Cathay or Dragonair?
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I think he adjusted his number to 17 or 18 for LHR out of 83 bids.
However, when USAB goes onshore and NYC opens up there will be not enough eligible pilots to fill the base, so my guess is that DEFO will be happening again for NYC.
However, when USAB goes onshore and NYC opens up there will be not enough eligible pilots to fill the base, so my guess is that DEFO will be happening again for NYC.
KA without a blink.
I'm not sure about an 18 month command but historically that is not unusual. It's probably now more achievable too, as the process has been the same for years. Command sim day one handling at a level expected at any other airline and day two a complex LOFT A to B, double failure, option is divert to C or D, but only one fits the failure criteria or airmanship norm's.
Gambling with your career as a map folding, bed making S/O in CX is silly when you could be learning your trade on a 320 belting around China. You'll be a competent airline pilot long before the CX guy has upgraded to F/O. You are more marketable too.
Gravitas is the CX pilot stealing a peek at your crutch in public when you're incognito without wings or braid. Bit weird for a few years but then it dawns upon you he's just checking your belt buckle to see if you work for KA or CX so as to determine social interactions and externalities. Gravitas.
I'm not sure about an 18 month command but historically that is not unusual. It's probably now more achievable too, as the process has been the same for years. Command sim day one handling at a level expected at any other airline and day two a complex LOFT A to B, double failure, option is divert to C or D, but only one fits the failure criteria or airmanship norm's.
Gambling with your career as a map folding, bed making S/O in CX is silly when you could be learning your trade on a 320 belting around China. You'll be a competent airline pilot long before the CX guy has upgraded to F/O. You are more marketable too.
Gravitas is the CX pilot stealing a peek at your crutch in public when you're incognito without wings or braid. Bit weird for a few years but then it dawns upon you he's just checking your belt buckle to see if you work for KA or CX so as to determine social interactions and externalities. Gravitas.
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Not according to I-cadet on the AOA forum who claims he is 7th or 8th in line for a LHR base!
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: HK- A little bit of industrial China in every breath you take.
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Hypothetical
Let's say at the end of 5 years, you decide to go home... For whatever reason, maybe you can't get your kids into an English speaking school, or you cant afford the debenture for an English speaking school, or the English speaking school you are "lucky" enough to get in to is $hite, or you simply want to live in a house, you might want your kids to know what grass is, and how it feels under their toes, you may want to afford to get married, or maybe your lungs have packed it in, pick any or all of the above... What will look better on your resume? 3 years 320 command, or 5 years of adjusting the jump seat, with no aircraft rating? From that perspective, looks like a "no brainer".
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Some Ting Wong,
If you're not some 10 yr old at home on his computer. You do know we have a seniority list? And you do know that list has pages and pages of F/Os senior to the latest Skipper. And you can figure out they didn't all ask not to do command.
I think that proves Rods estimation of how many actually get past the panel and make it to the left seat.
Maybe it's irrelevant when you're first joining, the 97% getting command at BA, while maybe 50% get command at CX. Maybe RHS wide body time to go elsewhere is all that matters.
If you're not some 10 yr old at home on his computer. You do know we have a seniority list? And you do know that list has pages and pages of F/Os senior to the latest Skipper. And you can figure out they didn't all ask not to do command.
I think that proves Rods estimation of how many actually get past the panel and make it to the left seat.
Maybe it's irrelevant when you're first joining, the 97% getting command at BA, while maybe 50% get command at CX. Maybe RHS wide body time to go elsewhere is all that matters.
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Hard fact from Apr seniority list, between seniority numbers 900 and 1000 there are 27 FOs. 15 of these FOs are on a base, which suggests that they are unlikely to have ever started a command course. Thus, from this single snapshot a possible failure rate of 12%. I accept there are going to be exceptions to my simple assumptions, but I'm sure that this is roughly the sort of accurate figure and does include second time round passes.
