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19 pages of drivel

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

19 pages of drivel

Old 25th Feb 2016, 04:08
  #61 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 410
A lot of good ideas here, but I think ron burgandy has nailed it.

The best way forward would be for everyone permanently to be in Stage 1.

5 in 12 or 6 in 15 months. And never accept an "interview" without it being put on your roster.
OK4Wire is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2016, 04:39
  #62 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 367
Okay guys it's time to stop bashing the C&T Captains . At least they had the guts to sign the letter which is a lot more than most of us have done
We still have crew members working on G days ,answering the phone and helping out when they can . So instead of numerous flights being cancelled they continue to operate .
Extensions of Duty Times is another example of crews helping out aka the diversion to Copenhagen especially with 3 man ops
The AOA has once again failed to sort these issues out with their members
oriental flyer is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2016, 05:35
  #63 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 4
Actually, oriental flyer, it's time to turn up the heat on C&Ters. They are enabling a very broken system. Most of them would improve their lifestyle if they stepped away from training.
cxorcist is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2016, 08:18
  #64 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Asia
Posts: 127
Oriental Flyer,

The C&T captains are facilitating the demise of their own conditions! They are training pilots that will replace them on hugely inferior contracts, what happens when all these HKPA pilots are the majority?

Do I need to spell it out for you and for them????

Not only should nobody join training, there needs to be mass resignations from C&T. Pilots with a few years to go before retirement will not likely be affected but I cannot understand the younger guys in the C&T department. They are actively degrading their future conditions and are too blind or stupid to realize it.
Dilbert68 is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2016, 08:59
  #65 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: HKG 'visitor'
Posts: 288
Guys and Gals, perhaps we should refrain from eating our young [and old C&T'ers]. The agenda just doesn't warrant it.
Do your job. Honour your contract. Be fit for duty.
This 'new' sickness management programme reflects management desperation; it's a total non event for us. Relax.
spleener is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2016, 09:27
  #66 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 65
Posts: 686
Discretion for me has always been a consensus thing. Decision is made for the reason Curtain mentioned, for the benefit of the crew not the beanies.

First 20 years, never a sick day. I now have no compunction in using CC to push back against rostering and have yet to be carded.

I think we all need to chill a bit and let nature take its course. There will always be the slippery pole climbers. Frankly the more of them that get into mgt positions in fltops the quicker this mess will be resolved.

Like many of the old-timers who have been in C&T, me thunks that is not where our focus should be. I think it is fair to say a majority do it for altruistic reasons and do not believe it is facilitating our own demise but more to save on body bags.

Focus on the main game which is proving current management is incapable of crewing the current fleet and schedule with competent crews.
VR-HFX is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2016, 13:09
  #67 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: hong kong
Posts: 397
Speaking of C&T's anyone see the STC the other day operating 257 as a request ! Thats right folks, requested a 3 man as a REQ ! So when this trial is over and normal policy , the powers that be will say ' well , we actually people REQUESTING 3 man flights'
Well $100 he signed that letter .....👍
goathead is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2016, 14:30
  #68 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 43
Posts: 977
I think it is fair to say a majority do it for altruistic reasons and do not believe it is facilitating our own demise but more to save on body bags.
If there are people doing it for this reason they need to have their head examined. Constant reductions of training sectors, sims etc. Hiring more low experienced bods to fill seats, training maxed out. This needs to come to a head, the sooner the better. By facilitating this system it allows it to continue in its present form. If it truly is the majority doing it for altruistic reasons they should all quit training to bring this madness to an end. That truly would be for the greater good.
SloppyJoe is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2016, 15:28
  #69 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 673
There are people requesting 257 because of the long layover and they can head home for q couple of nights. Doesn't help the cause unfortunately but doesn't surprise me in the slightest that people are requesting it.

As for the trainers, is it ok that locals go into training because they are training new joiners who are on the same contract as them instead of being "cheap replacements"? That's the theory right?
geh065 is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2016, 17:53
  #70 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Over There
Posts: 745
Very well said Shep.
cpdude is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2016, 02:31
  #71 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 285
The latest from one Checker who has had enough of a roster, so fluid it could have been printed on mud..was.."you resign from training and you resign from CX…until CC is sorted and the training ban removed..you remain glued to C&T.".
Pucka is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2016, 03:52
  #72 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Brexitland
Posts: 1,135
What a way to run an Airline! Surely the CAD would not approve of their representatives being "pressganged" and persuaded under threat to remain.
Arfur Dent is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2016, 05:47
  #73 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Kowloon
Posts: 289
Will there comes one day - no more schooling for your kids??

