May 31st
ppsept15
There is no industrial action being taken place by the workforce, different to Qantas. People are still flying aircraft, and training is continuing at a high tempo. Just look at the recent Friday update where they indicated how much training they had achieved in readiness for the A50 and 787-F.
The other difference with Qantas is the lockout provisions are embedded in the Fair Work Act to protect employers, the FWA has on the other side a lot of protections for employees which we don't have in HKG. The Australian EBA started and was concluded because of the FWA framework forced to company to actually negotiate in real good faith. While in HKG management make threats to staff for working to the contract that the company offered them to sign, and delays "good faith" negotiations to a point where they just force unilateral reductions in people's contracts and has the cheek to say it was their fault.
There is no industrial action being taken place by the workforce, different to Qantas. People are still flying aircraft, and training is continuing at a high tempo. Just look at the recent Friday update where they indicated how much training they had achieved in readiness for the A50 and 787-F.
The other difference with Qantas is the lockout provisions are embedded in the Fair Work Act to protect employers, the FWA has on the other side a lot of protections for employees which we don't have in HKG. The Australian EBA started and was concluded because of the FWA framework forced to company to actually negotiate in real good faith. While in HKG management make threats to staff for working to the contract that the company offered them to sign, and delays "good faith" negotiations to a point where they just force unilateral reductions in people's contracts and has the cheek to say it was their fault.
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Running a lock out against employees and mounting a strong arm industrial campaign requires a head strong, confident figurehead who is very good at public and media manipulation.
And I give you Ivan..
And I give you Ivan..
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have noticed that many of the local HK pilots, do not seem to be as angry as the westerners. And I would put this down to being born and raised in a country where companies effectively do that they want, constrained only by supply and demand, and with only the most basic of employee protections.
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That's grossly unfair.
FWIW, many locals think you're a smelly, arrogant and self centered pr1ck.
If you took the time to learn Cantonese and engage with them, you'll find them to be no different to any of your mates.
FWIW, many locals think you're a smelly, arrogant and self centered pr1ck.
If you took the time to learn Cantonese and engage with them, you'll find them to be no different to any of your mates.
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Doesn't matter what they come up with on the 31st- the job on a base is already uncommutable= unsustainable so I have to find something else. There are already people on the base leaving aviation for good.
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I believe they were actually very close to a deal a few days ago. But there has been a hitch due to an issue unrelated to the current negotiations that was dug up solely by the leader of our union, unbeknownst to the rest of the GC, which now threatens it all.
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Increased Decent. That is UTTER BS. And you know it. Do you honestly think that the leader of the AOA, on his own, outside of the entire NC would "at the last minute" inject an issue that is designed to collapse a possible deal? You are a travesty. The AOA has been negotiating with integrity, honour and commitment. The company was NEVER interested in a deal. We will react accordingly. You are nothing but a pathetic company plant.
Curtain Rod: Total agreement with your post. The rest of the membership, time to realise the harsh reality of the immoral and narcissistic managers who will ruin your lives if we let them. Stand up to their threats and aggressive tactics. June 1st. Let them KNOW what a deadline really means.
Curtain Rod: Total agreement with your post. The rest of the membership, time to realise the harsh reality of the immoral and narcissistic managers who will ruin your lives if we let them. Stand up to their threats and aggressive tactics. June 1st. Let them KNOW what a deadline really means.
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Haha, okay. Keep your hat on.
I have as little faith in the company and their tactics, good will, morals or general decency as the next man. I'm sure they had / have as many plans of sabotage as they can possibly muster. I must be a company plant, however, as I am stating well sourced information that doesn't point the entirety of blame on them.
I have the utmost respect for the collective AoA volunteers, we all know how hard they have been working and the circumstances with which they deal with. I was never questioning their collective integrity, particularly those on the NC doing some of the direct dealing. It's the actions of some select individuals that may jeapordise the well placed efforts of many. The AoA isn't perfect, nor are they expected to be, opinions vary, tactics vary, and so do personal agendas. Sorry if that outlook is too realistic for you.
Regardless, I would hazard a guess that the chances of a deal being forthcoming in the next weeks are higher than the contrary.
If it falls through, the June 1st fireworks will still be fun to watch.
I have as little faith in the company and their tactics, good will, morals or general decency as the next man. I'm sure they had / have as many plans of sabotage as they can possibly muster. I must be a company plant, however, as I am stating well sourced information that doesn't point the entirety of blame on them.
I have the utmost respect for the collective AoA volunteers, we all know how hard they have been working and the circumstances with which they deal with. I was never questioning their collective integrity, particularly those on the NC doing some of the direct dealing. It's the actions of some select individuals that may jeapordise the well placed efforts of many. The AoA isn't perfect, nor are they expected to be, opinions vary, tactics vary, and so do personal agendas. Sorry if that outlook is too realistic for you.