744
I think you will find the fair majority of these are in OZ and in biblical fashion on passover. Most are doing RAAF reserve which provides good supplementary income. My guess is that the only time they will come home to mama is when they think the guy in the LHS is a muppet or the kids have left home.
I think you will find the fair majority of these are in OZ and in biblical fashion on passover. Most are doing RAAF reserve which provides good supplementary income. My guess is that the only time they will come home to mama is when they think the guy in the LHS is a muppet or the kids have left home.
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honestly, something doesn't quite add up here.
Tom fills a kettle with water, Dick plugs in and switches the kettle on. Harry puts his hand inside the water while it's still cold enough, until a stage where it's getting unbearable, he shouts to Tom and Dick, "The Water is Hot! The Water is Hot, turn off the plug!!" Of Course Tom and Dick did not respond, and Harry kept his hand in the water.
So why doesn't Harry removes his hand from the kettle instead of leaving it inside the water , and keeps complaining as the water gets hotter? Does he want to wait till the water is boiling and his hand thoroughly cooked before he removes it? or do something about his situation before it gets worse?
Tom fills a kettle with water, Dick plugs in and switches the kettle on. Harry puts his hand inside the water while it's still cold enough, until a stage where it's getting unbearable, he shouts to Tom and Dick, "The Water is Hot! The Water is Hot, turn off the plug!!" Of Course Tom and Dick did not respond, and Harry kept his hand in the water.
So why doesn't Harry removes his hand from the kettle instead of leaving it inside the water , and keeps complaining as the water gets hotter? Does he want to wait till the water is boiling and his hand thoroughly cooked before he removes it? or do something about his situation before it gets worse?
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Is KA any where near fully manned, unlike the undermanned CX, as the old merger of both rumour is doing the rounds again and with the 350 manning problems and mangerment seeming to be very quiet, I just wonder? 
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merger smerger, it aint going to happen.
The rumour with some credibility is brand integration, i.e. Dragonair becomes Cathay Dragon just so CX can get it's brand better exposed in mainland China. Dragonair will remain Dragonair just with a different name, There will be no pilot merger. That opportunity has long gone.
Ka is still recruiting, commands are back down to two years BUT apparently CX has no plans for further KA growth. No new destination, no new aircraft, no nothing, any expansion over the next few years will be 2 to 3% and that will come from late night red eye flights to current destinations.
Even though KA is THE part of the business thats actually turning a profit at the moment it sounds like recruitment will grind to a halt shortly.
It would be nice if CX would sell KA to someone who had some vision. We are flying the oldest airbus in existence, whilst our competitors order 50 new aircraft at a stroke. KA gets 40% outer bays to CXs 1%. We are the poor cousin
No doubt about it.
Those planning to join KA. The future is uncertain. Do your homework
The rumour with some credibility is brand integration, i.e. Dragonair becomes Cathay Dragon just so CX can get it's brand better exposed in mainland China. Dragonair will remain Dragonair just with a different name, There will be no pilot merger. That opportunity has long gone.
Ka is still recruiting, commands are back down to two years BUT apparently CX has no plans for further KA growth. No new destination, no new aircraft, no nothing, any expansion over the next few years will be 2 to 3% and that will come from late night red eye flights to current destinations.
Even though KA is THE part of the business thats actually turning a profit at the moment it sounds like recruitment will grind to a halt shortly.
It would be nice if CX would sell KA to someone who had some vision. We are flying the oldest airbus in existence, whilst our competitors order 50 new aircraft at a stroke. KA gets 40% outer bays to CXs 1%. We are the poor cousin
No doubt about it.
Those planning to join KA. The future is uncertain. Do your homework
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Krone, the truck fell over because they extended it without putting the stabilizers down. Nothing to do with crew pushing back.
