery-bay/for-rent?gclid=COWWhI2H4NMCFc8TaAod6W8BiQ
PS I personally would not do it, but since
a) I don't know your alternatives
b) you will fall prey to some very angry people in a moment
check out the facts for yourself.
https://www.spacious.hk/en/hong-kong/discovery-bay/for-rent?gclid=COWWhI2H4NMCFc8TaAod6W8BiQ
PS I personally would not do it, but since
a) I don't know your alternatives
b) you will fall prey to some very angry people in a moment
check out the facts for yourself.
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I'll save KINAV8R the trouble. Here is a copy of the post on the KA Standard Contract thread (for KA, read 'CX'), although comically they pay more than twice the amount of housing allowance than CX does. Copied below......
Having been on the standard contract for a couple of years now, I have realised that I made a terrible mistake...and now i regret it....
I was lured at the prospect of working for a legacy airline, one that provided a full package that would enable myself and my family to live comfortably in a vibrant city like hong kong. I, like many others in my position, looked at the remuneration package KA had to offer and jumped at the opportunity. I was ignorant. I researched the price of living in HK and thought to myself, although it wasn't extravagant, we could manage in the hope that my salary would increase year upon year and the company would reward us with pay rises in time.
Boy was I wrong. No pay increase in the past 2 years while the price of living here has gone up 25% in the time i have been here. Rents are ridiculous...and the price of education has gone through the roof. Forget trying to send your child to a decent school as the debentures to get into anything comparable to the standard we are used to in Europe will not be covered by the company. ESF school rates have also sky rocketed. Independent schools obviously charge more.
The company gives us a special allowance of HK$21,300 for FO's and HK$32,000 for skippers. They do not call it a housing allowance (although everyone uses it to pay rent) because they know that it does not cover rental costs in HK, unless of course you live in a 500 sq ft apartment in DB or Tung Chung. The special allowance does not cover rentals for a family sized apartment.
The medical insurance is also sub standard and we have been trying to push for improvement for many years now with meagre results.
The rosters are about the most unstable I've ever seen of any company. There is absolutely no stability in rostering and you will switch from early shifts to late shifts within the same week. You cannot plan anything on a day that you have to work. They OWN you on that day, regardless if you are doing earlies or lates.
The seniority system is a farce. Bidding for flights or vacation is not transparent and is only based on your first attempt. A second attempt at a bid will leave you in the same bidding pool as everyone else so where is seniority considered if you fail to gain any leave or flight pattern on the 1st attempt?
Whilst my overall wages are higher than my previous job, I am saving much less because of the high living costs in Hong Kong. Sure, I came here with EYES WIDE OPEN...but no amount of research can prepare you until you actually come here and see how expenses mount.
If you are single and plan on staying that way, the standard COS will be adequate and you'll live a humble life renting a small apartment...maybe a girlfriend or two....but if she gets pregnant and you decide to raise a family...don't expect to live the lifestyle that you are used to back home.....my guess is you'll take the free rating and go back home...something I am in the process of doing at the moment.
Having been on the standard contract for a couple of years now, I have realised that I made a terrible mistake...and now i regret it....
I was lured at the prospect of working for a legacy airline, one that provided a full package that would enable myself and my family to live comfortably in a vibrant city like hong kong. I, like many others in my position, looked at the remuneration package KA had to offer and jumped at the opportunity. I was ignorant. I researched the price of living in HK and thought to myself, although it wasn't extravagant, we could manage in the hope that my salary would increase year upon year and the company would reward us with pay rises in time.
Boy was I wrong. No pay increase in the past 2 years while the price of living here has gone up 25% in the time i have been here. Rents are ridiculous...and the price of education has gone through the roof. Forget trying to send your child to a decent school as the debentures to get into anything comparable to the standard we are used to in Europe will not be covered by the company. ESF school rates have also sky rocketed. Independent schools obviously charge more.
The company gives us a special allowance of HK$21,300 for FO's and HK$32,000 for skippers. They do not call it a housing allowance (although everyone uses it to pay rent) because they know that it does not cover rental costs in HK, unless of course you live in a 500 sq ft apartment in DB or Tung Chung. The special allowance does not cover rentals for a family sized apartment.
The medical insurance is also sub standard and we have been trying to push for improvement for many years now with meagre results.
The rosters are about the most unstable I've ever seen of any company. There is absolutely no stability in rostering and you will switch from early shifts to late shifts within the same week. You cannot plan anything on a day that you have to work. They OWN you on that day, regardless if you are doing earlies or lates.
The seniority system is a farce. Bidding for flights or vacation is not transparent and is only based on your first attempt. A second attempt at a bid will leave you in the same bidding pool as everyone else so where is seniority considered if you fail to gain any leave or flight pattern on the 1st attempt?
Whilst my overall wages are higher than my previous job, I am saving much less because of the high living costs in Hong Kong. Sure, I came here with EYES WIDE OPEN...but no amount of research can prepare you until you actually come here and see how expenses mount.
If you are single and plan on staying that way, the standard COS will be adequate and you'll live a humble life renting a small apartment...maybe a girlfriend or two....but if she gets pregnant and you decide to raise a family...don't expect to live the lifestyle that you are used to back home.....my guess is you'll take the free rating and go back home...something I am in the process of doing at the moment.
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Trafalgar,
you sound more bitter by the day.
If you honestly think that 150 k income would result in living on 500 sqft you are either a lyer or an imbecile. Your pick.
PS I say again: I would NOT accept the contract. But, dear Trafalgar, why do you hate the truth so much? Why don't you trust in the judgement of a colleague who is simply asking a simple question?
you sound more bitter by the day.
If you honestly think that 150 k income would result in living on 500 sqft you are either a lyer or an imbecile. Your pick.
PS I say again: I would NOT accept the contract. But, dear Trafalgar, why do you hate the truth so much? Why don't you trust in the judgement of a colleague who is simply asking a simple question?
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Again, who's 'truth'? I have my opinion, you have yours (unless you go and delete it because it was imbecilic and accusatory). And btw, i'm not bitter, just not willing to let the management of CX have a free ride on the backs of their hard working staff. I don't need to be an apologist for an incompetent management who have treated their staff abominably. Anyone who has been here for long enough has seen the cynical, contemptuous and intimidatory way that our management has gone about hollowing out this airline, and devaluing our profession. If you want to try and excuse that, again, you are entitled to your opinion. I am quite satisfied with pointing out the decrepitude of our management and the damage they have done to everyone who has committed their careers to this company. Others, apparently like yourself, seem to have a perverse need to try and rationalise their behaviour.