Regardless, I would hazard a guess that the chances of a deal being forthcoming in the next weeks are higher than the contrary.
If it falls through, the June 1st fireworks will still be fun to watch.
Last edited by increase.descent; 30th May 2016 at 16:50.
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Increased Decent. That is UTTER BS. And you know it. Do you honestly think that the leader of the AOA, on his own, outside of the entire NC would "at the last minute" inject an issue that is designed to collapse a possible deal? You are a travesty. The AOA has been negotiating with integrity, honour and commitment. The company was NEVER interested in a deal. We will react accordingly. You are nothing but a pathetic company plant.
[Stuff to CR edited out as it's not relevant to the question.]
June 1st. Let them KNOW what a deadline really means.
[Stuff to CR edited out as it's not relevant to the question.]
June 1st. Let them KNOW what a deadline really means.
STP
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With any luck June 1st will mean that training will be outsourced to circumvent the training captain ban. The asinine C&T empire could finally be decimated or even dismantled forever. Some sort of normal training system could replace the whole thing. Here's hoping.
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Thanks Trafalgar, you've answered my question. So, as you don't actually know that there wasn't "a hitch due to an issue unrelated to the current negotiations that was dug up solely by the leader of our union" you reveal yourself to be no different from increase.descent, putting forward hearsay and speculation as fact.
Like increase.descent, I'm leery of company tactics and misinformation campaigns, but I've been around long enough to know that we're not exactly paragons of virtue in that regard. Propaganda is alive and well on both sides of this divide and it's just as easy for you to say:
as it is for increase.descent to say:
It was alleged that Tony Blair "misrepresented" intelligence to secure approval for the Iraq War and look where the unintended consequences of that distortion of the "facts" has placed the world.
Honestly, until I see a signed joint statement from the company and the AOA as to the final position, I'm keeping an open mind. However, I doubt that will ever be forthcoming if either side is telling little porkie pies but it would enable the membership, once and for all, to decide how to face the future.
STP
Like increase.descent, I'm leery of company tactics and misinformation campaigns, but I've been around long enough to know that we're not exactly paragons of virtue in that regard. Propaganda is alive and well on both sides of this divide and it's just as easy for you to say:
The AOA has been negotiating with integrity, honour and commitment. The company was NEVER interested in a deal.
however, as I am stating well sourced information that doesn't point the entirety of blame on them.
Honestly, until I see a signed joint statement from the company and the AOA as to the final position, I'm keeping an open mind. However, I doubt that will ever be forthcoming if either side is telling little porkie pies but it would enable the membership, once and for all, to decide how to face the future.
STP
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Trafalgar and STP,
This is a rumour network after all,
so I have no problem hearing that anything I say, or anyone else says, would be treated as anything other than "utter bs".
Might I suggest that if you have the option available to you, you have a quiet sit down with your nearest NC or GC member to see if they have an opinion on my bs. That will be about as close to the truth as you can get.
This is a rumour network after all,
so I have no problem hearing that anything I say, or anyone else says, would be treated as anything other than "utter bs".
Might I suggest that if you have the option available to you, you have a quiet sit down with your nearest NC or GC member to see if they have an opinion on my bs. That will be about as close to the truth as you can get.
Last edited by increase.descent; 31st May 2016 at 05:30.
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Under the bus
The company needs a deal. They can say it is appropriate to "consolidate" but that is due to lack of crew not economics. They must reach a negotiated settlement and get contract compliance and the training ban lifted.
Therefore, today, them must negotiate in good faith. They are not fools and they will not give in easily or cheaply. But a settlement will be reached. They players will enjoy Manila until the champagne is opened.
However, the union has a history of throwing one group under the bus to secure a deal for another group. An unfortunate reality of representing a diverse group with divergent priorities. Should anyone be surprised if Rod injected a last minute bomb shell into the mix? We all have our personal agendas and emotional issues and yet still act in ways we perceive as professional.
CC is about RP. Period. If a RP agreement is achieved then CC goes away. We may choose and vote on a follow-on CC for some other justifiable reason.
What other old outstanding issue are we complaining about? A B or C scale? O days? 5-4-3? 55 or 65? Compact rosters? A days?
Therefore, today, them must negotiate in good faith. They are not fools and they will not give in easily or cheaply. But a settlement will be reached. They players will enjoy Manila until the champagne is opened.
However, the union has a history of throwing one group under the bus to secure a deal for another group. An unfortunate reality of representing a diverse group with divergent priorities. Should anyone be surprised if Rod injected a last minute bomb shell into the mix? We all have our personal agendas and emotional issues and yet still act in ways we perceive as professional.
CC is about RP. Period. If a RP agreement is achieved then CC goes away. We may choose and vote on a follow-on CC for some other justifiable reason.
What other old outstanding issue are we complaining about? A B or C scale? O days? 5-4-3? 55 or 65? Compact rosters? A days?