Soul planet is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2016, 12:21
  #74 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: hong kong
Posts: 397
" The latest from one Checker who has had enough of a roster, so fluid it could have been printed on mud..was.."you resign from training and you resign from CX…until CC is sorted and the training ban removed..you remain glued to C&T.".

$100 this rumour is being spread by the same checker who volunteered, no sorry I mean, REQUESTED 3 man to Little Britain
They will do anything to justify there means those A scale whoops I mean B scale checkers
goathead is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2016, 14:37
  #75 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2008
Location: HK
Posts: 103
Wondering why our Group Leaders are so much more concerned with our health and well being here in Cathay?

Knowing how highly they consider our Dragon Group "colleagues", (to the point of equal travel from DOJ across the group) was kind of wondering if our pilot friends over there at KA are feeling a bit left out, without this new updated "caring and concern" policy?

Seems a bit discriminatory really.

Last edited by anotherbusdriver; 26th Feb 2016 at 15:48.
anotherbusdriver is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2016, 15:19
  #76 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 1,804
Quite an effeminate swipe there anotherbusdriver.

Heard the saying keep your eye on the ball?
Gnadenburg is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2016, 15:42
  #77 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2008
Location: HK
Posts: 103
Not having a go at KA, but pointing out the discriminatory policy. Was meant in an ironic sense. As per their own admission that this policy is due to their great "concern for our health", if that were so, then why not concern themselves with the health of all their group pilots in HK.especially under light of recent circumstances. Clearly we all agree that this is not a policy about caring, or else my above statement would be justified.

Possibly should have just said, to be clear, wonder why our Group Leaders feel it is OK to discriminate across the Group.?. . To me, the fact that you guys over there in KA would probably enter CC if such a policy were imposed, highlights the fake management claims of concern, and highlights that it is an industrial intimidation policy, and being used against us for being in CC.

Last edited by anotherbusdriver; 26th Feb 2016 at 15:58.
anotherbusdriver is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2016, 15:59
  #78 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 464
Gnadenburg, you are not a cx employee so why do you comment other than to fan the fire as you have done in previous posts. Clearly you don't get it. This is not your typical trolling ground of staff travel upmanship. You don't belong here, this is professional pilot's stuff. The topic here does not affect you...yet.... but debates a crucial divide between the abilities of professional aircrew to exert their ability to self certify their fitness under what is legislated under the ANO's as opposed to a company mandate to "manage" the submitted ASR-F.
Yes you read that correctly, the company appointed office wallahs, those whom have never occupied the space forward of the flight deck door will decide whether is is reasonable that you have decided you are fatigued.
I await the legalities of such to be tested in a court of law but clearly the discourse is somewhat stratospheric for you so please grow up and save your juvenile comment for the soap opera topics that are your normal area of expertise because this one may well be a bit above your pay grade.
fire wall is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2016, 16:16
  #79 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Somewhere Smelly
Posts: 47
Another personnel policy alignment?

It may interest our CX colleagues to know that KA pilots can only self certify for 3 days. However, there is no 'absence management policy' in place that is accessible to the rank and file. I guess that is about to change.
Babbalito is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2016, 16:51
  #80 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 5
After giving this some thought, I have concluded (personal opinion) that this is a policy that has no hope of amounting to anything. Several reasons: 1) legal. Their own published words would certainly be found invalid/illegal in the first court they are addressed. 2) practical. The sheer administrative burden will bury it soon after it gets started. We should all be booking off sick with the slightest sign of a cold/fever/sniffle. 3) cost. the huge increase in Dr. visits will ramp up their costs very quickly. 4) regulatory. The CAD will be forced to intervene, as this will certainly be considered a mockery by all other first-world regulators. 5) integrity. I will truly enjoy looking at any manager they choose to 'interview' me and challenge him to question my private/personal health and my employment record to date. They will NOT want to be on the other side of the desk from me asking any inane questions from a rehearsed script. I think most of our managers are already horrified by the policy, and will quietly undermine it from the get-go. I know many/most of them, and with few exceptions, they are still pilots like us. Further, one of our own fleet managers has had his own recent experience with fatigue/illness and I suspect he is most certainly not going to allow any victimisation on his fleet.

This policy will be d.o.a. They are only trying to throw some intimidation out there, and we MUST throw it right back at them. Instead of going to work unfit/fatigued, now IS the time to ensure you validate our right to a fair and equitable sickness policy. The ONLY way to validate that is by exercising your right. They can stuff their 'stages' where the sun doesn't shine. I see this as the dying gasp of a discredited and desperate management. That's all it is.
mngmt mole is offline  

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