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Good luck surviving in HK on CX pilot pay scales.

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Good luck surviving in HK on CX pilot pay scales.

Old 24th Apr 2017, 23:43
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Good luck surviving in HK on CX pilot pay scales.

A good article from one of HK's more insightful writers. Take particular note of the cost of education and housing. You will never own a home, and your children will suffer...

Hong Kong’s a rip-off, even if you’re rich

Rising costs of rent and education are making the city unaffordable. And that’s not going to change as long as bureaucrats are running the show

PUBLISHED : Monday, 24 April, 2017, 7:30am


Peter Guy

29 Mar 2017

It is said that the rich man thinks only about money. But, in truth it is the poor man who can think of nothing else.
In “Asia’s (most expensive) world city”, you would be surprised who considers themselves to be poor. You can’t measure or hide behind anecdotal evidence showing the deteriorating quality of Hong Kong’s basket of economic goods that constitute quality of life.
If well paid locals and expatriates who work directly or indirectly in financial services are relocating because they can’t keep up with housing and education costs, then how difficult it must be for average citizens
A locally based senior executive at an international asset manager, frustrated at paying HK$68,000 a month for a flat in Aberdeen for his wife and two kids, decided to move to the suburbs of Taipei where he could afford to rent a house with a garden – and a better quality of life. He travels most of the week, but returning to Taipei is only an hour’s trip. As he said, “Living costs just devoured most of my basic salary each year in Hong Kong.”
Then, an Australian real estate executive told me he can’t keep up with Hong Kong’s insatiable for-profit education system that forces you to deposit about HK$2 million to HK$3 million in school debentures years before a child even enters school. Worst of all, he felt many of the Hong Kong private schools were really no better than free, public schools in Australia.
Hong Kong the world’s priciest home market for the seventh year
When a senior American manager of a global brokerage was finally appointed as the head of Asia, he immediately relocated his family and the head office to Singapore – “for the educational sake of my kids.” He was “tired of paying tuition increases every year for local private schools who were clearly raising fees without offering any new facilities or teaching value.” He believed Singapore’s private schools were more stable.
The semblance of quality of economic life appears to be cracking in Hong Kong. If well paid locals and expatriates who work directly or indirectly in financial services are relocating because they can’t keep up with housing and education costs, then how difficult it must be for average citizens.

One argument comes from those who say Hong Kong has always been an economic pressure cooker that breeds struggle. It’s never been cheap to live and operate here – but now, for many years running, Hong Kong has become relatively and absolutely expensive.
Hong Kong used to boast about its ‘wild west’, free market. Now after eight years of setting records, the real estate market still refuses to turn down.
Hong Kong’s famous free market and ‘positive non-interventionist’ government policy have evolved into their own brand of free-market failure
But Hong Kong’s famous free market and “positive non-interventionist” government policy have evolved into their own brand of free market failure. As Marx described, the end game of capitalism is when capitalists, with the unwitting aid of government, become oligarchs through greater economic concentration. And the outcome of the proletarian revolution is wealth redistribution.
However, the rich and powerful, as Marx observed in his time, as today, are incapable of reforming or giving in.
Regina Ip Lau Suk-yee, a former chief executive candidate, certainly painted a bleak, but realistic picture to me in a Feburary interview. “You need a more reformist leader, not a bureaucrat to make significant changes. You need outsiders with a firebrand approach. Bureaucrats have been part of the system for too long and they are reluctant to change. Bureaucrats rarely take controversial positions.”
Thus, since 1997 the Hong Kong government has turned out to be quite restricted and circumscribed in its policies and powers despite the Basic Law. It maintains economic and social order through a century-old model that integrates the colonised into government power, while still keeping the colonial subjects in their place. By refusing them the ability to implement economic reforms, Hong Kong people can prosper in Chinese territory, but they can never truly be citizens.
Trafalgar is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2017, 04:24
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Standing by for a brushwinger to say it's not that expensive.
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 04:29
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Is it really that bad in HK?
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 04:40
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It's why the kids came onto the streets with their yellow umbrellas.
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 06:12
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It's important to make the potential new CX snowflakes aware of all the relevant facts. I am providing a public service.
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 06:24
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I don't disagree with your message, but do you think calling them snowflakes is a good way to get them to respect your opinion?
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 06:35
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If they can't even stand being labeled a 'snowflake', I don't think too much of their ability to learn and lead. Basically, the mere fact they may be 'offended' by the term only confirms that they are, in fact, a 'snowflake'. (and i'm not particularly concerned if they 'respect' my opinion).
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 07:07
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The fact that a 'name' is all it takes to get you riled up to that degree is all the proof of my point. And btw, you have no idea what my own context of the word 'snowflake' is. It's your self anointed definition that is all to obvious by your comments. I might add that my own thoughts on the profession today, and the people it attracts are largely formed by what I see daily around me. You can dislike 'grumpy old codgers', but they are the ones who have the experience and longevity to legitimately analyse what the 'state of the nation' is in the industry today.
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 08:05
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Obviously the way to survive on CX pay scales is to become a trainer, and get that sweet sweet training bonus
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 08:32
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Traf,

which part of "market forces" don't you understand ?
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 09:12
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....the part where you sell your talents for pennies on the dollar...? Oh, wait....no, I figured that out decades ago. You?
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 09:51
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Ok, let me explain " market forces" to you.