Giggerty, agreed, it is worrying times for KA, no orders, no expansion plans, potentially the oldest airbus fleet on earth, rudderless ship, managers out of the loop, and impotent senior exec managers not entrusted to make purchasing and planning decisions, offloading the engineering to CASL, getting rid of all the 'expensive' training equipment rather than spending a single cent to upgrade it, we are seeing penny pinching at unprecedented levels, it would be good advice to come in with your eyes wide open, and be prepared to do the same job being paid less than everyone else. That seems to be fine at the start, but by the second year of it, the bitter taste gets harder to swallow.
I would still prefer a command in the same time as it takes to get out of the jump seat, but when the music stops, and it looks from the order books to be stopping very soon. KA for the short term if you have an eye on getting out in 5-10. CX if you want a career, but are happy to do the job for less than everyone else does it for.
In 5 years in KA you will be a captain on some museum piece airbus
narrow body.
In 5 years in CX you will be an FO hoping you get a landing this month.
In ten years in KA you will be a captain, possibly training, but still on the same museum relic you trained on initially.
In ten years in CX you will trying to keep under the radar from the star chamber so you don't get s#it canned before your command training in the next few years.
In 20 years in KA you will sitting in an outer bay with no APU in hong kong waiting 8 hours for your Shanghai slot to come up.
In 20 years in CX you will be a 350 or 777 captain wondering why those cranky KA captains are arcing up on clearance delivery when you call ready for Paris.
Giggerty, agreed, it is worrying times for KA, no orders, no expansion plans, potentially the oldest airbus fleet on earth, rudderless ship, managers out of the loop, and impotent senior exec managers not entrusted to make purchasing and planning decisions, offloading the engineering to CASL, getting rid of all the 'expensive' training equipment rather than spending a single cent to upgrade it, we are seeing penny pinching at unprecedented levels, it would be good advice to come in with your eyes wide open, and be prepared to do the same job being paid less than everyone else. That seems to be fine at the start, but by the second year of it, the bitter taste gets harder to swallow.
I would still prefer a command in the same time as it takes to get out of the jump seat, but when the music stops, and it looks from the order books to be stopping very soon. KA for the short term if you have an eye on getting out in 5-10. CX if you want a career, but are happy to do the job for less than everyone else does it for.
In 5 years in KA you will be a captain on some museum piece airbus
narrow body.
In 5 years in CX you will be an FO hoping you get a landing this month.
In ten years in KA you will be a captain, possibly training, but still on the same museum relic you trained on initially.
In ten years in CX you will trying to keep under the radar from the star chamber so you don't get s#it canned before your command training in the next few years.
In 20 years in KA you will sitting in an outer bay with no APU in hong kong waiting 8 hours for your Shanghai slot to come up.
In 20 years in CX you will be a 350 or 777 captain wondering why those cranky KA captains are arcing up on clearance delivery when you call ready for Paris.
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In 20 years in KA you will sitting in an outer bay with no APU in hong kong waiting 8 hours for your Shanghai slot to come up.
In 20 years in CX you will be a 350 or 777 captain wondering why those cranky KA captains are arcing up on clearance delivery when you call ready for Paris.
In 20 years in CX you will be a 350 or 777 captain wondering why those cranky KA captains are arcing up on clearance delivery when you call ready for Paris.
I never thought of that. Next delay I'll be able to ask Delivery if I've got time to nip back to the lav (but that might put a confusing meaning to 'number two in the area').
Last edited by Captain Dart; 25th Jun 2015 at 02:00.
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KA
If you are flying a turboprob or military pilot looking for a free unbonded A320/330 rating to improve your career prospects then KA is the place for you.
Even better if you have 5000hrs and a willingness to work very hard you will find yourself with A320 PIC time to make you more attractive elsewhere rapidly.
The current contract will not supplement your military pension to keep you happy long term but there is very few opportunities out there to progress from a metroliner/military straight to an A330 or A320 and onwards to the LHS of an A320, this is one of them
Come, take as much training (and extremely hard checking) as you can get and then move off to pastures new.
Long-term = contract unviable for HK living with a family. That is the unfortunate fact above everything else. Renting an apartment big enough for a family is a non-runner with the current rental allowance. That is a tough fact. A house therefore will never be affordable.
