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Contract Compliance over HKPA

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Contract Compliance over HKPA

Old 29th Dec 2015, 03:07
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Germany
Posts: 3
Contract Compliance over HKPA

I would like nothing more than for every single pilot at CX to receive full expat benefits. Morally though, I can't see how anyone can justify CC over HKPA. I just can't understand why, when most of those who receive it, received nothing when they joined. It was introduced at a level of very approximately 25% of your basic salary. It was never promised, or in your contract and then taken away.

After negotiations CX agreed to increase the amount of HKPA by an average of almost 40% over three years. There are now calls for CC over HKPA. I agree that it is still short of an amount that provides adequate accommodation for a family accustomed to a western style house, but honestly how can you justify it?
Rumpelforeskin is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2015, 17:29
  #2 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Asia
Posts: 126
Wake Up

You obviously haven't been here very long. The more pilots that join on the woefully inadequate HKPA, the sooner CX will try to attack your expat benefits!

Yes most of us will either leave or go sick for months crippling the airline, BUT they may intend to take that on the chin with the long term goal of reducing costs ever more.

Ask an A-scaler what happened when the majority of pilots were on B-scale?
Dilbert68 is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2015, 20:32
  #3 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: H.K
Posts: 58
I haven't seen the HKPA crew stand up for anything and until We do there is no way we should do anything. Show some actions not just talk about it. This is what you signed up for and unless you do something nothing is gonna change and we aren't gonna back you.
Samsonite is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2015, 22:20
  #4 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Home
Posts: 142
Dilbert68, A scalers and B scalers joined knowing what they were getting, not joining and then complaining they want more because they're only getting what the company promised. I'm not here to debate the cost of living in HKG.
I'd also argue, as the place goes down the shitter, with no bases, punitive rostering, gazillions of D&G, etc, etc, most A and B scalers who joined turned down jobs with other legacy carriers - QF NZ BA etc. They joined this company thinking it was a good career move and most would, in hindsight, jump ship tomorrow to another legacy carrier if they could.
What's a CEP turning down? most have a basic high school education and wouldn't have a job anywhere but McDonalds with that. There is zero downside to taking a job at CX as a CEP fresh out of school. The rest of the world is hacking their way through Double degrees or a masters to get a starting package in their first job that's less than what a CEP with basically zero employable education gets. Why do you think every pilot at CX is trying to get his kids into the cadet program?
No offense, just saying. As a CEP you've been handed a flying career with zero cost, zero risk, zero stress, zero everything.
And you want more HKPA?
Anotherday is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2015, 22:20
  #5 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Fragrant Harbour
Posts: 33
Ah yes, let's create the largest divide possible between B scalers and C scalers. That's going to work out great for you guys when C scale is the majority

In the meantime I, a lowly HKPA recipient, will continue to support contract compliance over things like 25 year housing (I can't recall, was that around when you guys signed your contracts?) and voting no to pay deals deals that screw the US based guys even though I have virtually no chance of ever holding one myself.

Christ, we're our own worst enemies!
hkgcanuck is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2015, 23:38
  #6 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London
Posts: 1,544
I will FULLY support the HKPA members in any action they deem appropriate to launch against the company. The vast majority of them are being taken advantage of by the company, and further, many if not all were led to HK on the basis of a cleverly deceptive package that ensured most were not aware of the full costs and consequences of living here. The other conceit of the company is the suggestion that all the cadets are 'local'. A cadet from North America or Aus/NZ/SA is NOT local. Many of the local locals have homes provided by parents here in HK. The non-local cadets do not enjoy that luxury, and therefore require a bit more in housing to compensate. The bottom line is this: no matter what contract they 'signed', they are entitled to a package that allows them to live comfortably and be able to plan and enjoy a normal life (wife/children/savings etc). Most of my senior colleagues feel the same.
Trafalgar is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2015, 23:44
  #7 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Tung Ghetto Chung
Posts: 44
Hkgcanuck, but sorry we are not in CC over 25 year housing or NA bases, so not sure what your point is?

You need to be aware that the company will call your bluff and not give you any increase in HKPA beyond this current offer. The management is happy to wait for this "massive" exodus of pilot to happen.
Frankly what is there to loose, HKPA hasn't changed in 6 years and people are lining up in their thousands to come and work here.

I know it's unrealistic to say this, but the reality is such that all you guys shouldn't have come here in the first place for the HKPA to really have a chance of getting back to something like a full housing scheme.

If you guys want to go into CC for HKPA, then I want B scale to go into CC for A scale terms and conditions.

I think you guys need to take this offer from the company, bank it and enjoy for a while and then in a few years push for more. What's the saying, Rome wasn't built in a day?
catpac is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2015, 23:55
  #8 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London
Posts: 1,544
Catpac: how can you be 'sure' the company won't improve the offer. It amazes me that many of us help the company by concluding what their final offer is. How do you know? How can you be sure that this isn't step 1 of a multi-step negotiating strategy? If you blindly insist that we can't get any more from them, and not even consider further industrial strategy, then why don't we all just close up shop now and go home? Don't give an inch of comfort to the management, and certainly don't declare that we are 'beaten'. As they say, Rome wasn't built....etc. The reality is that CC is slowly but SURELY strangling the company. Their operation is in chaos, they are cancelling thousands of flights per year and the training ban is crippling them. Now is NOT the time to throw in the towel. Support each and every member of our fraternity, and DON"T appear so ready to roll over and give up.
Trafalgar is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2015, 00:55
  #9 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Tung Ghetto Chung
Posts: 44
Trafalgar, thanks for your message. I'm not saying we throw in the towel and give up the fight. I'm saying this offer for HKPA should be given serious consideration as it is in some cases a 40% increase over the current setup. I truly feel that the management won't cave in and come back with a cent more. And that's exactly what they say as well.