Slowly.


First you look at your OPTIONS.

Then you COMPARE those options.

Then you make a DECISION.



Now, let's practise with an example!


You are a 20-30 year old First Officer at a Commuter Airline in South Africa.

Because you are from South Africa, you hold a South African Passport.

All clear until now? Easy. Step by step, we are getting there.

Now compare your options.

Option A

You can stay where you are. Your salary is about 20 000 HK$ after tax, you are based in Joburg ( your family and friends are in Cape Town). Occasionally you are a bit worried about crime and the general political situation, just a tiny little bit. Your career chances are sort of limited, you fly 90 hrs short haul, and your company laid off a third of their pilots last year.

Option B

You can join Cathay Pacific. Your starting salary is 3 times as much, you wife can work as an English teacher with an additional salary of 20 k, you live in a 2 bed DB for 18 k. A bit small, yes, but you kind of enjoy walking outside without getting mugged. Also you find a layover in Paris slightly more relaxing then in Lagos.

Option C

You can join EK. Your salary is less than at Cathay, your work load is significantly higher, your living cost are roughly the same.



Now, please, with sugar on top, understand:

No answer you are about to give that contains the words " should have, would have or could have" are valid arguments.

The mean thing about market forces are:

you have to make a decision based on your options in the real world, ok? You got that?

I say it again: The REAL world.
Sam Ting Wong is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2017, 10:11
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The cost of living is substantially less in Dubai than HKG with a 1500sqft 3BR apartment provided for free OR you can buy your own with EK's housing allowance for a fraction of the price in Tung Chung or DB without the extra stamp duty.

...and you are closer to your family in RSA.

A no brainer really for anyone on C or D scale.
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 10:14
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Sure, Aquis. Dubai is the land of milk and honey. Buahahahaha.

By the way, you cannot buy in Dubai because the cash option is not offered anymore.

Your dream flat-for-free is in the dessert in some concentration camp/ compound.

Cost of living are NOT significant cheaper in Dubai if you accept a smaller flat.

What advantage has it to be 4 hours closer to home if you have 9 days off ( not in a row), you fly 100 hrs and can't commute anyway?

Your ignorance is beyond belief.

Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 25th Apr 2017 at 10:31.
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 10:14
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Fascinating story by the way, Normanton.
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 10:18
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Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong View Post
Sure, Aquis. Dubai is the land of milk and honey. Buahahahaha.
I never said that - all I said was that the cost of living is cheaper than HKG and that it would be easier to get into the market with more bang for your buck.

But how would you know...I believe you are on the 777 hence you haven't been to DXB in years.
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 11:39
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I don't disagree with your message, but do you think calling them snowflakes is a good way to get them to respect your opinion?
Maybe not, but it's a great way to illustrate the level of respect they will be getting from their employer and colleagues.
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 19:02
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Hong Kong and Dubai are not long term options. (for a family of 4)

C Scale at CX and 90+ hours at EK....

Take the job if you don't have other options though.
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 22:48
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So why cant CX offer a commuting contract like ANA or Korean? Seems like a win-win no? 13 days off, good quality of life back home. Wife and kids are happy. And CX saves a bunch of money on housing and education subsidies. Whats the problem with that?
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 22:57
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That's what I used to say regarding this lot for over a quarter of a century. But now, CX is attracting lots of 'shiny jetters' and South Africans desperate to get out of their dysfunctional homeland so maybe the company feels they don't need to. Housing 'subsidy' is significantly lower and education allowance is now non-existent. Both these groups are flying for peanuts and accepting living conditions in Hong Kong on the offered terms, there are plenty of trainers voluntarily diluting their own contract and training them up to standard, so on the whole, the jets are being crewed.

So now, where is the incentive for them to offer commuting or bases? CX could'n't care less whether wives or family are 'happy' unless a critical mass of pilots vote with their feet and leave for that reason, and that hasn't happened so far. And senior (read 'expensive') crew who leave are replaced with the trained-up 'cheapies' so it is actually win-win for the company.

Last edited by Captain Dart; 25th Apr 2017 at 23:47.
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