Your family will last 2 years maximum living in Tung Chung while you're enjoying the sights and sounds of Beijing, Ningbo and Nanjing. Before you know it you'll be commuting back home to them whenever possible and visiting PPJN on the daily.
By all means come to KA, but with your eyes open.
KA Fleet age average A330 = 16 years.
CX Fleet age average A330 = 7 years
KA Fleet age average A320/321 = 11.3 years
Orders currently pending CX = MANY
Pending aircraft currently KA= 0
The only expansion planned in KA is to fly more through the night. If you enjoy flying two long sectors at night and sleeping during the day then KA is for you.
For the long term, probably best to go to CX. At least you won't feel like a poor old cousin.
Even better if you have 5000hrs and a willingness to work very hard you will find yourself with A320 PIC time to make you more attractive elsewhere rapidly.
The current contract will not supplement your military pension to keep you happy long term but there is very few opportunities out there to progress from a metroliner/military straight to an A330 or A320 and onwards to the LHS of an A320, this is one of them
Come, take as much training (and extremely hard checking) as you can get and then move off to pastures new.
Long-term = contract unviable for HK living with a family. That is the unfortunate fact above everything else. Renting an apartment big enough for a family is a non-runner with the current rental allowance. That is a tough fact. A house therefore will never be affordable.
Your family will last 2 years maximum living in Tung Chung while you're enjoying the sights and sounds of Beijing, Ningbo and Nanjing. Before you know it you'll be commuting back home to them whenever possible and visiting PPJN on the daily.
By all means come to KA, but with your eyes open.
KA Fleet age average A330 = 16 years.
CX Fleet age average A330 = 7 years
KA Fleet age average A320/321 = 11.3 years
Orders currently pending CX = MANY
Pending aircraft currently KA= 0
The only expansion planned in KA is to fly more through the night. If you enjoy flying two long sectors at night and sleeping during the day then KA is for you.
For the long term, probably best to go to CX. At least you won't feel like a poor old cousin.
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Would you like a start date for your new job before you quit your current job? Cathay will not give you one. Yes sure, you will be given a date for when your course starts in Adelaide, but at that stage you are not employed by Cathay - you are going through Cathay's 'sponsorship' to convert your licence and prepare you for the type-rating with an MCC type course, regardless of your previous experience.
Even though getting the job after the course in Adelaide might be considered a formality by some people, Cathay expect full commitment from you, of course, in quitting your job but in return they don't even give you a start date for your employment with them - just hope for the best I suppose.
Some companies start cadets on a lower pay scale than DE pilots, but at Cathay everyone starts on the same SO salary, which is considerably lower than FOs get. While the 'forgiveable loan' is extra cash that the short course new SOs receive, it doesn't change the fact that they start on the same very low basic salary and it is re-payable if you leave within 6 years.
To many Cathay may have more desirable rosters than Dragonair - better and more varied destinations and more time off. Yes, if you can look past the short-term, it is an appealing option to many. However, why should you have to take such a gamble in taking a job with a supposedly reputable 'world-class' airline? No actual employment offer, no proper type-rating, no handling at all (except in the sim), a backwards step in the short term as far as gaining proper experience is concerned. You will also have to agree to be financially liable for the TT course in Adelaide, should Cathay decide not to employ you!
Yes, lots of time off (which also means lots of time to spend your (lower) salary), but if something changes in 2-3 years and you need to get a job elsewhere, you won't be in the best position. Lose your medical in 3 years and you will have made the financial sacrifice of taking the SO salary with a longer term goal in mind. So, again, why should you have to take that gamble?
It comes down to what options are available, but that's why a lot of the guys going there come from air taxi/bush flying type jobs because they don't have as many alternative options to get into an airline. Most people with a fair amount of experience who are looking for opportunities abroad will be more tempted by the Middle East, where they are rewarded straight away without having to take the same initial gamble that Cathay expect you to take, even though the Middle East may be a less desirable place to live for those same people.