This can of worms has been opened 6 or 7 years ago, the Union should have then gone into CC for offering such rock bottom benefits and also implement a recruitment ban...it's too late now, they're lining up in their thousands to come and fly a brand new 777 in the new livery

Also, we are not cancelling thousands of flights, yes a few here and there but it's not as dramatic as you say.
Rest assured we're making good money, load factors are high, cargo demand is okay-ish, recruitment targets are being met, the airline is just fine. If it wasn't for the fuel hedge mistake, and Paris fine, our profits would be close to the magic 8% return and we could be close to the profit share, but it's not to be for this year.

Happy new year!
catpac is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2015, 00:59
  #10 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: No where
Posts: 1
LAX alone has had almost 200 cancelled round trip patterns this year. That's just one port. As for the 'magic 8%' vis-a-vis profit share, CX can use whatever metric they wish to to justify screwing their employees. Their employees will react accordingly. CC is crippling them, they are desperately trying to convince us all otherwise. Don't be fooled, they are in a world of hurt and they are hoping they can bluff it out. Another 6 months or so (and yes, I know that seems a long time, but in comparison to a career it's a slip in time) and they will truly be on their arses. If we don't press home our efforts, sacrifice and advantage now, we will never again have the chance to change the direction of this sad and misguided ship. Don't waver, don't relent and NEVER give up belief in your cause. Please, don't make the company's arguments for them. We don't need to give the enemy a moment of comfort. Press on with our struggle, as it's the only thing that gives our moral viewpoint it's value.
Air Profit is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2015, 01:35
  #11 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: VHHH
Posts: 127

You are entitled to your opinion, but "most have a basic high school education and wouldn't have a job anywhere but McDonalds with that." is so far removed from the truth that it takes away all credibility from your post.
Guru is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2015, 04:05
  #12 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Home
Posts: 142
Guru, please credibly explain how all the 20 yr old CEPs have picked up a 4 or 5 year degree before joining CX.
University entry at age 13? The company doesn't want you qualified because the company isn't about to pay for any qualifications. It's that simple.
Anotherday is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2015, 06:42
  #13 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: HK- A little bit of industrial China in every breath you take.
Posts: 515
Cmon "Anotherday", you must remember Doogie Howser MD!

Lowkoon is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2015, 10:41
  #14 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 464
A rising tide raises all boats and so in that light I am happy to see any increase in benefits for any member of the pilot workforce.
However, to come to Hong Kong and sign a contract with inferior terms and then call for CC because you were too naive (and I'm being polite here) to listen to the howls of advice heralding such appalling terms is stupidity in all it's glory and shows for a second time that you have no concept of what a contract actually entails.

You entered into an agreement with CX of your own free will, now own it!
fire wall is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2015, 11:17
  #15 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: hong kong
Posts: 117

you surely are talking about the non-hongkongese right?? most of the local boys or girls have at least one undergraduate degree completed in a decent university from wherever they come back from....

I also happened to have come across a non-local who has a law degree from a pretty decent university in the UK....
hyg is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2015, 18:18
  #16 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: H.K
Posts: 58
The cadets have had their licenses given to them and then they come here wanting us to go on CC for them to get full housing too??? Anyone coming here had to do research to see if it was doable on the housing they were entitled too and they made that decision. None of them are leaving and it would take a lot to make the company change so either like it or leave it. I have been here quite a while and all that has happened is our conditions have gotten worse so cadets shouldn't expect to be the exception.
Samsonite is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2015, 01:01
  #17 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: hong kong
Posts: 397
Have another ' pint ' of kool aid brother
I signed for my B scale contract
It had nothing to do with the A scalers you little twot
goathead is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2015, 01:12
  #18 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Asia
Age: 39
Posts: 25

Why did you Cadets sign that awful contract with no housing allowance? We warned you. Did you really think the Company would increase the HKPA with inflation? How naive.

Why didn't you A/B scalers start a recruitment ban when the Company ended expat housing if you felt so strongly about it? Because you were gutless?

None of this mud slinging is helpful. Former cadets should be able to support themselves comfortably in Hong Kong after a serving their apprenticeships as SOs/JFOs.

Expats deserve to keep their housing allowance.

Neither of those things will happen if we don't work TOGETHER.

It's not that hard to understand is it? WE MUST STICK TOGETHER OR WE ARE ALL $CREWED.

Last edited by OneBarWonder; 31st Dec 2015 at 07:28.
OneBarWonder is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2015, 07:36
  #19 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: No where
Posts: 1
Guys. Stop emoting and rationalising. Stick together, fight for ALL to have proper housing (after all, our management enjoy proper housing). Stop fighting amongst ourselves. Fight as one unit, and put pressure on the compahy through CC on every level. We all deserve a good and confortable lifestyle in HK. Nothing esle will suffice.
Air Profit is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2015, 10:18
  #20 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 673
You lot are PATHETIC!

Last edited by geh065; 31st Dec 2015 at 19:19. Reason: Mi speling is atrowshious aparintylee
geh065 is offline  

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