People who have other potential options that seem less risky, where their experience is valued and they are compensated better from the start will probably be much more reluctant to go for Cathay than people flying a Chieftain or Caravan around Africa.
I don't know the ins and outs of Dragonair but, while you might work harder in terms of days per month, you don't have that same gamble and risk (and lower salary) that Cathay expect you to take from the point you leave your current job and for the next few years as a cruise relief SO.
Even though getting the job after the course in Adelaide might be considered a formality by some people, Cathay expect full commitment from you, of course, in quitting your job but in return they don't even give you a start date for your employment with them - just hope for the best I suppose.
Some companies start cadets on a lower pay scale than DE pilots, but at Cathay everyone starts on the same SO salary, which is considerably lower than FOs get. While the 'forgiveable loan' is extra cash that the short course new SOs receive, it doesn't change the fact that they start on the same very low basic salary and it is re-payable if you leave within 6 years.
To many Cathay may have more desirable rosters than Dragonair - better and more varied destinations and more time off. Yes, if you can look past the short-term, it is an appealing option to many. However, why should you have to take such a gamble in taking a job with a supposedly reputable 'world-class' airline? No actual employment offer, no proper type-rating, no handling at all (except in the sim), a backwards step in the short term as far as gaining proper experience is concerned. You will also have to agree to be financially liable for the TT course in Adelaide, should Cathay decide not to employ you!
Yes, lots of time off (which also means lots of time to spend your (lower) salary), but if something changes in 2-3 years and you need to get a job elsewhere, you won't be in the best position. Lose your medical in 3 years and you will have made the financial sacrifice of taking the SO salary with a longer term goal in mind. So, again, why should you have to take that gamble?
It comes down to what options are available, but that's why a lot of the guys going there come from air taxi/bush flying type jobs because they don't have as many alternative options to get into an airline. Most people with a fair amount of experience who are looking for opportunities abroad will be more tempted by the Middle East, where they are rewarded straight away without having to take the same initial gamble that Cathay expect you to take, even though the Middle East may be a less desirable place to live for those same people.
People who have other potential options that seem less risky, where their experience is valued and they are compensated better from the start will probably be much more reluctant to go for Cathay than people flying a Chieftain or Caravan around Africa.
I don't know the ins and outs of Dragonair but, while you might work harder in terms of days per month, you don't have that same gamble and risk (and lower salary) that Cathay expect you to take from the point you leave your current job and for the next few years as a cruise relief SO.
Last edited by terd_ferguson; 27th Jun 2015 at 15:48.
MC. What your being told is all true so I won't repeat the obvious. Put simply, my package right now is good. I have a good , not extravagant but comfortable lifestyle, live in a nice home in a good part of town. The company give me a packet of cash to pay off my house and kids are grown up and no longer in the expensive Hk school system. But, you can't have what I have and that's the issue that is being past down to you. The company looks at DEFO's on the local contract as a means of filling seats quickly to cover expansion, it takes a long time to train up local cadets and many years to get them to command standard. They know that you won't be able to live here long term so will leave at some point to be replaced by a local who will never leave or complain about the contract, standard of hotels, allowances, overtime threshold etc.
So MC come on over, but don't ever bring up your shirty contract and complain that it's not fair that I earn more than you and try to justify that your being hard done by, coz if you do I won't let you touch my big shinning jet.
So MC come on over, but don't ever bring up your shirty contract and complain that it's not fair that I earn more than you and try to justify that your being hard done by, coz if you do I won't let you touch my big shinning jet.
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So on the current website for DragonAir they are advertising a starting salary of KHD75000 and allowance of HKD21000 monthly.
Two questions:
1: is that a housing allowance or total allowances ie overnights etc?
2: if it is a housing allowance, is it sufficient for a couple with no kids?
Two questions:
1: is that a housing allowance or total allowances ie overnights etc?
2: if it is a housing allowance, is it sufficient for a couple with no kids?